Top Fuel and Funny Car: A modest proposal inspired by Alan R. (1 Viewer)

[Mike]

Let me preface this by saying I understand this is heresy for a lot of people. However, in light of:
1) Financial considerations, even with the new Camping World deal,
2) Technological improvements year to year,
3) Safety for participants, and
4) Car counts, here is an idea:

Alan Reinhart said in another thread "If you really want to go back to 1320 you're not talking blower overdrive restrictions. It would take removing the blowers completely. Megan Meyer went 5.09 and has gone 285+ 1/4 mile with 420 cubic inches and no clutch management. Give Randy Meyer 500 CI and management and he will be running 480s at 305 by the end of the week. To go back to 1/4 mile you don't need to take 500 horsepower away, you need to take 5ooo HP away. Do you really want to do that to essentially add one more second to the race?"

With that in mind, what if Top Fuel and Funny Car were reinvented with the folllowing parameters:
1) Move back to 1320
2) Remove the blowers, However, along with that
3) Allow the 500 inch engines, same tires, and clutch management. Perhaps allow 100% nitro or higher % than TF/FC run now.

This would lower costs, allow more teams to participate, allow 1320 feet again, and (I suspect) by the end of year 1 in good conditions, somebody could be running 4.70something.
What about TAD/TAFC? Glad you asked.
Options would be:
*Keep the same rules, though there would be a less obvious difference to the casual observer.
*Set a very general target range NHRA would like TAD/TAFC to run at, then change rules for each combo. For example, if a good TAD car runs in the 5.20s and TAFC in 5.50s now, perhaps set a goal of 5.50 TAD/5.80 TAFC (yes, I know teens for TAD and .40s for TAFC are not unusual, I'm speaking broadly).
I do not suggest these are hard goals and certainly not suggesting a Factory Stock type situation. Rather, a general idea of slowing the TAD/TAFC down about 3 tenths. In the long run, this should decrease costs. Perhaps a few Top Dragster drivers would find it enticing to jump up if it wasn't quite as expensive.

Would you trade the blower to get back to 1320, less expenses, and more cars? Would Joe Sixpacks who goes once a year enjoy it any less or notice it if Brittany Force ran 4.80 at 309mph or Ron Capps ran 5.07 at 305 mph in a non-blown TF/FC as long as they can use the other enhancements (mentioned above) that TAD/TAFC cannot?
Flame away.

 

[Just Paul]

 

[J5races]

Works for me.
But why not keep a blower and make it smaller, remove second Mag. Limit boost to like 30psi and change final drive again.

 

[twostep]

Taking the blowers away would just about kill Top Fuel and Fuel Funny Car in my opinion. You can take 5000hp away, slow the cars to 305-310 (quarter mile) and still retain all the noise and cackle that makes the professional nitro categories what they are - crowd pleasers. The idea of N/A 500-inch TF cars does nothing but make them quicker and faster Top Alcohol dragsters, and you know what happens when they come up - the crowds hit the stands and the restrooms. Personally I enjoy Top Alcohol but most can take it or leave it. And having 500-inch TF cars and 420-inch T/AD cars both is akin to MMPS and NHRA-legal PS. The fans don't really see or understand the difference other than one is about 3 tenths and 15mph faster than the other, and the MMPS cars have a slightly deeper tone.

Put the TF and FC engines back to where they were in the early 90s. 5000hp, 4.70/300-305 times and speeds, run them quarter mile or 1000 feet at tracks with marginal shutdown length. NASCAR constantly runs at different length tracks that require different engine and gearing setups; that can happen with NHRA. A loud, cackling fuel dragster that runs 300mph at a traditional-length track is still an exciting thing for a fan, even one that's used to 12 years of 1000 feet and 330mph. And even though they'll still break parts it'd not only be a lot cheaper but it'll give small teams a fighting chance to compete with the big teams.

And finally, NHRA needs to figure out a way to get the purse back up where it should be. As it is now, you can win more money at regional no-prep races with an operation that costs less than a tenth what it does to campaign a fuel car.

 

[ironpony]

thinking out loud here along these same lines, the cars now black track the whole 1000 feet meaning they are over powering the track and spinning the tires.
Now if you take away power and achieve 100% traction they could theoretically go faster.
with the current rear gear IF the cars cold get 100% traction the MPH would be much higher than they are running
Power and downforce which creates traction is a double edged sword
too much power spin tires
too little power wad them up and shake
too little downforce spin the tires down track
too much downforce no spinning but creates too much drag and slows the car

 

[cknight]

OK, I'll take the risk of making a fool of myself on this one:

Blowers: 8:71, standard helix rotors and rotor profiles. No overdrive limits, as the air just gets hotter with more OD.
450 cu.in. Less stroke, more journal overlap for better crank life.
Rear gear ratio as is.
Magnetos as is.
Spec sealed fuel pump (75 gallon?). No overdrive. NHRA supplied, you get it in tech along with a flow chart. Returned to NHRA after the event.
Clutch management as is.
Ignition timing and fuel management limited to three total stages.
1000' is fine.
Possibly increased nitro percentage.
Possibly narrower rear slicks.
Give the racers at least one year to prepare.

Fire away.............

 

[Jack]

Remove the blowers and you remove the soul of these cars. I can happily live with thousand foot fuel racing.

 

[mgty3whlr]

 

[none]

OK, I'll take the risk of making a fool of myself on this one:

Blowers: 8:71, standard helix rotors and rotor profiles. No overdrive limits, as the air just gets hotter with more OD.
450 cu.in. Less stroke, more journal overlap for better crank life.
Rear gear ratio as is.
Magnetos as is.
Spec sealed fuel pump (75 gallon?). No overdrive. NHRA supplied, you get it in tech along with a flow chart. Returned to NHRA after the event.
Clutch management as is.
Ignition timing and fuel management limited to three total stages.
1000' is fine.
Possibly increased nitro percentage.
Possibly narrower rear slicks.
Give the racers at least one year to prepare.

Fire away.............

Chase,
Not firing away, just being conversational.

You want to obsolete the blocks, cranks, rods, pistons, blocks, pumps and blowers and potentially tires and wheels?

Then you want all the teams to buy this new stuff and spend a year testing?

Even Connie would say that's too expensive.

I personally would rather have 11,ooo HP at 1,000 feet than 6-7,000 at 1320.

Alan

 

[camaro]

so lets keep everything the same as is, and continue with low car counts, very few sponsors, low ratings, etc . . . . . for crying out loud, something needs to change in order to spark both racer and fan interest

 

[mgty3whlr]

Low ratings? Well put up some ads on the local networks. New people won't watch unless they know.

 

[stitcherbob]

You have horsepower and clutch management that is causing cars to outrun their own wheelbases.... Leah is the most recent one to find out chrome moly can be reduced to toothpicks.

Lets keep the blocks, reduce the bore and stroke, delete one mag, reduce the blower cubic inches, reduce the stages of clutch lockup and make the drivers dance on the fine line of traction or pedalfest.
If they smoke too much the crewchiefs will have to figure out how to get them down the track...like they did years ago. Get rid of laid back headers, put larger spoilers on funny cars (and prostocks), more weight added in the form of safety innovations, and finally......if somebody can make a new engine combo work, let them in. If a Japanese straight six can make over 1000hp now, let them try nitro and billet blocks and see if they can keep up with the Hemis. Don't stifle innovation

 

[teague14]

Yeah no thanks. I’ll take the 11k Hp at 1000 foot any day of the week. Taking a giant leap backwards just doesn’t interest me.

 

[twostep]

Yeah no thanks. I’ll take the 11k Hp at 1000 foot any day of the week. Taking a giant leap backwards just doesn’t interest me.

I prefer it too. But the topic is how to reduce costs, put more butts in the stands (once the restrictions lift), increase the car counts, increase sponsor interest, give smaller teams a sporting chance and return the purses to something reasonable. NHRA cut it 70% this year; hell, if you win every race the purse isn't enough to even pay for your nitro.

If NHRA starts off 2021 with what they've been doing, which one of the above is going to change? None of them. Same old, same old, as the NHRA drifts closer and closer towards Chapter 11. Brilliant idea: The brass hats and the tech people at NHRA need to sit down with the fuel racers - ALL the fuel racers. For as long as it takes and as many meetings as it takes. Include track owners and some of the big sponsors. Talk it out until there's a consensus and stop fooling around. This crap over 1320 vs 1000, leaving the cars alone vs slowing them down, has gone on for ten years. Time to come up with a doable plan; the future of the NHRA truly hangs in the balance.

And once a plan comes together regarding fuel cars, don't leave out the Sportsman folks. They're hurting, too. For years I've said give 'em their own show, as in their own day at national events. I'm beginning to like the current format where Sportsman gets Friday to themselves and the fuel teams save a ton of money by going with a 2-round qualifying format on Saturday. The downside is less exposure for the sponsors, although sometimes I wonder just how much difference it would make. If Friday fans miss seeing a fuel car with SANDVIK CORMANT or LEVI, RAY and SHOUP on the side, is it really going to hurt that company? Not 1 person in 100 even knows who those companies are - or cares.

 

[ZWeinstein]

Personally I have not missed a race/qualifying day at Phoenix in 12 years. I have driven over 12 hours to go to a race. For several years I would skip the NASCAR race less than 30 minutes from home to drive 5+ hours for the World FInals in Pomona that often happens the same weekend. In fact I am getting off of work on Friday and making the drive to Vegas for two days and turning around and driving back Sunday night for work on Monday morning. The reason I do all of that is because I love the sport and there is nothing out there that will compare watching two 11,000+ hp fuel cars blast off side by side. The sensory overload from fuel cars are why I show up to races.

Yes I love other classes like stock/super stock, top sportsman, alcohol, etc and look forward to them when I go but in all honesty the fuel cars are why I show up. Fuel cars are why I would work extra shifts and save every extra buck I made so I could drive and sleep in my crappy car for four days when I was 17, 18, 19 just so I could get my nitro fix. If you neuter a fuel car to me you lessen that sensory overload that it unleashes, and for what? an extra 320' of racing. We have all said that probably 85% of people in the stands come for just fuel cars well if you neuter them to the point of not being awe-inspiring anymore well then you will really see empty stands.


So say you do slow the cars down to run 300 mph in 1/4 mile. What happens when you have a chute failure like Densham did at Pomona a couple years ago or Capps had at Indy. That extra 320' feet of stopping distance may have prevented a bad situation from being a catastrophic/tragic incident for both. Alan also mentioned the cost of essentially re-working every piece and part of a fuel engine/management systems just to slow down and go 320' farther. That alone would probably bankrupt a majority of teams. Yes in a perfect world where every track had two miles of shutdown and tires could handle the forces of 350+ mph speeds I would love to see 1/4 mile racing, but to neuter the cars just to fit 1/4 mile racing I believe would cause more irreversible damage to the sport we all love.

 

[John Capps Sr.]

Let me preface this by saying I understand this is heresy for a lot of people. However, in light of:
1) Financial considerations, even with the new Camping World deal,
2) Technological improvements year to year,
3) Safety for participants, and
4) Car counts, here is an idea:

Alan Reinhart said in another thread "If you really want to go back to 1320 you're not talking blower overdrive restrictions. It would take removing the blowers completely. Megan Meyer went 5.09 and has gone 285+ 1/4 mile with 420 cubic inches and no clutch management. Give Randy Meyer 500 CI and management and he will be running 480s at 305 by the end of the week. To go back to 1/4 mile you don't need to take 500 horsepower away, you need to take 5ooo HP away. Do you really want to do that to essentially add one more second to the race?"

With that in mind, what if Top Fuel and Funny Car were reinvented with the folllowing parameters:
1) Move back to 1320
2) Remove the blowers, However, along with that
3) Allow the 500 inch engines, same tires, and clutch management. Perhaps allow 100% nitro or higher % than TF/FC run now.

This would lower costs, allow more teams to participate, allow 1320 feet again, and (I suspect) by the end of year 1 in good conditions, somebody could be running 4.70something.
What about TAD/TAFC? Glad you asked.
Options would be:
*Keep the same rules, though there would be a less obvious difference to the casual observer.
*Set a very general target range NHRA would like TAD/TAFC to run at, then change rules for each combo. For example, if a good TAD car runs in the 5.20s and TAFC in 5.50s now, perhaps set a goal of 5.50 TAD/5.80 TAFC (yes, I know teens for TAD and .40s for TAFC are not unusual, I'm speaking broadly).
I do not suggest these are hard goals and certainly not suggesting a Factory Stock type situation. Rather, a general idea of slowing the TAD/TAFC down about 3 tenths. In the long run, this should decrease costs. Perhaps a few Top Dragster drivers would find it enticing to jump up if it wasn't quite as expensive.

Would you trade the blower to get back to 1320, less expenses, and more cars? Would Joe Sixpacks who goes once a year enjoy it any less or notice it if Brittany Force ran 4.80 at 309mph or Ron Capps ran 5.07 at 305 mph in a non-blown TF/FC as long as they can use the other enhancements (mentioned above) that TAD/TAFC cannot?
Flame away.

 

[John Capps Sr.]

Chase,
Not firing away, just being conversational.

You want to obsolete the blocks, cranks, rods, pistons, blocks, pumps and blowers and potentially tires and wheels?

Then you want all the teams to buy this new stuff and spend a year testing?

Even Connie would say that's too expensive.

I personally would rather have 11,ooo HP at 1,000 feet than 6-7,000 at 1320.

Alan

Or take 20% of the downforce away front and back. Cheap and quick..., eazy-peazy...!!!!

 

[ironpony]

FACT: NHRA is the "circus" coming to town. Some people get excited and flock to see the freak cars go FAST and LOUD for the day. Then they do not even think about a racecar for another year.

Just look around unfortunately drag racing is dying, kids do not have the interest in cars that we did.
80% plus of the "fans" that attend the one national event near them does not watch it on TV or attend another event that year. Car counts to them mean nothing, most do not even understand the racing. They are there for the noise and show.

Even the "fans" leave during PS and PSB what does that tell you?. They are there for a loud, fast show not racing.
Do I think NHRA is going to fold and go away? yes someday. Tracks are being sold and turned into housing because there are not many people racing anymore.

The wife and I have attended as many as 13 events in one year, I live next to National Trails and listen to cars racing a few days a week. Events are getting smaller, car count is lower and spectators do not exist at local levels. National Trails is lucky because it is the home of JEGS so JEGS runs events, series there.
Houses are closing in and I am sure it is only a matter of time till complaints outweigh benefits.

Enjoy what we have, yes the costs are out of control but I do not believe it has anything to do with the spectators attending.

 

[cknight]

Chase,
Not firing away, just being conversational.

You want to obsolete the blocks, cranks, rods, pistons, blocks, pumps and blowers and potentially tires and wheels?

Then you want all the teams to buy this new stuff and spend a year testing?

Even Connie would say that's too expensive.

I personally would rather have 11,ooo HP at 1,000 feet than 6-7,000 at 1320.

Alan

This was not particularly an "All of the above" request, just some thoughts to make things less expensive in the long run, and have more reliability.
The supercharger nowadays has some really long rotors that flex and twist, requiring constant servicing. Shorten them up for better life, and the boost will be self-policing. The current items can be sold for use in other venues. One good season of racing should inherently reduce your inventory, these things don't last forever.
Blocks can remain the same. You mentioned them twice, so that must have really caught your attention!
Pistons and rods are consumed like, well, see post #2. Cranks and sleeves close behind. Teams are buying them with regularity anyway, so what if the specs are a bit different. Less overall power, more life.
Today's fuel pumps make the inevitable explosion bigger. A spec pump will certainly be less money and last longer. Yes, this is one current item that probably wouldn't have much resale value.
Limiting the ignition and fuel management systems will require the tuners to be more conservative in order to make it through the less optimum segments of the track.
Keep 1000'. The last few years have produced the overall closest races by the nitro cars that I've seen in the 58 years that I've been around this sport. Personally, I prefer good close races, where you have to look at the scoreboard to see who won.
I believe that Goodyear could make a 1 or 1-1/2" narrower tire that would use the same wheels. These are another normally consumable item. My main concern would be the safety factor as less traction would be available. Same reason that less downforce could possibly be considered a hazard. Dragsters could reduce wing sizes, but reduction for the Funny Cars would probably require all new bodies, and lots of wind tunnel time. More expense for each.
Possibly increase the nitro percentage if the chosen changes are overkill and reduce performance excessively.
The one year warning would give the teams time to use up their inventory of items that would no longer be allowed. With today's resources, crew chiefs should not require excessive testing to get a baseline.
What happened to the performance limiting tests that NHRA "requested" over the last few years. What was tested and learned?
I would prefer 20-25 cars running 310 in 1000', than 12-14 running 330.
Thanks,, Chase

 

[Nunz]

If Goodyear ever redesigns their fuel tire, no matter the size, PLEASE use a rubber compound that makes billowing smoke again! To me, that is a huge part of the show that is lacking. Even if tuners don't want drivers making 1/8 mile burnouts, having the ability to create those billows of smoke really showed how powerful these cars are, and added to the pre-run drama. And I agree with those that have expressed the importance of communication between the teams and NHRA. I mean, we're not trying to get 300 people together at one time. We don't necessarily need to redesign the cars, but with the quality of components being produced now, some method of detuning a bit would allow everything to last a LOT longer, and greatly reduce the number of catastrophic boomers. Look at the number of privateers coming out to try and participate, if the financial model can be improved, it will allow these up and comers a better shot to build longer term programs.