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Vegas P.R.O. Meeting (2 Viewers)

I been drag racing since I attended the US Nationals in 1958 at the tender age of 14. Climbed the fence and was hooked. 52 years later I've raced everything from a 53 ford 4-door automatic flathead to a AA/FD. Guess I'm done. Don't like much about it any more and sure didn't like 4-wide in person or on TV. Think I'll sell my SG nova and watch grass grow. It will be better than what we got now. That's a shame because there are no young guys to replace me so sooner or later thay will miss my $$ at the 4 or 5 national events I usually attend. When PRO collapsed like a $2.00 tent that was the final straw.
 
I do like Jon's take on a lot of the current situations that exist in Drag Racing.
I agree with him about 1000' foot racing and do want to see 1320' again but only when a total agreement between owners, drivers and NHRA deem it so!
The sooner the better in my book![/QUOTE]

That has and never will happen......................until the PRO truly unites and has a backbone, nothing and I mean nothing is going to change. The NHRA (I mean Bruton) has spoken, this is my sandbox, play by my rules or get out!
 
I’d like to make a few more points if I may.

Without meaning to upset anyone, Wayne Dirks, please remember that when you’re getting your “news” from an NHRA web site or publication you are reading propaganda. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with that as long as you bear in mind that it’s NHRA’s responsibility to paint themselves in the best light possible, so the odds are that you’re not getting the complete, unvarnished truth from them.

Let’s face it, it’s not in their best interests to completely report whatever took place regarding the decision to give four-wide racing another chance. To do so might open them to ridicule or question.

Karl, I remember how the latest incarnation of the PRO came about, which was about 20 years AFTER the two PRO/PRA races in Tulsa. I’m going to have to look into this, but as I recall it the first Tulsa race precluded running Indy at the same time due to the scheduling, but the second time around it was possible to run both, and some drivers did. I know as a journalist we flew back and forth between Indy and Tulsa to work both races.

This is the short version (consider it the Cliff Notes version), but it came about the year that the competitors still had electric clutch timers. Had to be around ’89. Gary Ormsby was still racing with Lee Beard as his tuner. NHRA had asked for a competitor vote on whether or not they wanted to allow electric clutch timers. The vote took place early in the spring of that year, when only Ormsby, Amato and Bernstein had the expensive timers. The vote was overwhelmingly against the continued use of them.

Unfortunately for the racers, in between the time the vote was taken and the end of the season two things happened. First, everyone, even the so-called “little guys,” had electric clutch timers by the time the Finals rolled around. Second, Graham Light had ascended to a position of power.

In the pits at the Finals the racers began discussing how they were all going to have to throw their electric timers away, or peddle them for pennies on the dollar to racers from Australia or Europe. Someone – and it may have been Frank Bradley – was tabbed to go to Graham to tell him everyone wanted to continue using the timers. Graham said no, probably in fear of knuckling under to the racers the first time they questioned something.

The racers retreated to Bradley’s rig back in the pits, and when they emerged the newest version of the PRO had been established.

Like, a lot of good it’s done them!

I’ll leave the FUCM story to someone else.

Bob, the nitro situation has potentially devastating results, but to my knowledge nitro’s been on the known carcinogen list for a long time.

In your next post you say you love drag racing but decry the way in which changes are introduced. You may have a point, but at the same time how would you suggest major changes be implemented? I’m asking because if we’re honest with ourselves we’ll admit that at the mere mention of a possible change many people will immediately be negative. It’s more the idea of a change than the change itself that concerns them.

John Waters, if you’re that disappointed by what you see in today’s drag racing then by all means do something else. You’ve admitted you don’t like much about it any more, and many of us empathize with you, BUT the drag racing the young people see today is the ONLY drag racing they know. To them it’s exciting, loud and exhilarating – and you are wrong in suggesting there’s no young people to replace you. They’re out there and drag racing needs them to survive. Those young people don’t have your history in the sport, so therefore have no negative comparisons to make. They never saw the Old Man run in his prime, they never saw Jungle, they never saw Sox & Martin, Jenkins and everyone else. To them Tony Schumacher and Ashley Force are superstars, and we shouldn’t begrudge them that.

Jon Asher
Senior Editor
Competitionplus.com
 
Registered member said:
I’d like to make a few more points if I may.

Without meaning to upset anyone, Wayne Dirks, please remember that when you’re getting your “news” from an NHRA web site or publication you are reading propaganda. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with that as long as you bear in mind that it’s NHRA’s responsibility to paint themselves in the best light possible, so the odds are that you’re not getting the complete, unvarnished truth from them.

Let’s face it, it’s not in their best interests to completely report whatever took place regarding the decision to give four-wide racing another chance. To do so might open them to ridicule or question.

Karl, I remember how the latest incarnation of the PRO came about, which was about 20 years AFTER the two PRO/PRA races in Tulsa. I’m going to have to look into this, but as I recall it the first Tulsa race precluded running Indy at the same time due to the scheduling, but the second time around it was possible to run both, and some drivers did. I know as a journalist we flew back and forth between Indy and Tulsa to work both races.

This is the short version (consider it the Cliff Notes version), but it came about the year that the competitors still had electric clutch timers. Had to be around ’89. Gary Ormsby was still racing with Lee Beard as his tuner. NHRA had asked for a competitor vote on whether or not they wanted to allow electric clutch timers. The vote took place early in the spring of that year, when only Ormsby, Amato and Bernstein had the expensive timers. The vote was overwhelmingly against the continued use of them.

Unfortunately for the racers, in between the time the vote was taken and the end of the season two things happened. First, everyone, even the so-called “little guys,” had electric clutch timers by the time the Finals rolled around. Second, Graham Light had ascended to a position of power.

In the pits at the Finals the racers began discussing how they were all going to have to throw their electric timers away, or peddle them for pennies on the dollar to racers from Australia or Europe. Someone – and it may have been Frank Bradley – was tabbed to go to Graham to tell him everyone wanted to continue using the timers. Graham said no, probably in fear of knuckling under to the racers the first time they questioned something.

The racers retreated to Bradley’s rig back in the pits, and when they emerged the newest version of the PRO had been established.

Like, a lot of good it’s done them!

I’ll leave the FUCM story to someone else.

Bob, the nitro situation has potentially devastating results, but to my knowledge nitro’s been on the known carcinogen list for a long time.

In your next post you say you love drag racing but decry the way in which changes are introduced. You may have a point, but at the same time how would you suggest major changes be implemented? I’m asking because if we’re honest with ourselves we’ll admit that at the mere mention of a possible change many people will immediately be negative. It’s more the idea of a change than the change itself that concerns them.

John Waters, if you’re that disappointed by what you see in today’s drag racing then by all means do something else. You’ve admitted you don’t like much about it any more, and many of us empathize with you, BUT the drag racing the young people see today is the ONLY drag racing they know. To them it’s exciting, loud and exhilarating – and you are wrong in suggesting there’s no young people to replace you. They’re out there and drag racing needs them to survive. Those young people don’t have your history in the sport, so therefore have no negative comparisons to make. They never saw the Old Man run in his prime, they never saw Jungle, they never saw Sox & Martin, Jenkins and everyone else. To them Tony Schumacher and Ashley Force are superstars, and we shouldn’t begrudge them that.

Jon Asher
Senior Editor
Competitionplus.com
Click to expand...

Asher, could a committee of say 3 drivers, 3 owners, 3 crew chiefs, 3 NHRA VP's, and 4 At-Large people work together to construct some outlines (guidelines/rules) that would benefit the entire Nitro racing community? What's your take as an insider on the current climate of the drivers, owners, crew chiefs and the NHRA on where our beloved sport is headed?
Thanks. Keep up the great work.
 
Registered member said:
John Waters, if you’re that disappointed by what you see in today’s drag racing then by all means do something else. You’ve admitted you don’t like much about it any more, and many of us empathize with you, BUT the drag racing the young people see today is the ONLY drag racing they know. To them it’s exciting, loud and exhilarating – and you are wrong in suggesting there’s no young people to replace you. They’re out there and drag racing needs them to survive. Those young people don’t have your history in the sport, so therefore have no negative comparisons to make. They never saw the Old Man run in his prime, they never saw Jungle, they never saw Sox & Martin, Jenkins and everyone else. To them Tony Schumacher and Ashley Force are superstars, and we shouldn’t begrudge them that.

Jon Asher
Senior Editor
Competitionplus.com
Click to expand...

Jon you are probably right about the young guys but I think somewhere between your opinion and mine is the truth. I have 4 grandson's who have been around drag racing all of their lives. What do they like best..TOILET BOWLERS for crying out loud.
When I discuss getting them involved in racing they declined the Jr. dragster program in favor of mini sprint dirt track cars. My point is (IMO) our sport is losing participants instead of gaining. They pits are filled with old gray beards like me but unlike years past not many young people come in unless they grew up in it with their fathers and grandfathers. Not much fresh blood that I can see. JMHO. By the way, thanks for your comments, you make may good points that are not always considered.
 
As I read through this thread, I had some thoughts that as best I can tell, have not been considered.
First, this is not as much of a slam dunk "loss" for PRO as most would surmise. Mr. Smith proclaimed his love for 4 wide racing and stated (implied) they would begin construction on Vegas immediately. It seemed at least those two tracks were going 4 wide, if not more and NOW. Now, we have one 4 wide race at one track next year. That is compromise.
Second, part of the damage was to Mr. Smith. He has indeed put up a great deal of money to try to expand our sport. Again, that appears to have been at least partially repaired with the "compromise" one race.
Finally, the attempt by PRO to organize some of the most independent, vocal, and opinionated people in the world is at best difficult. At its worst, it is like this incident. Before anyone can properly present the poll....IT IS LEAKED!!! Then, only a few days into this matter, an owner goes on this board (Virgil) and throws the whole mess under the bus saying 63-3 really doen't reflect how we feel and the head (former?) of PRO was just having a bad race. You should have another poll after the race and see how its changed!! That just is not a united front and the NHRA leadership knows that.

I have to admit that I agree with Virgil that after the race, as the drivers became more comfortable, a poll would probably have had different results. That being said, sometimes not saying something wrong is not the same as not saying.........

Be easy, I am not sure if my IMPACT firesuit is the real deal :)
 
Lets understand something clearly, Mr. Smith did not build that track to expand the sport. He did it to expand his wallet and to exercise his selfish ego. These guys can do what they want, but don't tell me that the sport of drag racing was his motivation whn it comes to spending his money.

I may look stupid, but I'm really not.;)
 
Randy Headley, your concept of a committee to address these issues isn’t new. What would be new is management being willing to even consider putting such a group together, and then showing a willingness to listen to them.

Numerous high-powered people in the industry have, at one time or another, approached NHRA about these very ideas, and not once has it been done. I know one prominent sponsor rep who advocated this kind of thing on an almost annual basis, and nothing ever came of it. It never does.

While this will be denied by Glendora, in all the years I’ve been doing this I’ve seen examples time and time again of NHRA being completely unwilling to listen to or accept guidance from anyone outside their own corporate hierarchy. In other words, the impression they leave you with is that if they didn’t think of it themselves, it’s not worth considering.

John Waters, your point about the kids preferring sprint cars to Jr. Dragsters is well taken, and I can certainly understand that: More time in the car actually driving.

One of the real problems here is, I think, the very cars we buy from Detroit (or wherever). When most of us started in drag racing the cars were simplistic and even a dolt like me could do some mechanical work without risking the car not starting. Now, with all of the electronics, special training is needed to even open the darn hood! The cars themselves do not make it easy to became a “car guy.”

Mel, there will be no expansion of The Strip at LVMS in the immediate future. Your comment regarding the lack of organization on the part of the racers is well known by NHRA, which they take advantage of regularly, i.e., whenever it suits them.

I don’t know about Mr. Hartman’s “attack” of KB and frankly doubt its accuracy. I do agree, however, that a vote taken after the race, and a secret ballot at that, which wouldn’t have “exposed” any driver who voted against his owner, would have produced different results.

Gino, I don’t think anyone has suggested that Bruton’s motivation was altruistic. Pretty much everything is about money at some point, but you can’t fault him for it.

Suppose this does work, and suppose the place is packed next year? That is not going to result in a rash of four-lane drag strips. Most facilities would need to be rebuilt from the ground up to accommodate two additional lanes. The ONLY place that could do it reasonably quickly would be The Strip at LVMS, and even then, if they did decide to do it, they would also have to rip up the existing lanes because if they don’t match asphalt and concrete compounds/mixtures perfectly – and that seems unlikely – you’d have wildly different traction characteristics between the “new” and “old” tracks. If that happened you’d really hear some whining, and justifiably.

Jon Asher
Senior Editor
Competitionplus.com
 
Jon, I think one of the things that people who have not been in drag racing for a long long time don't know is that at one time NHRA did have some real racers among their upper management. As time when on they dumped these people who knew what was needed to put on a good race, please the people and still make money. Carl Olson is an example. He knew what he was doing, had a great racing background, and tried to do what was best for everyone, including the racer who was putting on the program. I asked him one time why the ticket prices at Pomona kept going up in price like they do. His answer was real simple - as long as they could fill the stands NHRA could put the prices anywhere they wanted.
Over time all of the actual racers who were among the NHRA upper management were dumped except Graham Light who has been totally brainwashed and now really believes that what he is doing is right.
Too bad because the more the racers are harrassed the fewer that are going to race. We've seen a lot of people who raced for years finally throw:mad: their hands up in the air and say "ENOUGH" its not worth all the trouble and park their cars.
 
I may be mistaken, but I think Graham Light used to drive Top Fuel cars back in the sixties or seventies?

Not that that's a good thing. His thinking has been perverted to adhere to the requirements of the hierarchy he serves. It's NHRA's ballpark and ball, and you play their way or go home. You are merely a pawn to facilitate their efforts to extract money out of anything that ventures into their park, be it fan, racer, owner, journalist, vendor or sponsor.

They are arrogant with strained business ethics, but what corporation today isn't also like that?

In their metrics, their formula works. They fill the fields, they get spectators, they get TV, they get enough income to keep their exec's happy. Their actions seem like they want just enough racers and sponsors and fans to keep the thing going, and they do not want to deal with the possibility that if they were to be customer driven, they would have more racers, sponsors, and spectators than they could handle. They throttle their growth and success by being arrogant, in other words.

In other words, they think if they can be this arrogant and oblivious to their customers and still make all this money, why work harder to better serve their customers? It's only if they get so overbearing and arrogant that they start to kill their golden goose, that they will temporarily become more customer driven until they get the metrics back up, then they can start being douche nozzles again.

Extraction. It's a word I learned from watching Dylan Ratigan on MSNBC when he covers Wall Street and the bank bailouts. To me it means making big money by being powerful and unethical, instead of making big money by producing something useful that people want. That's so quaint, isn't it?

The big show is what it is and I still enjoy it. However, what I really enjoy is, for lack of a better term, nostalgia nitro. The nostalgia community should consider foremost that if you grow your portion of the sport, once it's fat enough, NHRA will insert themselves for the extractions that they feel entitled to. It's what they're best at.

I do acknowledge all the good stuff NHRA has done in it's history - sanctioning, rules, standards, safety. They do a lot of good hard stuff when it comes to all the gazillions of classes in NHRA racing.

-90% Jimmy
 
Registered member said:
Mel, there will be no expansion of The Strip at LVMS in the immediate future. Your comment regarding the lack of organization on the part of the racers is well known by NHRA, which they take advantage of regularly, i.e., whenever it suits them.

I don’t know about Mr. Hartman’s “attack” of KB and frankly doubt its accuracy. I do agree, however, that a vote taken after the race, and a secret ballot at that, which wouldn’t have “exposed” any driver who voted against his owner, would have produced different results.

Jon Asher
Senior Editor
Competitionplus.com
Click to expand...

Ouch Jon, that really hurts! :) But you be the judge:

Originally Posted by Virgil Hartman

I think if they took a vote later in the weekend it would have been different, but the leader of PRO was the most upset about the format Friday evening because his team was doing really bad to say the least. And it was the easiest thing to blame it on the format rather than the driver and team itself. He went as far as having NHRA move cars out of his "quad" twice during qualifying on Saturday because they weren't up to his "standards". If that team had performed well during the weekend, you would not have heard a word from PRO.
 
Terry Almy makes an excellent point about those with racing experience having been purged from the NHRA hierarchy. In the case of Carl Olson I would respectfully suggest that had he still been an NHRA employee not one single car would have gone down Englishtown’s track with the TV camera extended across the sand trap. Olson visually inspected – slowly and meticulously – every single foot of every drag strip that NHRA ran on before competition began. More than once the start of time trials was held up while something he’d spotted was repaired, removed or replaced. Forgetting for a moment everything else he did for NHRA, that alone made his employment worthwhile for everyone.

Regarding ticket prices, I did have a senior vp at NHRA tell me virtually the same thing in almost the same words – “We’ll keep raising ticket prices until we run into resistance.” The economy has generated that resistance. No one in motorsports can ignore the declining turnout of paying customers any longer. Just tune in a Cup race and look at the grandstands as the cars flash by. There are far more empty seats visible this year than ever before, and it’s also impacting drag racing.

Trust me when I say Graham Light is under enormous pressure in his job, and part of that pressure could be said to be of his own doing. Because he’s the lone individual in management who knows anything about running a drag race, it’s all on him.

Conversely, however, is the fact that if Graham says something should be thus-and-so, there’s no one else in senior management who has the experience or understanding to question what he says.

Much of what Jim Becktel says is true, I believe, although some of it goes a little far. I do think there are some in NHRA who are always concerned about customer relations and making the sport grow, but their efforts are sometimes hindered by those who only care about making money for the organization.

Jon Asher
Senior Editor
Competitionplus.com
 
I was a sponsor/facilitator/consultant/researcher during the event in Charlotte. I was not a team owner. Do I expect a ROI? You Betcha! Just as NHRA, Bruton Smith or any prudent business man/woman does.

My posts on this board were made after deducing information I saw, heard, or read (after checking a second source) personally during and after the event. All of them are my opinions, nothing more, nothing less.

Any name you apply to my "attack" is your assumption. But if I was a "well connected journalist", it would be easy for me to check facts to prove/disprove stories, not just shrug them off as "untruthful". Check the starting line crew Friday evening, or people in the tower a little later, or the staging lanes Saturday. Maybe Bruton and Marcus Smith read my posts to come to their conclusions. :D

I respect everyone's right to express their opinion. If I feel there is erroneous information or fiction contained, I will check it out and respond accordingly. Sometimes the media/posters will report and perpetuate "pr spin" rather than do some leg work and find out the facts.

Please inform us all of any successful group/organization where the participants control the league/business. If you say stick and ball sports, you have forgotten the commissioners office, and that the player's unions are against the owners. It has been my experience that when participants control a competitive entity, it fails, usually sooner rather than later.
 
Mel Smith, if you are quoting Mr. Hartman’s post, or this came from you alone doesn’t matter, and rest assured I am attacking neither Mr. Hartman or yourself.

With that said, however, if this refers to Mr. Bernstein I find it hard to believe for this reason, and this one only: Despite the “power” many people seem to think Bernstein has, there is no way NHRA would let him pick and choose the other cars in his quad any more than they’d let him choose who Brandon would face in standard side-by-side qualifying. Were something like that to happen, and others found out about it – and they darn sure would – the storm of protest would be huge. I also believe the final sentence in that post: “If that team had performed well during the weekend you would not have heard a word from PRO” is not only ludicrous, it’s pure conjecture without even a hint of fact behind it. Bernstein may still drive the PRO’s actions in some respects, but to suggest that he put together the letter and ballot simply because he was angry about his own car’s performance gives him far more power than he’s ever had.

There are some strong personalities on the PRO board. Guys like Connie Kalitta, Warren Johnson, Bill Miller and Ron Capps would not allow that to happen

Regarding Mr. Hartman’s response I can only go his own statement regarding his posts: “All of them are my opinions, nothing more, nothing less.”

I have checked with the people working the Four-wide race and none would confirm the suggestion that Bernstein manipulated the quads or pairings in any way.

The NHRA has been assigning pairings and run order for some time, and they do not deviate from their pre-issued listings. If someone doesn’t show the car he or she was supposed to face gets a single. They do not move the line up to fill that void.

If we are to accept Mr. Hartman’s suggestion we would have to accept a scenario in which, AFTER the quad lists had been issued, that someone from NHRA then went around and shuffled things. That did not happen.

Jon Asher
Senior Editor
Competitionplus.com
 
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