More Evan Knoll......

[Rajunz]

Talk about a buzz kill, the last paragraph here outlines what could be a major drain on the sport:

Bang Shift : : Feds Heap Nine New Charges On Knoll - Court Appearance Today to Determine Mental Competency

 

[clwill]

I am not a lawyer, but as I understand it, what you knew and when you knew it is the key question. If you knew, or should have known, that the money was not from a legitimate enterprise, you can be asked to return it. If it was simply a fully arms-length business deal, you can't.

It's not clear to me how anyone who took sponsorship dollars from Knoll would know how his business finances worked. Even though it seemed like he was making a lot of money off a pretty basic business, it's just not obvious that it was a criminal enterprise. Until you saw the books...

 

[Greg]

I am not a lawyer, but as I understand it, what you knew and when you knew it is the key question. If you knew, or should have known, that the money was not from a legitimate enterprise, you can be asked to return it. If it was simply a fully arms-length business deal, you can't.

It's not clear to me how anyone who took sponsorship dollars from Knoll would know how his business finances worked. Even though it seemed like he was making a lot of money off a pretty basic business, it's just not obvious that it was a criminal enterprise. Until you saw the books...

I wish that was the case, but that's not reality. It's no different than being paid with a stolen credit card, forged check, etc. and when you're talking about the IRS, they are relentless.

 

[mick]

01/19/08 thread by knoll himself is quite an eye-opener, especially
to re-read.

article on bangshift states 68mill paid instead of 490k. (138x overpaid)
the potential implications are endless - the man was/is a cancer
on this sport, and the implications of his actions may only be
just beginning.

 

[Jer]

Evan Knoll competent to stand trial in federal tax-fraud case, psychologist testifies | MLive.com

 

[vegasnitro]

At first I thought there was no way the Feds could come after teams, then I remembered:

In California a guy was running an illegal ponzi scheme and lost $300,000 in an illegal poker game to actor Tobey Maguire. Tobey did not know the man or where he got the money, but the Feds still required Tobey to pay some of the money back (I think it was 60K). I really hope the Feds do not come after the teams ... the ramifications would be tragic ...

 

[Greg]

At first I thought there was no way the Feds could come after teams, then I remembered:

In California a guy was running an illegal ponzi scheme and lost $300,000 in an illegal poker game to actor Tobey Maguire. Tobey did not know the man or where he got the money, but the Feds still required Tobey to pay some of the money back (I think it was 60K). I really hope the Feds do not come after the teams ... the ramifications would be tragic ...

Exactly! There are a ton of examples to use. It's no different than if he got the money from a bank heist and sponsored people with it. Anyone who received money from him (not just racers, but even sanctioning bodies and other entities he sponsored) are open to this, and now is probably the time to get ready. I'm glad they are finally going to nail this POS. It makes me sick to see how many people somehow find solace in that at least he used the money to help racers live their dream. Live their dream at what cost? He's a criminal who used stolen money to make himself feel like a big shot, and now this clown may make the short-term dream feel like a nightmare for some.

 

[DrRocket]

This whole thing looks to me like a classic case of throwing spaghetti at the wall. They're throwing the whole platter to see what sticks.

From what I can gather from the linked articles, even if they only convict him on a few counts, he's still looking at a long time in jail. The thing about federal prosecutions is that if convicted, there's no such thing as early realease for good behavior. You do the time. About the only way to get out early is win a pardon.

It's my guess that as the trial approaches, he's going to have to seriously look at reaching a plea deal. It would be considered a "win/win" for both sides. Evan stands a chance of getting out of jail before he's an old man, and the prosecuters get their conviction and jail time without having to spend the time, effort and budget money on a full blown trial.

That's how I see it coming down anyway.

 

[willy]

See the picture of him in the Bangshift blurb. He don't look so good!

 

[.]

This whole thing looks to me like a classic case of throwing spaghetti at the wall. They're throwing the whole platter to see what sticks.

From what I can gather from the linked articles, even if they only convict him on a few counts, he's still looking at a long time in jail. The thing about federal prosecutions is that if convicted, there's no such thing as early realease for good behavior. You do the time. About the only way to get out early is win a pardon.

It's my guess that as the trial approaches, he's going to have to seriously look at reaching a plea deal. It would be considered a "win/win" for both sides. Evan stands a chance of getting out of jail before he's an old man, and the prosecuters get their conviction and jail time without having to spend the time, effort and budget money on a full blown trial.

That's how I see it coming down anyway.

Hahahahahahaha

Since 1919 the Fed has a 90% conviction rate in tax fraud. They don't chase unwarranted cases. And, without repayment, he gets no deal.

 

[Jim]

At first I thought there was no way the Feds could come after teams, then I remembered:

Ask the owners of the NY Mets.

Jim

 

[Rajunz]

However, those teams and the sanctioning body provided a service to Torco Racing Fuels and recieved payment for services. They had no clue that they were getting paid with stolen monies. Not sure how that will play into it.

 

[.]

However, those teams and the sanctioning body provided a service to Torco Racing Fuels and recieved payment for services. They had no clue that they were getting paid with stolen monies. Not sure how that will play into it.

Look at it this way. If I buy a stolen car from someone, and get caught, do you think they will let me keep the car if I tell them I didn't know it was stolen?

 

[HEMI6point1]

If the government does go after the teams and demands repayment it's going to financially ruin a lot of people.

 

[john]

It's my guess that as the trial approaches, he's going to have to seriously look at reaching a plea deal.

The Feds won't entertain a plea bargain in a case like this, he has serious problems to say the least.

 

[.]

If the government does go after the teams and demands repayment it's going to financially ruin a lot of people.

So what? Do you think its right that taxpayers pay for people to go racing?

 

[Jeff]

I think it works a little differently than the way some of you may be thinking.

The government put money in Torco's account that they evidently ultimately did not deserve ... the concept of stolen property does not apply (e.g. when a check is written out of that same account to pay a sponsorship for example).

When someone is paid a commercial rate for a service, I don't think the fraudulent transfer concepts apply to the purchase of that service. But when someone is paid above and beyond the commercial rate, then the "above and beyond" amount is subject to the fraudulent conveyance concept.

So in the case of these sponsorships, the question is would some official consider some part of the payment to be above and beyond what is normally paid for a sponsorship. I still don't see anyone taking the time to split hairs on this, but if you were living on bread and water before and after Torco and steak and beer while they were around ....that new "insert racing asset here" that you bought might catch their eye.

If I've got the concept wrong, I welcome the correction. While I DON'T agree that the "IRS makes up the rules as the go" I do agree that they have a reasonably wide berth in how they apply the rules available to them.

 

[HEMI6point1]

So what? Do you think its right that taxpayers pay for people to go racing?

In a way the taxpayers do pay for people to go racing. US Army top fuel car ring a bell? Sure it comes out of the advertizing budget, but who do you think ultimately foots the bill for that budget?

And to be honest, all the teams that took his money thought that it was a legit business at the time. Nobody really questioned anything as long as the checks kept clearing.

 

[john]

If the Feds wanted to recover money from these teams they would already know about it.

 

[.]

If the Feds wanted to recover money from these teams they would already know about it.

Unless Knoll steps up to the plate and covers what he stole, you can bet the IRS will come knockin some day after and if he is convicted.