Force and T Ped going at it in the shutdown?

[jpee]

His car is about as much a Ford as a tuna fish is a cow.

Yup but what does Brent have against JF for using a For Car ???? I'm a Chevy man myself, I've always driven them (have a Corvette & Caviler now) Used to race a Camaro, but in my old age cant afford Comp eliminator anymore, so I bracket race the Vette

Brent is that the reason for your not liking JF because he drives a Ford ? I was just wondering...

There are some Pro drivers I Don't like, and others i like a lot... honestly there are very few I really "Dislike" none in Pro Stock, or TF there are 2 or 3 in FC I don't like... (Not a hater) but root against them no matter who they are racing....

 

[Billy]

I'm with you 100%.. but as you say (above) Gary wouldn't take a "Dive"... ok let me play the devils advocate...

If the Owner/Boss told Gary (or any other driver) to "Be a little LATE" on the tree, and "blip the throttle" to prevent tire shake... (you get my point)

And either Gary or the driver who was driving said to the boss "No I'm not gonna Dive"

Well now the owner has to either fire him on the spot.. or talk to the crew chief.. and make sure "THAT" car (no matter who is driving it) will have a Very Short Fuse... maybe forget to torque the head bolts, and blow it up at the 330' costing the "Boss" $50,000 for a new motor.. or just put too much clutch in it, (but as we now know NHRA looked at the tune up on John F car) and they (NHRA) said the tune up looked ok... so there is No Argument there.... and as for John picking the Right lane.. well he explained it.. his daughter had just won in that lane, & he had to peddle it in the Left lane earlier in the day...

Another thought... do you remember when one of Kenny Bernstein's crew Forgot To Put Oil In His TF Car and they had to shut it down on the line..... S**T happens, but if a race is going to be decided in the pits, the team owner can make it happen either with or without the drivers consent... IMHO ...
You thoughts..... ??

Depends on the owner and driver involved. If Alan Johnson were to tell Del Worsham to take a little off his fastball and Del refused, there would be another driver in that car at the next race. Not that there are a whole bunch of drivers available out there with Del's skill level but Alan probably wouldn't accept insubordination from anyone. On the other hand, if John Force told Ashley she had to take one for the team and she refused, I can't see Ashley getting replaced under those or any other circumstances.

Remember Al Hofmann literally getting out of Jim Dunn's car at the Gatornationals and walking away after they had their big falling out? Ironically, after Al had his major accident in the final round in Gainesville in 1997, he put Jeff Arend in the car but after Jeff had a problem or two getting the car down the track, Al cut him loose. There have been numerous incidents of owners letting drivers go so I could see that happening in your example depending on who was involved. And I don't think any reputable owner would have the crew chief doctor a car without the driver knowing if the driver refused to obey team orders. Now you're looking at a safety issue and I would hope that kind of thing wouldn't be considered.

I remember the Bernstein incident. I believe it was in Dallas in 1998. Lee Beard was tuning for Kenny at the time and when they fired the car up behind the waterbox, Lee noticed there was something wrong. He walked over to the cockpit, leaned down and looked at the oil pressure gauge and saw there was no oil pressure. He obviously knew what had happened and slammed his ear protectors to the ground in disgust.

 

[John Farce Racing]

And THAT, as the saying goes, is where the rubber meets the road.

In 2003 at the U.S. Nationals (ironically), I was sitting in the VIP suite hanging with Gary Scelzi who had joined Schumacher Racing that year. I asked him if he had yet been asked to execute team orders. He said at that point, he hadn't. I asked him what he would do if he were asked and he said, "There's no way I would do that. I'm a racer and I race to win." I told him I respected his feelings, but also that at some point, he would be facing a very tough decision which could impact his employability.

Most of you remember the incident in Seattle soon thereafter when Gary raced Whit Bazemore in the second round with Whit in position to take the points lead. I was the top end reporter for ESPN at the time and conducted the interview with Gary. After losing handily to Whit, Gary was visibly shaken, emotionally distraught, and literally looked like he would puke when he exited his car. Gary stayed with that team for several more years, won a championship in 2005, and in my opinion, belongs on the Top 5 of the greatest Top Fuel and Funny Car drivers of the past two decades, if not in history. I can also tell you that what happened in Seattle that day (and on any other occcasion where he was required to abide by team orders) has always stuck in Gary's craw.

Sure, the four devastating accidents he suffered in the span of three years had something to do with his decision to step away, but Gary Scelzi is also not the kind of driver who can comfortably race in an era when team orders come into play. I think he made the right decision, although the sport has lost one of its genuine stars.

And BTW, nobody takes greater pride and satisfaction--on or off the record--than Gary for winning the 2005 championship.

Bill, thanks for posting. Quick question for you. If I remember right, Whit Bazemore was pretty disappointed to win Seattle like that. was that your observation also ?

 

["Dr. Dirt"]

And I feel the exact opposite. I've lost almost all respect for Team Force, especially John. I used to really like the guy years ago but when he switched to Ford I didn't care for him so much. I still liked him though. Not any more!

Oh please Brent, please share with us all some of your posts in the past praising anything Force. You can't lose what you never had.

 

[Smiley]

OK I'll chime in - I haven't seen this point brought up, so I'll throw it out there.

If John's choice of the right lane was made, knowing that it would give Robert a better chance at getting down track and the car never drifted, broke loose, etc, but Robert won because of it..

Would this still be an issue.

Would purposely taking the "bad" lane to give your teammate an advantage be considered "diving" or "unsportsmanlike"?

 

["Dr. Dirt"]

OK I'll chime in - I haven't seen this point brought up, so I'll throw it out there.

If John's choice of the right lane was made, knowing that it would give Robert a better chance at getting down track and the car never drifted, broke loose, etc, but Robert won because of it..

Would this still be an issue.

Would purposely taking the "bad" lane to give your teammate an advantage be considered "diving" or "unsportsmanlike"?

It depends 100% upon who is being asked.

 

[Scott]

With TPed and CPed meeting 4 times already this year(Tony leads 3-1), there is a good chance these 2 will meet at least once in the next 6 races.

If Cruz *allegedly* pulls a triple lindy against Tony, things will get interesting again.

 

[bodyman]

OK
How about this one

If John was going to intentionally drive his car out of the groove to intentionally smoke the tires, He could have done it just as well from the left lane . So to me, it didnt make a difference which lane he chose, SO I dont see the big fuss over all of this lane choice stuff

 

[willy]

I would like to thank Bill Stephens for his comments on this issue.

Good stuff, Bill. The Scelzi incident..I believe..is probably the attitude of most drivers. And Whit's disgust as well.

I see the latest as a little different. Hight is now in the clowndown. Now we move on. Top ten get it on. If you think the dives are over...pfft..just begun I'm afraid.

 

[Billy]

Bill, thanks for posting. Quick question for you. If I remember right, Whit Bazemore was pretty disappointed to win Seattle like that. was that your observation also ?

I don't believe Whit ever went public about the incident. Privately, he expressed the opinion that "Force does it all the time" or words to that effect and I'm sure we all remember the bitter sentiments which ricocheted between those two teams. I remember he was upbeat that he had taken the points lead but I think he directed any inquiries about the team orders to Don Schumacher. It was a very delicate situation. Don was interviewed about it and at first stated that the crew chiefs make the decisions on lane choice. Then he reversed his statement a bit later and said he was involved in the decisions.

I will say this: I don't think team orders had been openly addressed on NHRA TV coverage up until that incident. It surely had not been implied by race commentators and the genie was now coming out of the bottle. Don apparently wasn't quite sure how to effectively answer the questions honestly without taking heat from the fans. I could synpathize with his position, and believe me, Don and I have had our differences in the past.

Now, do you remember what happened the following week in Sonoma? Whit and Gary faced each other again in Round 2, no team orders were invoked, evidenced by the fact both drivers had decent lights and Gary won by only 2/100 of a second-- in essence undoing the 20-point gift he was told to give his teammate a week earlier.

God, I love this sport.

 

[John Farce Racing]

Bill, another question if you don't mind. What do you think are the long term ramifications of team orders on the sport? There seem to be two camps in this debate. One seems to think it's no big deal as long as their favorite guy does it and and it's just business. Others, me included, think that it's pretty bad for the sport.

 

[.]

Oh please Brent, please share with us all some of your posts in the past praising anything Force. You can't lose what you never had.

I liked him enough at one time to buy some shirts for myself and diecasts as gifts to my dad.

 

[.]

I remember the Bernstein incident. I believe it was in Dallas in 1998. Lee Beard was tuning for Kenny at the time and when they fired the car up behind the waterbox, Lee noticed there was something wrong. He walked over to the cockpit, leaned down and looked at the oil pressure gauge and saw there was no oil pressure. He obviously knew what had happened and slammed his ear protectors to the ground in disgust.

I remember Beard being interviewed right after that and he was so pissed he was literally shaking while he was talking. I'm surprised there wasn't smoke coming out of his ears because he was absolutely livid.

 

[clwill]

One seems to think it's no big deal as long as their favorite guy does it and and it's just business.

Then there's me, who thinks it's unfortunate that it's come this far, but it has, and it is just teamwork/business. I really don't think it matters who it is, but it's gonna happen so you all better just get over it. Heck, even learn to live with it, and maybe even try to see it as teamwork at its best.

 

[ch3no282]

So here's my two cents for what its worth. First off I am a huge John Force fan. Have been since I started going to Pomona at the tender age of 2. Tony and Cruz need to quit crying. When they win 14 championships and do for the sport what John and his teams have then they can complain. John Force is the greatest thing any form of motorsports has. He is the only one the NHRA will listen to. Dim Light needs to get a clue anyway. I dont know what the hell has happened to the NHRA over the last couple years but I've watched a sport I've grown up on and love dearly go down the tubes. It amazes me how stupid they are. I wont rant anymore. Just my opinion.

 

[Randy]

OK
How about this one

If John was going to intentionally drive his car out of the groove to intentionally smoke the tires, He could have done it just as well from the left lane . So to me, it didnt make a difference which lane he chose, SO I dont see the big fuss over all of this lane choice stuff

Now some of the experts here might say that JF wanted RH to have the better lane so he would end up having lane choice in the final and/or not risk RH's chances of smoking the tires.

However, other experts here would argue that blood is thicker than water and he would rather his offspring have the lane choice in the final instead of extending that courtesy to the in-laws. He took the right lane thinking it was actually the better lane, which it may have been. In the very next pair, Tony got his but whipped in the left lane.

But, if you ask me...I don't have a clue.

.

 

[Randy]

So here's my two cents for what its worth. First off I am a huge John Force fan. Have been since I started going to Pomona at the tender age of 2. Tony and Cruz need to quit crying. When they win 14 championships and do for the sport what John and his teams have then they can complain. John Force is the greatest thing any form of motorsports has. He is the only one the NHRA will listen to. Dim Light needs to get a clue anyway. I dont know what the hell has happened to the NHRA over the last couple years but I've watched a sport I've grown up on and love dearly go down the tubes. It amazes me how stupid they are. I wont rant anymore. Just my opinion.

I know I shouldn't ask, but I have to.

You connect yourself to this team in a borderline lip-lock by saying "First off I am a huge John Force fan. Have been since I started going to Pomona at the tender age of 2...John Force is the greatest thing any form of motorsports has." Then you say "When they (other teams) win 14 championships and do for the sport what John and his teams have then they can complain."

In examining your thinking, you would have to conclude that it would be OK for Kobe Bryant to drop kick O'Neil right where it counts during the NBA playoffs, and O'Neil would not be entitled to complain because the Lakers have won more championships than his team has.

Then you say "He (Force) is the only one NHRA will listen to." Two sentences later you say "I dont know what the hell has happened to the NHRA over the last couple years but I've watched a sport I've grown up on and love dearly go down the tubes. It amazes me how stupid they are."

To many, it looks like you are saying NHRA is stupid because the only one they listen to is Force and that's why they have gone "down the tubes."

Is this what you are trying to say?

.

 

[big guy]

This thing nas been analized and over analized to death.Enough is enough.

 

[John Farce Racing]

I know I shouldn't ask, but I have to.

You connect yourself to this team in a borderline lip-lock by saying "First off I am a huge John Force fan. Have been since I started going to Pomona at the tender age of 2...John Force is the greatest thing any form of motorsports has." Then you say "When they (other teams) win 14 championships and do for the sport what John and his teams have then they can complain."

In examining your thinking, you would have to conclude that it would be OK for Kobe Bryant to drop kick O'Neil right where it counts during the NBA playoffs, and O'Neil would not be entitled to complain because the Lakers have won more championships than his team has.

Then you say "He (Force) is the only one NHRA will listen to." Two sentences later you say "I dont know what the hell has happened to the NHRA over the last couple years but I've watched a sport I've grown up on and love dearly go down the tubes. It amazes me how stupid they are."

To many, it looks like you are saying NHRA is stupid because the only one they listen to is Force and that's why they have gone "down the tubes."

Is this what you are trying to say?

.

Fantastic post Randy!

 

[Billy]

Bill, another question if you don't mind. What do you think are the long term ramifications of team orders on the sport? There seem to be two camps in this debate. One seems to think it's no big deal as long as their favorite guy does it and and it's just business. Others, me included, think that it's pretty bad for the sport.

Team orders have existed for as long as racers needed lots of money to stay out there. Cyndi Lauper once sang, "Money Changes Everything" and therein lies the issue. For those who long for the old days of racing, be careful what you wish for. The list of benefits which the sport has enjoyed ever since Corporate America found some profitability in drag racing has unquestionably fueled the growth and financial viability of what was once a Third World country in the motorsports universe.

Team orders are distasteful to many fans, but as I've already pointed out, in the minds of stick-and-ball fans, so are artificial turf, the designated hitter in Major League Baseball, and the host of new NFL rules which have been imposed recently to protect the quarterback. Yet, those sports all charge ahead, just as popular as ever.

Team orders won't kill drag racing unless those orders are employed between competing teams--which I'm reasonably sure will never happen. One other point: There are 24 races each year which equate to 96 total rounds of eliminations. Cruz Pedregon won the Funny Car championship last year and amassed a 37-20 round record. He raced his brother Tony a total of two times all year. Whether or not any team orders were employed, Cruz had to win 35 other rounds of racing against other drivers to put himself in position to win the title.

In 2007, Tony Pedregon won 30 rounds of racing out of a possible 96 to win the championship. He raced Cruz three times all year. Cruz could have basically shut the car off every time he staged against his brother but Tony would have still needed to win 27 other rounds to win the title.

"OK, Bill", you're saying. "What about John Force? He has four cars, not two, so if he plays it right with team orders, he's got a huge advantage over everyone else." Well, last year John raced one of his other drivers a total of nine times. If he makes the call on every one of them, he scores an extra 180 points. That would still put him 78 points behind Cruz for last years's championship. It's not what happens when teammates race each other that usually decides a championship. It's how a driver does against everyone else that has the greatest impact.