NHRA and A/Fuel Funny Car (1 Viewer)

[Randy]

Since NHRA hasn't maintained parity in Dragsters, how could you expect them to do so in FC?

There is parity in FC right now?

 

[RAPID]

Hi Marshall,

Welcome to the board.

Rapid

 

[Ugly one]

Marshall,
Nice to see you lurkin'. Tell Mark M. to give me a call sometime. I had heard that he's hanging around your place.
Wasn't there a ban on A/FC because someone had a horrific fire several years ago?

 

[d'kid]

Okay, old guy throwing in his two cents here

Once upon a time
xx/ meant Blown
x/ meant unblown

Then we had class FD (fuel dragster), GD (gas dragster), FC(funny car), A(altered) , ect

You had Gasoline classes and Fuel classes... and I hate to say it, but alky ain't gas, but it's not Nitro either...

So, by the mid 70's we had AA/FD(nitro) BB/FD(blown alky) AA/FC(nitro) BB/FC(blown alky) A/FD(nitro) A/FC(nitro) and killed off the Pro Gas classes

Oh, as I was saying, ProComp Proved 30 years ago you can't have four distinct classes running heads up, not without jackin' weights and %'s around...

What we need today is the 2 Junior-pro classes to run at every national event as the show on Sunday along with the two blown Nitro classes. A/FD, and A/FC...

The Saturday Show will be Qualifying and the two PRO Gas classes P/S and PSM... along with TA/FC and TA/D

Or a real out in left field alternative, let HD run nothing but Nitro on one coast and the Gas/Alky classes on the opposite coast the same weekends... with the top ten cars in points in each of the eight classes joining up starting at Indy for the Playoffs (8 car fields that the ten have to qualify for)... and chances are pretty good that All Eight Titles won't be wrapped up before the final race of the 7 race playoffs... but even if it is, how many 4 game sweeps of the World Series have there been in the last 50 years?

Okay, this was more like a $2.00 post...

d'kid

 

[.]

Thanx Randy and Randy.

It would be pretty wild to see some hilborn stacks sticking out of the hoods.
Unless they do the barndoor thing.

 

[johnny]

You could name it King Boogaloo

It wouldn't be the first. Clarence Bailey had a King Boogaloo Cougar F/C in the 1970's. The thing would barely (rarely?) start.

 

[hellfirejim]

Ok a little history. I lived on the east coast back in the day and we had circuits that were just injected funny cars. They put on a great show, rarely broke and had headder flames. Oh yes that sweet sound and smell of nitro.

To tell the truth I don't remember why they died out, I am sure somebody will pipe up.

The reasoning for not running them is no reason at all. It is very hard to drive a an alky funny and we ran one for about 7 years but if you were going to have a class that would give drivers good learning experience before they stepped up to the big time I can't think of anything better than a A/FC.

jim

 

[JAG]

Greg, Yup.....it does not apply to TF, FC or PS either....

KB

Right Kevin...I say in those classes, Run what ya brung and hope you brung enough. lol

 

["Dr. Dirt"]

Thanx Randy and Randy.

It would be pretty wild to see some hilborn stacks sticking out of the hoods.
Unless they do the barndoor thing.

I totally agree!

 

[Nunz]

RG, I think you should put a group together and lobby the NHRA to include A/FCs. Everyone asks how will parity be achieved. Well, there are years of data from the TAD class to help get the cars close from the start. The A Fuelers started off years ago, back in Pro Comp, with a crazy light weight break, like 2.5 lbs./cube or close. As they got faster over the years, that obviously changed. The FCs were the same, remember Veney's little Vega before he went to blown alky? Those cars were really wild. I, too, remember a circuit on the east coast when I was a kid that was Inj. Nitro Fcs. Gene Altizer and a bunch of others. Anyway, with all the experience gained from the dragsters, I would bet the rules could be written so that right off the bat the cars are close. I would love to see it, and I bet a bunch of folks who are being drawn to build Nostalgia FCs would consider joining in if Injected fuel cars were allowed.

 

[Toejam]

RG, I think you should put a group together and lobby the NHRA to include A/FCs. Everyone asks how will parity be achieved. Well, there are years of data from the TAD class to help get the cars close from the start. The A Fuelers started off years ago, back in Pro Comp, with a crazy light weight break, like 2.5 lbs./cube or close. As they got faster over the years, that obviously changed. The FCs were the same, remember Veney's little Vega before he went to blown alky? Those cars were really wild. I, too, remember a circuit on the east coast when I was a kid that was Inj. Nitro Fcs. Gene Altizer and a bunch of others. Anyway, with all the experience gained from the dragsters, I would bet the rules could be written so that right off the bat the cars are close. I would love to see it, and I bet a bunch of folks who are being drawn to build Nostalgia FCs would consider joining in if Injected fuel cars were allowed.

After all the hassle NHRA has gone through in the Dragster class I think we'll see Pro mods as a Pro class in NHRA before A-Fuel FC's. But if NHRA decided to make them legal and someone came out in an A-Fuel FC and laid down a 5.40 with a 421 motor you'd see a Clearing house sale on Alky FC's in National Dragster within a week! You'd probably see a sea of Ex-Alky FC guys build Pro mods.

 

[Thrill]

i've posted this on my site, but i'll chime in over here.

car counts are higher in tafc than they've been in a long time. i don't remember a short field at any nationals this year, and that's a first in a while. parity is not even a good word to use to describe tafc because everybody runs the same combo, blown alcohol. sure there's different head and motor configurations, but they all run pretty close. most racers choose the head/motor they feel is the most competitive. the cost to switch isn't even in the same ballpark as it would be to switch to an injected nitro combo. if you had a tafc and wanted to switch to injected nitro fc, you could use the fuel and oil tanks, one of your mags, some valve cover gaskets and plug wires...oh yeah, i'm sure you could use the same steering wheel and throttle pedal.

this notion that a/f is waaay cheaper to run than a blown combo would be a great subject for mythbusters. i've crew chiefed on all three combinations. while i've never signed the checks, i ordered the parts for all and saw the invoices.

first off, using the word cheaper is a misnomer at this level. secondly, a race budget in the top alcohol classes, a/f included, has more to do with the tune-up and personel than the combination. there are no a/f or blown lanes at the flying j truck stops, and i've yet to see cheaper tickets/hotel rooms on orbitz when booking travel. this topic of a/f being cheaper is so far out in eutopia never never land; it's so far away from real world. you have to construct a perfect world where you don't hurt parts on either side of the equation to compare expenses. well that rarely happens on either side....but here we go.

let's start with the favorite...valve springs. some racers use ti springs, some use of the newer material steel springs. regardless of material, valve spring life has come a long way in the past few years. that part of the equation is getting better for the blown cars. rod life has went up over the past few years as well. it's not uncommon to see top teams get 20-30 runs out of rods. on steve harker's car we finished 5th and ran with the big dogs, and have a crank with 68 runs on it, no cracks.

rotating assembly and valvetrain is more expensive than the a/fueler. but there are some things that are more expensive than the blown car on an a/fueler, contrary to urban legend. start with the fuel. a drum of nitro is about 900 bucks, a drum of alcohol around 250 or less. you have twice the park plugs with an a/fueler and you usually can't re-use them. the price of ngk spark plugs just doubled. so you have twice the ignition expense. twice the wires to replace, twice the inventory to carry. with the plug price increase, we're really starting to eat into the savings.

let's go to the bellhousing. a/fuelers are direct drive with a 4 disc clutch vs blown with a 3 speed and 3 disc clutch. so before we even get to the topic of wear, you have 1 more disc and one more floater every lap. well leaving from an idle in high gear really eats up clutch parts vs the blown car using rpm. i mean really eats clutch parts. maybe not close to double the expense, but close.

lets get to tires. while there is a decent chunk of blown cars that run goodyears, the majority run hoosiers. well hoosiers are 750 mounted, goodyears are close to 1100 a set. tire chunking is a fact of life with the faster a/fuelers. one set of tires you may get 20 runs, one set you may get 3. putting an average on the runs would be subjective without having detailed data from several teams over the course of the year. but it is fact a/fuelers chunk tires. it's pretty rare for a blown car not to get a full life of 12-20 plus runs out of a set of their tires. so there's more tire expense due to the downforce.

have racers switched from b/ad to a/f and saved money. yes. the question you have to ask is was it because they were blowing up a lot of motors and quit blowing up motors after the switch or was it because of the combo. did they have a tuneup that blew up parts with a blown car and then bought a tuneup for an a/fueler that didn't blow up parts? the assumption that killing a bunch of motors to be competitive with a blown motor is absolutely false. tuneups hurt parts!

while we're talking tuneups, has anyone priced a competitive a/f 'tuneup?' or the tuners that usually go along with them? is the reason why the top a/f teams carry 6 or more cylinder heads in the trailer because they think it's neat to have all those pretty heads in the cabinet? the a/f car is harder on cylinder heads when you start dipping into the 5.20 and 5.teen zone. if it isn't pushing head gaskets out, they burn valves and fuzz or burn combustion chambers. i don't care if you got a buddy that fixes them for free, ups still costs the same blown or a/f.

are a/fuel crewmembers cheaper? do they eat less or drink less beer? no and no.

what we're analyzing is a portion of the overall budget to run one of these things. diesel costs the same for everyone. payroll, fuel, flights, hotels, motorhome payments, permits, insurance, etc., all cost the same and they are a significant chunk of the cost to race competitively in the top alcohol classes. racecar parts arent the reason why top fuel is so much more expensive than top alcohol, it's the labor, personel and the costs associated that take that into the stratosphere.

so here's the kicker. i've conceded in the past a/fuelers may be marginally cheaper to run in a perfect world. maybe $500 a weekend, but i doubt that much. so at 16 races, that's $8,000 a year. just for grins, let's be nice and give the a/fuelers $20,000 savings a year. well, it's going to cost at least $150,000 (more realistic would be $200 to $250k) to switch to a/fuel...buying a turn key car, spares, tuneup, etc. you sell your top running blown stuff for pennies on the dollar and might get between 70k to 100k for it. that's when you finally sell it after a year or more, unless you really give it away. i'm not going to put exact numbers on it because we can really twist the numbers how we want them to come out, but bottom line it's alot of money to spend to get a comparatively small savings.

the more logical assumption is that the switch was made to be more competitive, not to save a bunch of money.

now we just used alot of bandwidth debating perfect world scenarios that more than likely don't happen. you can run fast with a/fuel and not hurt parts just like you can run fast with blown and not hurt parts. tuneups hurt parts, and the people behind the tuneups cost money.

the perceived cost savings of a/fuel is very minute. it's definitely not worth screwing up the balance in tafc, a class that by the numbers is thriving.

as i've said on my site, being a good driver is more about being sound mentally than being sound procedurally. anyone that says an a/f car is better to prepare a driver for nitro fc either hasn't driven, or isn't telling the whole truth. they are a good stepping stone, don't get me wrong, but to say they are BETTER, is not true. a good driver can jump in any type of car and be competitive because they are on their game mentally and make the necessary adjustments. let's look at two of the top prospects in the alky ranks, sean bellemeur and spencer massey. is spencer more prepared for a fuel ride because he has more experience putting it on the high side and easing off the clutch? has sean left at 6000 plus and pushed buttons on his shifter so many times he'll never master leaving at idle and not shifting? no and no. they are both top prospects because they are sharp drivers mentally. i'd be willing to bet spencer could jump in an alky fc and do well once he got used to the steering aspects.

it's just not worth it. tafc is thriving right now, and this would throw a major monkeywrench in it. i'm sure some EXISTING teams would switch, but how many new teams are going to come in vs teams that will either quit altogether or significantly scale back how many races they attend. if these teams that will run a/f only are out there, why aren't they in competition now? talk's cheap. it's real cheap when it comes down to turning the tafc class on it's ear.

that's how i really feel in case anyone was wondering .

i forget who said it on here, the cost of racing hasn't went up in 50 years, it's still everything you got. that applies to this debate. if you're fortunate enough to have the money to choose between a/fuel and blown, it's like the queen calling you up and asking you whether you want to eat dinner at the castle or the palace. either way you're still having filet mignon and yes, i just switched to geico and saved a bunch on my car insurance.

 

[Nunz]

Will, that was a great post. Maybe the case for adding A/Fuel to the FC class isn't so much about a cheaper alternative, as it is about adding a type of car that would just be cool to see in the mix. I do understand that TAFC is healthy right now, so I see the point of those who say don't screw it up. It just seems to me that with all the years of experience that exists with the A/FDs and TADs, the rules could be created to have the cars very close right off the bat, while it took years in the dragster class because the Injected fuel combo was emerging over several years. Again, just my opinion, but I remember watching Inj. fuel FCs when I was young, and it would be neat to have them back.

 

[Toejam]

It blows me away at how many people think that driving an A-Fuel car is some how better training for TF/FC than a blown car! I guess Gary Scelzi, the Pedregon bros., Darryl Russell, Tony Schumacher, Tim Wilkerson, Phil Burkhart, Blaine Johnson, Cory Mac and Tommy Johnson Jr. didn't get the memo!

 

[Jim]

All things being equal (and they NEVER are), I'll take Nitro!

Would certainly add to the show/appeal.

 

[Randy]

Even if spark plugs went up to $10.00 each, you'd only need 8 more plugs per run with dual plugs. $80.00 per run. I don't think I would need to add an extra crew member to gap 8 more plugs per run.

Offset that with 60-80 runs on a set of rods instead of 15-25. Same with pistons. BTW, in TA/FC titanium springs are north of a $1,000 for "8" springs and will get you just over a dozen runs. In A/Fuel a set of 16 red stripes (springs) can be run most of the year and they are $600 for "16" of them. Ditto on lifters, blower belts, tranny sprags, tin work on the body when you drop an intake valve...which splits the body and blows the hatch in the air, broken windshields. Then there's blower maintenance, etc.

But...It's not about expense. It's about a new option that should be considered. A good lap in a TA/FC is 5.50's to 5.40's. Should be the same with injected nitro.

We cycle parts all the time. Switching combinations would just be part of the cycle. To make the switch you'd be removing more parts than you'd be adding, anyway. If you like blown alcohol (which I obviously do) then stay with it. But allow the rest the option to run A/FC if they chose.

RG

 

[Toejam]

RG wouldn't it be just as valid to lobby NHRA to allow the 125% back? That's worth over 1,000-1,200 RPM in itself I'm guessing. Otherwise why not sell the Flopper and buy an A-Fuel Dragster? If it's that much of a passion why not?

 

[Randy]

RG wouldn't it be just as valid to lobby NHRA to allow the 125% back? That's worth over 1,000-1,200 RPM in itself I'm guessing. Otherwise why not sell the Flopper and buy an A-Fuel Dragster? If it's that much of a passion why not?

I'm a died in the wool funny car guy except for one time. I was in partners in a Top Gas dragster that lasted 8 3/4 runs before it was destroyed in a wreck at Bakersfield in the late 1980's. My first "real" race car was an altered I ordered new built specifically with a BB/FC frame in 1976, and I had a Corvette funny car body on my dad's patio for it, but we never mounted it. After that, all funny cars all the time.

I'd love to go back to 125%. I think it would be more efficient and easier on parts. It'll never happen, unfortunately.

RG.

 

[Toejam]

I'd love to go back to 125%. I think it would be more efficient and easier on parts. It'll never happen, unfortunately.
RG.

I bet if enough of you racers got together on it NHRA would listen. But if most have the attitude that it will never happen, then it won't happen. Will Hanna's convinced that a majority of FC guys don't want the 125% back because it will change the tune-ups too much...

 

[Randy]

I bet if enough of you racers got together on it NHRA would listen. But if most have the attitude that it will never happen, then it won't happen. Will Hanna's convinced that a majority of FC guys don't want the 125% back because it will change the tune-ups too much...

Everyone got involved calling Len Imbrogno at NHRA back when the idiotic rule was proposed, but a couple of people who thought they knew more than everyone else got it through. After what we went through to save it in the first place I can tell you it will never happen (petitions, etc).

Changing the tune-up to 125% would require a change back to .950 pumps and a couple tranny ratio's, which many already have. At 125% you could short shift it and run 5.50's. Miner's ran over 260 miles per hour with a 2 speed at 125%.

If you bogarted a tune up from someone you might have a point, but to make the switch back to 125% would not mean reinventing the wheel. Anyone afraid of changing because they say they have a handle on their current tune up wasn't around during the 125% days.

Right now I have a fuel system and tune-up on Shane Sanford's TAD in the NSDA (National Sand Drag Association). He has a 541 BAE 5 and just purchased a 526 big bore motor. We've run the PSI blower as slow as 92% (current TA/FC spec) all the way up to 136% over because they have no restrictions except SFI limits. Calculating necessary fuel volume isn't that complicated. BTW, Shane and his guys have won the points championship 3 out of the last 4 years.

RG