Team Orders/Diving. What is your take? (1 Viewer)

[ZWeinstein]

So with everything that happened this past week it obviously has re-ignited the topic of team orders and even though its been discussed in other threads I feel like there could be a deeper discussion about it than what could/is happening in the several different threads so I am generally curious as to what others think and if you "support" it how would you prefer seeing it done.

My personal opinion is that it honestly does not bother me as much as it did in years past and one reason is I believe every single team that has run a two or more car team in history has employed team orders at some point but the main reason and I forgot where I read it but someone brought the fact about why a team owner would do it and it boils down to the prestige and most importantly the money that goes with winning the championship. Not only season end money but the exposure for your sponsor in winning a world championship and the added revenue from the increased exposure/souvinier sales could mean a seven figure boost for a team. Can you blame a team for wanting that, from a business perspective I can not. To a casual fan in the stands or on TV in six months when they attend the next race or watch on TV and see the #1 on the car the casual fan wont think about the dive, he or she will just remember them being the defending champion.

Now if you are flat out against team orders than this next part will pretty much be irrelevant.

How would you prefer a team dive against one another? I will try and use historical events to explain the different methods. Mind you in a perfect world I would rather see two teams race flat out and the team who needs the win to win by .001 seconds but unfortunately its not a perfect world.

Would you want to see a team do what Troy did this past weekend in Vegas or like Larry Minor tried to do against Gary Beck in the 80s and cut a good light and make a race of it for 1000' and then shut off? Personally this is the method I would rather see as this would give the casual fan in the stands or watching on TV the resemblance of a heads up race.

Would you rather see like what happened with Jeff Arend and the blue CSK team did years ago in Maple Grove or what Mike Edwards did at the finals in (95?) against his engine builder Steve Schmidt and basically sit on the tree while his teammate runs and then take off after a second or so?

(Mainly for pro stock) Would you rather see what KJ did against his dad several times and run the #2 engine and be at a heavy performance disadvantage and essentially little to no shot at beating a teammate?

(Mainly fuel teams) Would you rather see like what happened with Force at Indy or Tommy Johnson at the Finals in '14 and watch the teammate cut a poor reaction time and then either purposefully drive the car out of the groove or the tuner purposefully smoke the tires?

Would you rather see a team claim a broken car/engine like Lucille Lee in the 80's?

Would you rather a team just flat out leave the car in the trailer like Angelle did in Topeka against John Meyers or Scott Kalitta against Doug in 99 at Brainerd?

I am generally curious to if you agree/accept team orders how you would prefer them to play out. Most of this is just a guy rambling while puffing on a cigar but I thought about it a little bit on the drive home from Vegas to Phoenix.

 

[4onthefl4]

Team orders + NHRA = WWE Smackdown

 

[PJ]

The competitor in me hates team orders, the business side gets it. If I was fighting for the championship I'd be pissed if a teammate laid down for me but I would offer to do so for a teammate.

I know maddening right

 

[Notch1320]

If you want to see team orders check out the Formula 1 race this Sunday from Mexico, the Red Bull team has already told Sergio Perez that he's not to challenge Max Verstappen in any way. Sucks for Perez as he's racing in front of his home town crowd as the only Mexican in the field.

 

[Cliff]

I would bet my cat that team orders have been around since Day One. Larry Minor shutting off in the final so Beck will win. Wait, Beck breaks and Minor coasts across the line and wins. etc etc etc Also thinking, you have a 2 car team. the #2 drivers takes a dive so you win the round and this leads to you winning the championship. But what is really important is that you win the championship for the sponsor. Sponsor likes you winning so much that you get another 3 year deal, for both cars. How many times has that played out?

Altho, I do remember in the 1990's, Dougzilla (Doug Herbert) had a 2 car team running IHRA. His other driver (names escapes me) had the IHRA championship withing his grasp, but had to race Doug. So Doug tells him basically you better be able to beat me if you want to win the championship. Doug won the race & the championship went out the window. I thought at the time that the championship was important for the sponsor and that Doug made a bad call.

Well, just my 2 cents.....

 

[AC]

For the first time in my life i agree w Tony P.

the qualifying game i love, set it up to go after your opponent first round! The dumping of the clutch is bs. Then to have one team member say we will do whatever and then have another say there are no team orders LOL. All i know is if im dumping for Erica i hope Elite is paying my bill.

 

[Nunz]

If you want to see team orders check out the Formula 1 race this Sunday from Mexico, the Red Bull team has already told Sergio Perez that he's not to challenge Max Verstappen in any way. Sucks for Perez as he's racing in front of his home town crowd as the only Mexican in the field.

Yep, you can actually listen to team orders given over the team radios during races, F1 does not try to hide it, and actually accepts it as part of team racing. As far as team orders in drag racing, how about way back in 1970 at the Gators, Candies & Hughes had 2 FCs in the final, and I'm pretty sure that the directive was the newer model Cuda was directed to win. I may be off on this but Bob you probably remember.

 

[*******]

We've beaten this horse for all it can take. It happens, everybody knows it. Nothing can be done about it.

 

[TSK]

If you win a championship because your teammate took a dive for you, why should any potential, or existing, sponsor take you seriously when you come asking for support?
Call me old school, but your integrity goes out the window if you win only because of a dive.

 

[mick]

like bob said. just watch F1, and/or look into F1 past. pick a team, pick a year, there are numerous instances. for some reason american racing is perceived to not have team orders,
i'm not sure why. maybe over the years the announcers of american racing have educated the listeners incorrectly?

 

[mikebcurve]

It’s not only team members diving. I’ve seen plenty of sportsman racers taking it easy on their friends. They just usually do a better job of hiding it.

 

[Al]

So with everything that happened this past week it obviously has re-ignited the topic of team orders and even though its been discussed in other threads I feel like there could be a deeper discussion about it than what could/is happening in the several different threads so I am generally curious as to what others think and if you "support" it how would you prefer seeing it done.

My personal opinion is that it honestly does not bother me as much as it did in years past and one reason is I believe every single team that has run a two or more car team in history has employed team orders at some point but the main reason and I forgot where I read it but someone brought the fact about why a team owner would do it and it boils down to the prestige and most importantly the money that goes with winning the championship. Not only season end money but the exposure for your sponsor in winning a world championship and the added revenue from the increased exposure/souvinier sales could mean a seven figure boost for a team. Can you blame a team for wanting that, from a business perspective I can not. To a casual fan in the stands or on TV in six months when they attend the next race or watch on TV and see the #1 on the car the casual fan wont think about the dive, he or she will just remember them being the defending champion.

Now if you are flat out against team orders than this next part will pretty much be irrelevant.

How would you prefer a team dive against one another? I will try and use historical events to explain the different methods. Mind you in a perfect world I would rather see two teams race flat out and the team who needs the win to win by .001 seconds but unfortunately its not a perfect world.

Would you want to see a team do what Troy did this past weekend in Vegas or like Larry Minor tried to do against Gary Beck in the 80s and cut a good light and make a race of it for 1000' and then shut off? Personally this is the method I would rather see as this would give the casual fan in the stands or watching on TV the resemblance of a heads up race.

Would you rather see like what happened with Jeff Arend and the blue CSK team did years ago in Maple Grove or what Mike Edwards did at the finals in (95?) against his engine builder Steve Schmidt and basically sit on the tree while his teammate runs and then take off after a second or so?

(Mainly for pro stock) Would you rather see what KJ did against his dad several times and run the #2 engine and be at a heavy performance disadvantage and essentially little to no shot at beating a teammate?

(Mainly fuel teams) Would you rather see like what happened with Force at Indy or Tommy Johnson at the Finals in '14 and watch the teammate cut a poor reaction time and then either purposefully drive the car out of the groove or the tuner purposefully smoke the tires?

Would you rather see a team claim a broken car/engine like Lucille Lee in the 80's?

Would you rather a team just flat out leave the car in the trailer like Angelle did in Topeka against John Meyers or Scott Kalitta against Doug in 99 at Brainerd?

I am generally curious to if you agree/accept team orders how you would prefer them to play out. Most of this is just a guy rambling while puffing on a cigar but I thought about it a little bit on the drive home from Vegas to Phoenix.

Zed, I just wanted to commend you on all of the research you obviously did before you made this post. I don't recall many people putting in this amount of effort before making a post. Thank-you !!
I have voiced my opinion in the other threads, so I'll just leave it at that.

BTW: Nunzio, you are right about the 1970 Gatornationals FC Final. Larry Reyes lost on a ridiculous hole shot to the newer C & H car with Hughes driving.

 

[twostep]

Someone in another thread mentioned to me that the PS Championship, while worth about $200,000, is only a fraction of what Troy Coughlin pays Elite to rent the car he's driving. Assuming that's the case, had I been Coughlin I would have ignored the orders and laid Enders out in Round 3. He had the lead at the 660 and was pulling away.

He would have gained much respect; hell, KB Racing would likely have provided him a car for free for the finals.

 

[ol21stud]

Someone in another thread mentioned to me that the PS Championship, while worth about $200,000, is only a fraction of what Troy Coughlin pays Elite to rent the car he's driving. Assuming that's the case, had I been Coughlin I would have ignored the orders and laid Enders out in Round 3. He had the lead at the 660 and was pulling away.

He would have gained much respect; hell, KB Racing would likely have provided him a car for free for the finals.

Can't quite see KB Racing, with it's decades long Summit connections, ever offering a Coughlin (Jegs family) much of anything.
Could you imagine Thanksgiving dinner at the Coughlin's if Troy Jr. took the deal!
You think when Larry Dixon was with the Miller Beer team, they would have ever offered a second car to Brandon Bernstein?
Maybe a ride in Dixon's current passenger seat... Let's go Brandon!

 

[Jeff]

Could you imagine Thanksgiving dinner at the Coughlin's if Troy Jr. took the deal!

That would be interesting anyway, at least when the subject of diving came up...

 

[GumbyWVU]

So with everything that happened this past week it obviously has re-ignited the topic of team orders and even though its been discussed in other threads I feel like there could be a deeper discussion about it than what could/is happening in the several different threads so I am generally curious as to what others think and if you "support" it how would you prefer seeing it done.

My personal opinion is that it honestly does not bother me as much as it did in years past and one reason is I believe every single team that has run a two or more car team in history has employed team orders at some point but the main reason and I forgot where I read it but someone brought the fact about why a team owner would do it and it boils down to the prestige and most importantly the money that goes with winning the championship. Not only season end money but the exposure for your sponsor in winning a world championship and the added revenue from the increased exposure/souvinier sales could mean a seven figure boost for a team. Can you blame a team for wanting that, from a business perspective I can not. To a casual fan in the stands or on TV in six months when they attend the next race or watch on TV and see the #1 on the car the casual fan wont think about the dive, he or she will just remember them being the defending champion.

Now if you are flat out against team orders than this next part will pretty much be irrelevant.

How would you prefer a team dive against one another? I will try and use historical events to explain the different methods. Mind you in a perfect world I would rather see two teams race flat out and the team who needs the win to win by .001 seconds but unfortunately its not a perfect world.

Would you want to see a team do what Troy did this past weekend in Vegas or like Larry Minor tried to do against Gary Beck in the 80s and cut a good light and make a race of it for 1000' and then shut off? Personally this is the method I would rather see as this would give the casual fan in the stands or watching on TV the resemblance of a heads up race.

Would you rather see like what happened with Jeff Arend and the blue CSK team did years ago in Maple Grove or what Mike Edwards did at the finals in (95?) against his engine builder Steve Schmidt and basically sit on the tree while his teammate runs and then take off after a second or so?

(Mainly for pro stock) Would you rather see what KJ did against his dad several times and run the #2 engine and be at a heavy performance disadvantage and essentially little to no shot at beating a teammate?

(Mainly fuel teams) Would you rather see like what happened with Force at Indy or Tommy Johnson at the Finals in '14 and watch the teammate cut a poor reaction time and then either purposefully drive the car out of the groove or the tuner purposefully smoke the tires?

Would you rather see a team claim a broken car/engine like Lucille Lee in the 80's?

Would you rather a team just flat out leave the car in the trailer like Angelle did in Topeka against John Meyers or Scott Kalitta against Doug in 99 at Brainerd?

I am generally curious to if you agree/accept team orders how you would prefer them to play out. Most of this is just a guy rambling while puffing on a cigar but I thought about it a little bit on the drive home from Vegas to Phoenix.

Regarding Pro Stock, I don't think KJ running the #2 engine - if that really was the case for his whole career - is the same thing as taking a dive, etc. WJ against KJ in final rounds was 10-3; against Jim Yates was 11-5. 7-2 against Geoffrion. Similar results and no #2 engine there. KJ was 3-14 against Greg in final rounds. Considering KJ had like 60 wins in less than 20 seasons, that so-called #2 engine would have been most teams #1 engine.

KJ was NEVER at a "heavy performance disadvantage" with "essentially no shot at beating a teammate". This is a very poor example for this discussion. Between Hagan and Capps this year, who's been running the #2 engine? Would it have even mattered?

And as I stated before I find it difficult to believe a primary sponsor would sit still if rounds were being intentionally thrown. Hmm.....well NHRA does seem to have a problem getting sponsors.......oh well.

 

[stoppro]

I don't care. It's always the same winners anyway.I'm just about done with it.They moving all the teams around but it still same people, i'm sorry but it is becoming boring.

 

[camaro]

Had Troy takin' out erica and sacked her chances of a championship, it's possible things around that camp, would be a bit awkward, from here on out and while troy (JEGS) provides the cash, Elite provides the car/horsepower, which he needs, to be competitive. Lets face it, Jegs only other competitive alternative, to elite, is KB and well, i don't need to state, why that cant happen, so in a way he didn't have much of a choice! A few races ago, i thought i heard the announcer say, that after Aaron Stanfield defeated enders, he walked over to her car and apologized ! so . . . . . .

 

[mick]

if each pro class had 8 touring teams with 2 cars per team at EVERY race, you could race for a team win and individual points, and each team would have the opportunity
to have 1 potential blocker per race per pro class........2 or 3 Q runs just like now, and eliminate on sundays. 16 cars per class show up at every race and set the field for sunday.

 

[none]

A few races ago, i thought i heard the announcer say, that after Aaron Stanfield defeated enders, he walked over to her car and apologized ! so . . . . . .

Not the same thing. "Sorry, I meant to lose that race" is different from "Sorry, I know you needed that race."

Many times a competitor will be wanting to win, but still feel bad about ruining your day.

In 2019, Greg Anderson won Denver and Sonoma, then went to the Seattle final where he lost to Matt Hartford. And Hartford apologized. It was "Sorry man, I know you wanted the sweep, but I wanted the win."

Angelle apologized when she beat Joey Gladstone in Charlotte. Not because she didn't want to win, but because of all he had been through that day. She wasn't trying to lose, but she still knew how much Joey wanted it. And part of her felt bad for taking it away.

Alan