Force and T Ped going at it in the shutdown? (1 Viewer)

[Billy]

Bill, another question if you don't mind. What do you think are the long term ramifications of team orders on the sport? There seem to be two camps in this debate. One seems to think it's no big deal as long as their favorite guy does it and and it's just business. Others, me included, think that it's pretty bad for the sport.

Team orders have existed for as long as racers needed lots of money to stay out there. Cyndi Lauper once sang, "Money Changes Everything" and therein lies the issue. For those who long for the old days of racing, be careful what you wish for. The list of benefits which the sport has enjoyed ever since Corporate America found some profitability in drag racing has unquestionably fueled the growth and financial viability of what was once a Third World country in the motorsports universe.

Team orders are distasteful to many fans, but as I've already pointed out, in the minds of stick-and-ball fans, so are artificial turf, the designated hitter in Major League Baseball, and the host of new NFL rules which have been imposed recently to protect the quarterback. Yet, those sports all charge ahead, just as popular as ever.

Team orders won't kill drag racing unless those orders are employed between competing teams--which I'm reasonably sure will never happen. One other point: There are 24 races each year which equate to 96 total rounds of eliminations. Cruz Pedregon won the Funny Car championship last year and amassed a 37-20 round record. He raced his brother Tony a total of two times all year. Whether or not any team orders were employed, Cruz had to win 35 other rounds of racing against other drivers to put himself in position to win the title.

In 2007, Tony Pedregon won 30 rounds of racing out of a possible 96 to win the championship. He raced Cruz three times all year. Cruz could have basically shut the car off every time he staged against his brother but Tony would have still needed to win 27 other rounds to win the title.

"OK, Bill", you're saying. "What about John Force? He has four cars, not two, so if he plays it right with team orders, he's got a huge advantage over everyone else." Well, last year John raced one of his other drivers a total of nine times. If he makes the call on every one of them, he scores an extra 180 points. That would still put him 78 points behind Cruz for last years's championship. It's not what happens when teammates race each other that usually decides a championship. It's how a driver does against everyone else that has the greatest impact.

 

[John Farce Racing]

Team orders have existed for as long as racers needed lots of money to stay out there. Cyndi Lauper once sang, "Money Changes Everything" and therein lies the issue. For those who long for the old days of racing, be careful what you wish for. The list of benefits which the sport has enjoyed ever since Corporate America found some profitability in drag racing has unquestionably fueled the growth and financial viability of what was once a Third World country in the motorsports universe.

Team orders are distasteful to many fans, but as I've already pointed out, in the minds of stick-and-ball fans, so are artificial turf, the designated hitter in Major League Baseball, and the host of new NFL rules which have been imposed recently to protect the quarterback. Yet, those sports all charge ahead, just as popular as ever.

Team orders won't kill drag racing unless those orders are employed between competing teams--which I'm reasonably sure will never happen. One other point: There are 24 races each year which equate to 96 total rounds of eliminations. Cruz Pedregon won the Funny Car championship last year and amassed a 37-20 round record. He raced his brother Tony a total of two times all year. Whether or not any team orders were employed, Cruz had to win 35 other rounds of racing against other drivers to put himself in position to win the title.

In 2007, Tony Pedregon won 30 rounds of racing out of a possible 96 to win the championship. He raced Cruz three times all year. Cruz could have basically shut the car off every time he staged against his brother but Tony would have still needed to win 27 other rounds to win the title.

"OK, Bill", you're saying. "What about John Force? He has four cars, not two, so if he plays it right with team orders, he's got a huge advantage over everyone else." Well, last year John raced one of his other drivers a total of nine times. If he makes the call on every one of them, he scores an extra 180 points. That would still put him 78 points behind Cruz for last years's championship. It's not what happens when teammates race each other that usually decides a championship. It's how a driver does against everyone else that has the greatest impact.

Bill, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I understand what you are saying, I really do. But between the diving, the 1000 Ft. racing and the countdown, NHRA drag racing is losing my interest pretty quickly, and thats kinda sad, since I have followed it since the early 70's. I'm only one fan so it's no big deal, NHRA will never know I'm gone. Oh well, life goes on.

Totally off topic, but is there any drag racing database that has any info on races as far back as the early 70's. My dad took me to my first race at a track that I believe was called Cornhusker raceway near Omaha. It seemed to be a pretty big race, and I remember the Green Angel car being there but thats about it.

 

[Billy]

There have been some disillusioned drag racing fans getting happy feet lately, no argument there. Pinpointing the exact reasons for that is a flimsy science but the factors you pointed out have been mentioned regularly.

There are a few sources for 30-year-old data but not much of it is available to the average fan. Bob Frey has a huge data archive that goes back to the 1950's and 60's but no mortal human will ever get anywhere near it. Rick Vogelin also has a very comprehensive stat archive, as does Lewis Bloom. I have one but it's not nearly as complete as those owned by the people mentioned above. There are other people who maintain drag racing stats such as Bret Kepner, Bill Pratt at DragList.com, etc. Even National Dragster has lots of historical data but most of it isn't accessible to the general population.

 

[John Farce Racing]

There have been some disillusioned drag racing fans getting happy feet lately, no argument there. Pinpointing the exact reasons for that is a flimsy science but the factors you pointed out have been mentioned regularly.

There are a few sources for 30-year-old data but not much of it is available to the average fan. Bob Frey has a huge data archive that goes back to the 1950's and 60's but no mortal human will ever get anywhere near it. Rick Vogelin also has a very comprehensive stat archive, as does Lewis Bloom. I have one but it's not nearly as complete as those owned by the people mentioned above. There are other people who maintain drag racing stats such as Bret Kepner, Bill Pratt at DragList.com, etc. Even National Dragster has lots of historical data but most of it isn't accessible to the general population.

Thanks for the information Bill. Is there a reason why the people/organization listed above don't make it available the the masses? Too much work to organize it? Saving it for a future book or something? Just curious.....

 

[ch3no282]

Team orders have existed for as long as racers needed lots of money to stay out there. Cyndi Lauper once sang, "Money Changes Everything" and therein lies the issue. For those who long for the old days of racing, be careful what you wish for. The list of benefits which the sport has enjoyed ever since Corporate America found some profitability in drag racing has unquestionably fueled the growth and financial viability of what was once a Third World country in the motorsports universe.

Team orders are distasteful to many fans, but as I've already pointed out, in the minds of stick-and-ball fans, so are artificial turf, the designated hitter in Major League Baseball, and the host of new NFL rules which have been imposed recently to protect the quarterback. Yet, those sports all charge ahead, just as popular as ever.

Team orders won't kill drag racing unless those orders are employed between competing teams--which I'm reasonably sure will never happen. One other point: There are 24 races each year which equate to 96 total rounds of eliminations. Cruz Pedregon won the Funny Car championship last year and amassed a 37-20 round record. He raced his brother Tony a total of two times all year. Whether or not any team orders were employed, Cruz had to win 35 other rounds of racing against other drivers to put himself in position to win the title.

In 2007, Tony Pedregon won 30 rounds of racing out of a possible 96 to win the championship. He raced Cruz three times all year. Cruz could have basically shut the car off every time he staged against his brother but Tony would have still needed to win 27 other rounds to win the title.

"OK, Bill", you're saying. "What about John Force? He has four cars, not two, so if he plays it right with team orders, he's got a huge advantage over everyone else." Well, last year John raced one of his other drivers a total of nine times. If he makes the call on every one of them, he scores an extra 180 points. That would still put him 78 points behind Cruz for last years's championship. It's not what happens when teammates race each other that usually decides a championship. It's how a driver does against everyone else that has the greatest impact.

Man if that doesn't hit the nail on the head I dont know what does. Thanks Bill for the insight.

 

[Billy]

Thanks for the information Bill. Is there a reason why the people/organization listed above don't make it available the the masses? Too much work to organize it? Saving it for a future book or something? Just curious.....

Basically, the amount of time it would take to fulfill the requests of people wanting certain stats would be overwhelming. Someday, someone may post every relevant drag racing stat dating back to the 1950's on the Internet but I wouldn't imagine it would be a free service.

 

[willy]

Thanks for the information Bill. Is there a reason why the people/organization listed above don't make it available the the masses? Too much work to organize it? Saving it for a future book or something? Just curious.....

Bill works awful hard on his site, Duane.

Drag Racing List - Drag Racing Stats, Stories, and Photos

Yea..between Frey, Kepner & Bloom..good grief, would take a massive server to hold the knowledge/stats in their possession.

 

[Speed1288]

Here's how I see the whole "dive" situation

Is it right? No

Do I understand? Yes

I would've been more surprised if Force won, I think we all saw the dive coming

Like the Whit interview said "its just business..."

 

[ch3no282]

I know I shouldn't ask, but I have to.

You connect yourself to this team in a borderline lip-lock by saying "First off I am a huge John Force fan. Have been since I started going to Pomona at the tender age of 2...John Force is the greatest thing any form of motorsports has." Then you say "When they (other teams) win 14 championships and do for the sport what John and his teams have then they can complain."

In examining your thinking, you would have to conclude that it would be OK for Kobe Bryant to drop kick O'Neil right where it counts during the NBA playoffs, and O'Neil would not be entitled to complain because the Lakers have won more championships than his team has.

Then you say "He (Force) is the only one NHRA will listen to." Two sentences later you say "I dont know what the hell has happened to the NHRA over the last couple years but I've watched a sport I've grown up on and love dearly go down the tubes. It amazes me how stupid they are."

To many, it looks like you are saying NHRA is stupid because the only one they listen to is Force and that's why they have gone "down the tubes."

Is this what you are trying to say?

.

Not what I was trying to say. What I meant is that the NHRA needs to listen to other Drivers/teams besides John. He has great ideas as far as safety is concerned however it seems that the higher ups at the NHRA have no clue what they are doing. Graham Light is clueless. The countdown is a joke. Changing the points system in the middle of the season???? Force has the most "pull" around the pits. If that means that other teams/drivers relay opinions/changes through him then so be it. Its been made pretty clear in my opinion that NHRA is not a fan of daddy Schumacher and he is the next biggest "individual out there. I dont know what more can be done. They wont listen to the fans or PRO. Its just terrible the way things are going right now.

 

[John Farce Racing]

Bill works awful hard on his site, Duane.

Drag Racing List - Drag Racing Stats, Stories, and Photos

Yea..between Frey, Kepner & Bloom..good grief, would take a massive server to hold the knowledge/stats in their possession.

Nice! thanks for the link David.

 

[HEMI6point1]

Now that I have actually seen all the telecast yesterday, here is my rusted out 2 cents:

Sure the run was suspect, but the tech dept found it wasn't a dive so I'm going to go with what they said.

Cruz at the starting line whining "He cheats!" was the mark of a sore loser. Hey Cruz, maybe if you didn't smoke the tires against Force you would still be in it, but you did so quit your b*tchin' and go back to your trailer!

I remember a mater here saying "the person who throws the first punch loses the argument." Tony P. did just that by calling Force a cheater and riling him up on national TV. Force stayed calm until that. Sure, he was wrong to shove the official but I'm guessing many people would have reacted the same way as Force did.

That's my opinion on this and I shall bow out now.

 

[camaro]

i dont see how anybody can take either side of these two teams. The pedregons displayed poor taste, no class, and just plain ol sour grapes in the way they handled things. Cruz and his team didnt get the job done thru out the year and was pretty munch only in a position to take whatever was given to them regardless of whatever happen. Force lied to the the TV audience about how he was gonna race hight straight up 'for the fans sake' and yet immediately goes in the tank for hight in an obvious fashion and then has the nerve to go into a lunatic rage when he is accused of throwin' the race. I personally hope that neither Force or pedregon win the championship and someone truly deserving wins instead !!

 

[mike]

does anybody think Force would have lied with such veracity if the rules didn't paint the team into the that corner?

as long as NHRA allows teams there will be team orders, and as long as NHRA makes team orders illegal people will lie about it...that sucks, but that's the way it's gunna be as long as those teams are required to answer to their sponsors

 

[Randy]

does anybody think Force would have lied with such veracity if the rules didn't paint the team into the that corner?

as long as NHRA allows teams there will be team orders, and as long as NHRA makes team orders illegal people will lie about it...that sucks, but that's the way it's gunna be as long as those teams are required to answer to their sponsors

"It's not my fault. The rules made me do it."

.

 

[mike]

"It's not my fault. The rules made me do it."

.

respect the hell outta ya but

you honestly think that Force would have reacted the same way in the pre-race interviews if there wasn't the real threat of being disqualified for having to make that unpleasant business decision?

 

[Randy]

respect the hell outta ya but

you honestly think that Force would have reacted the same way in the pre-race interviews if there wasn't the real threat of being disqualified for having to make that unpleasant business decision?

Then he should have kept his mouth shut instead of fanning fake outrage followed by saying they would race straight up when asked. I guess I was raised differently.

 

[Al smith]

Bow down before the one you serve, your going to get what you deserve.

Then he should have kept his mouth shut instead of fanning fake outrage followed by saying they would race straight up when asked. I guess I was raised differently.

Its a wrestling show Randy. It incites viewership! The countdown to zero is what it is. "At the end of the day" The wally may as well be chocolate for all the meaning it has left. Actual NHRA "racing" now stops at the alcohol level. Name me one alky driver who ever took a dive. EVER. The rest of the "show" is for naive newbie fans and Groupies both female and male alike. Force spokesperson stevens tells us they can pee on our pants leg and we should LIKE it. Its such a shame. Know what its like? its like tearing the head off a child's favorite stuffed animal and handing it back to your next generation racer daughter and telling her to have fun playing with it. I can remember when John had a top fuel dragster he was toying with in the corner of his shop. one of his major sponsors flat out told him "John we pay you to represent us by racing these ford funny cars. Don't waste your time and our money with that top fuel car. Now there's a man no longer in control of his own destiny.

 

[jpee]

Re: Bow down before the one you serve, your going to get what you deserve.

I can remember when John had a top fuel dragster he was toying with in the corner of his shop. one of his major sponsors flat out told him "John we pay you to represent us by racing these ford funny cars. Don't waste your time and our money with that top fuel car. Now there's a man no longer in control of his own destiny.

I disagree... John could have said... I want to race TF... if you don't want to sponsor me.. so be it, I'll go elsewhere... He (John) was in FULL control of his dstiny... but he "Chose" to continue to receive $$ from Ford, and not race TF... He Could have ran the Dragsters if he wanted, but just wouldn't get Ford $$

 

[Al smith]

Bow down before the one you serve, your going to get what you deserve.

I disagree... John could have said... I want to race TF... if you don't want to sponsor me.. so be it, I'll go elsewhere... He (John) was in FULL control of his dstiny... but he "Chose" to continue to receive $$ from Ford, and not race TF... He Could have ran the Dragsters if he wanted, but just wouldn't get Ford $$

I don't think you understand. He wanted to toy with his dragster IN ADDITION to his already existing funny cars. Not instead of. He said "out of his own pocket". Problem was, his own pocket was being filled by a corporate entity which then dictated to him what he was to do in his spare time. Get it? John caved. And I immediately lost respect for both him and his sponsors.

 

[None]

This is kid's stuff.

Remember Earnhardt Jr. on the radio after he intentionally spun his own car for a caution?

In F1 they CRASH to help a teammate win:

FORMULA-ONE - F1: Alonso Knew About Singapore Crash - Piquet Sr - SPEEDtv.com