Force and T Ped going at it in the shutdown? (1 Viewer)

[Professor Dave]

If the tables were turned and it was Cruz that needed the round? Would Tony throw the run?

And the answer is no-see Brainerd!

 

[jackass]

I got to say.. this is some of the greatest TV ever shown......lol.... if played right... this could be NHRA's version of the 1979 Daytona 500 .. it could do for them what that evetn did for NASCAR....lol.....


i realy am in love with MIKE DUNN now....greatest tv moment of it all.... " can't prove he did it..but it stinks to all hell".. i think is hwo he said it.....lol


Billy

 

[cp]

I guess it goes back a couple of years ago. And John just was tired of it, and it all built up today

 

[Billy]

I'm reading everyone's posts with great fascination and curiosity. As many of you may know, I worked on the NHRA TV coverage for 11 years and still write NHRA stories for ESPN The Magazine. I don't want to offer any opinions on what happened today since John, Tony, and Cruz are all old friends who I'll be catching up with in Charlotte in a couple of weeks.

Several years ago, I wrote an article for Drag Racer Magazine called "If It Ain't Broke, Fix It" and it dealt with team orders. At the time, I interviewed several owners and drivers. The bottom line is, team orders do exist and the bigger the race, the round, and the stakes, the more likely they will be employed by EVERY multi-car team. It's a fact of life. Even teams which in the past absolutely refused to utilize team orders have changed their policy.

I also posed the question at the time, "Are team orders wrong? Are they hurting the sport?" Again, you'll get many differing opinions on that question.

In researching the article, I also asked Don Schunmacher at the time a hypothetical question. If he had two cars racing each other in the final round of the year at the AAA Finals and one of his drivers needed to win the round to win the championship while the other had nothing at stake except the race victory, would he make a call. I respect Don for telling me with complete candor, "I would probably have to step in."

This is not 1965. You cannot drag race in a professional category like we used to with a few thousand bucks, some spare parts, and a clapped out pickup truck pulling a tag trailer. And those days aren't coming back. If that is enough to convince you to abandon the sport, that's your decision. But the rules of the game changed when it became necessary for teams to acquire millions of dollars to race in the pro classes. And don't think for a minute that every pro team isn't feeling some financial heat in this economy, especially when some of the NHRA's most successful and respected owners like Kenny Bernstein and Don Prudhomme have to go shopping for new deals

Let me also add this for those who feel what happened today in Indy will hurt the sport. In 1979, Richard Petty won the Daytona 500 while Cale Yarborough, and Bobby and Donnie Allison were having a fistfight on the backstretch on live CBS television coverage of the race. I worked for CBS Sports covering NASCAR between 1995 and 2001 and can tell you that to this day, the 1979 Daytona 500 is the one event, which more than any other, contributed to the massive growth in popularity NASCAR enjoyed following that incident. I have always been a strong believer that when the emotion, passion, unexpected, unscripted, and unpredictable all fail to remain vital elements of a motorsport, it is in real danger of declining in popularity. And in fact, you can say the same thing about ANY sport.

So consider the question I put to Don Schumacher. You have a multi-million dollar sponsorship agreement, a team of drivers, crew chiefs, mechanics, and support staff who you're employing and who are depending on their jobs to support themselves and their families. You've worked all season to get into a position to win a championship, which will strengthen the relationship with your sponsors, most likely adding revenue from the endorsements which are sure to come after winning a title, not to mention the pride and prestige you and your team will feel after reaching the highest goal the sport has to offer. It's the last round of the year and your two drivers are about to race--one for the championship and the other for the event win.

What would you do?

 

[ROCKY]

I lost all respect for both Pedregon brothers. And I hate to say it, but Mike Dunn also.

 

[Watchman]

Did Force throw the race? yes

Can he admit it? no

Does Tony have reason to be mad? yes

I think it was very funny to see Force act like he wanted to fight Tony.

He is bordering on being frail.

He knows he would not have a prayer in a physical fight.

He just wanted tv ratings to go up the rest of the year.

I am not for or against either one of them.

I wonder how much Don Schumacher would have been fined if one of his cars had done this?

The problem is simply you have a rule that cannot be enforced when you say you have to be sure.

The reality is that Force and Schumacher have the ability to field multiple cars. Why is it that they cannot enjoy a side benefit?

I know it is not fair but what in this life is?

I would rather have it like it was when Connie Kallitta did this and was asked about it

His answer was "they are my cars I can do with them what I want to"

The real problem is not John or Tony but a rule that cannot be enforced.

Mike

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

......not to mention the pride and prestige you and your team will feel after reaching the highest goal the sport has to offer.

You had me until this sentence........

How can you feel any pride in a race or championship won with team orders?

Sean D

 

[Professor Dave]

I don't believe in coincidences and I find it strange that:

A) John chose the right lane
B) John had a .209 light (Robert had a safe .143 almost like he just wanted to stay green)
C) John drove it out of towards the wall immediately

ALL HAPPENED ON THE SAME RUN

I'd give him the benefit of the doubt if one of those three things happened on a run, but all three things happening on the same run it's pretty obvious what's going on. Tony P has been the voice of the fans for quite a while now, going back to the end of last year with 1000 feet and now with the diving issue. Tony could have laid down for Cruz in Brainerd, instead he decided to give the paying customer's a show and therefore his comments today were completely justified.

And did you see Brittney and Courtney Force laughing after that round? That's all the proof you need that the fix was in!

 

[d'kid]

The countdown is part of the current rules. Them using it to their advantage is in no way breaking those rules. If Force threw that race then he did break the rules. Pretty big difference.

How far back do we want to go? Larry clicking off early against Lenard at g'ville in '70... every time Minor tried to dump against Beck... every time someone was slipped a couple of c-notes to load their broken car up so the hero could get back in the show on the break-rule...

this ain't new by any stretch.

and I didn't know there was anything in the rule book that said you have to prove you really loss....

d'kid

 

["Dr. Dirt"]

Bobby, you know what I'm saying. Don't overdramatize it with the "civil offense" crap. If you've been there, and when I say "been there", I mean adrenaline jacked to the max and ready to go, you don't have the rational thoughts you speak of until after it goes down.

Sean, I played competitive athletics for thirty+ years and had thousands of opportunities to "respond" to provocations in the heat of the moment but I decided early that teaching my children by example was more important than from behind bars. If either one had thrown the first punch, I doubt they would be racing for a while. It's no time to hang up the helmet!
(Google Blount from Oregon)

You're absolutely right when you say there's too much at stake, which is what went wrong with this country to start with. I'm just sayin' if they wanted to, they would have. It was obvious their only agenda was being loud and drawing attention to themselves, which at the end of the day, was probably net good for the sport.

Sean D

We'll all have to discover what we want to believe in this deal. I happen to believe John was doing just fine congratulating his daughter for her win and really didn't need Tony calling him a cripple (pure class-cheap shot.) Others will only see what the telecast showed was the response. I wish I had a nickel for every time one of my teammates or kids teammates got a penalty for responding to something the referees didn't see. I believe this was one of those occasions. John's motivation to argue today was zero, nada, zilch. His team all locked into the countdown and his daughter just won the US Nationals at Indy. Does anyone really believe he would celebrate such a day by fighting with a bunch of sore losers unless he was sufficiently provoked? I seriously doubt it!

 

[Steveo]

I'm reading everyone's posts with great fascination and curiosity. As many of you may know, I worked on the NHRA TV coverage for 11 years and still write NHRA stories for ESPN The Magazine. I don't want to offer any opinions on what happened today since John, Tony, and Cruz are all old friends who I'll be catching up with in Charlotte in a couple of weeks.

Several years ago, I wrote an article for Drag Racer Magazine called "If It Ain't Broke, Fix It" and it dealt with team orders. At the time, I interviewed several owners and drivers. The bottom line is, team orders do exist and the bigger the race, the round, and the stakes, the more likely they will be employed by EVERY multi-car team. It's a fact of life. Even teams which in the past absolutely refused to utilize team orders have changed their policy.

I also posed the question at the time, "Are team orders wrong? Are they hurting the sport?" Again, you'll get many differing opinions on that question.

In researching the article, I also asked Don Schunmacher at the time a hypothetical question. If he had two cars racing each other in the final round of the year at the AAA Finals and one of his drivers needed to win the round to win the championship while the other had nothing at stake except the race victory, would he make a call. I respect Don for telling me with complete candor, "I would probably have to step in."

This is not 1965. You cannot drag race in a professional category like we used to with a few thousand bucks, some spare parts, and a clapped out pickup truck pulling a tag trailer. And those days aren't coming back. If that is enough to convince you to abandon the sport, that's your decision. But the rules of the game changed when it became necessary for teams to acquire millions of dollars to race in the pro classes. And don't think for a minute that every pro team isn't feeling some financial heat in this economy, especially when some of the NHRA's most successful and respected owners like Kenny Bernstein and Don Prudhomme have to go shopping for new deals

Let me also add this for those who feel what happened today in Indy will hurt the sport. In 1979, Richard Petty won the Daytona 500 while Cale Yarborough, and Bobby and Donnie Allison were having a fistfight on the backstretch on live CBS television coverage of the race. I worked for CBS Sports covering NASCAR between 1995 and 2001 and can tell you that to this day, the 1979 Daytona 500 is the one event, which more than any other, contributed to the massive growth in popularity NASCAR enjoyed following that incident. I have always been a strong believer that when the emotion, passion, unexpected, unscripted, and unpredictable all fail to remain vital elements of a motorsport, it is in real danger of declining in popularity. And in fact, you can say the same thing about ANY sport.

So consider the question I put to Don Schumacher. You have a multi-million dollar sponsorship agreement, a team of drivers, crew chiefs, mechanics, and support staff who you're employing and who are depending on their jobs to support themselves and their families. You've worked all season to get into a position to win a championship, which will strengthen the relationship with your sponsors, most likely adding revenue from the endorsements which are sure to come after winning a title, not to mention the pride and prestige you and your team will feel after reaching the highest goal the sport has to offer. It's the last round of the year and your two drivers are about to race--one for the championship and the other for the event win.

What would you do?

You're the BEST Bill!!! Thanks for offering us a look at this from another angle!

 

[Billy]

You had me until this sentence........

How can you feel any pride in a race or championship won with team orders?

Sean D

You can feel the pride and the prestige because you put yourself into position to win the championship and are employing the same strategies which have existed in every other racing series since the sport was born. I've seen it with my own two eyes countless times.

 

[lmhb oyf]

As I said in the other thread:

F*ck Force and F*ck the NHRA! You've lost a paying fan.

For the sheep that can't see that John didn't dive despite the rules (as correctly stated by TPed), keep drinking the Kool Aid.

Like Tony P. said....John should be ashamed of himself.

I'm done with this WWE crap.

 

[turbo ken]

And the answer is no-see Brainerd!

They were probably counting on Cruz's car to run good, and Roberts car to continue having problems at Indy. Cruz admitted that he stole the championship from Wilkerson last year, and now the Ped brothers start crying when the 10th place in the countdown get stolen from them.

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

You can feel the pride and the prestige because you put yourself into position to win the championship and are employing the same strategies which have existed in every other racing series since the sport was born. I've seen it with my own two eyes countless times.

I refuse to believe that the conscious fan wants titles to be sorted out that way. And I as a competitor couldn't consciously be proud of any wins gotten that way.

I'm not even forty years old, but I guess I'm still old fashioned.

Sean D

 

[JF]

You know I don't recall seeing that passenger seat that you were in in Johns Car. I guess ESPN didn't have the exact angle. But its a good thing that you were in there to let us know exactly what happened.[/QUOTE

It's pretty clear what lane John chose (incidentally what lane did Ashley choose in the final?) NHRA.com. Dragracecentral.com, and ESPN all reported a.209 light, so I don't know how that is up for debate. Mike Dunn said he drove it right out of the groove, and it seemed pretty clear to anyone that didn't have the JFR rose colored glasses on what was going on. As Dunn stated Force did a great job of keeping it in the groove in the first round. I should have known the keyboard crewchief or in this case keyboard driver quote was coming, I guess you've never watched a sporting event and had views different from the coach/manager.

As a matter of fact. I do drive a race car and know that what happened in the previous round is not necessarlly what happens in the following rounds.
Does it appear that way? Sure Do I or You Or Mike Dunn know that FOR A FACT that is what happened? No! Only one person knows John Force. BTW the way I'm not a Force or Tony Fan. Its what is right for Drag Racing Saying its true, Is a downright LIE, unless your John Force. or as I stated eariler sitting in the car with him, and even then it would be hard to say.

 

[kenny]

what was funny was cruz kissing johns ass after he lost to him hoping john would feel sorry for him and take hight out.He talked smack about john for years and paybacks are a beach aren`t they.john made tony, what would he be without john giving him a chance??

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

Sean, I played competitive athletics for thirty+ years and had thousands of opportunities to "respond" to provocations in the heat of the moment but I decided early that teaching my children by example was more important than from behind bars. If either one had thrown the first punch, I doubt they would be racing for a while. It's no time to hang up the helmet!(Google Blount from Oregon)

Bobby, I hear ya', and with very few exceptions, I employ the same restraint. But as a whole, we'll just have to agree to disagree because even though it's rare, I still think every now and then two men just may have to get out in the grass and 'rassle without the world comin' to an end.

But the world has gotten soft.

Sean D

 

[Terry]

So I should know better than to join in this, but what the hell. Here's my two cents worth.

I remember the furor and venom directed at DSR when they made a "questionable" lane choice at a one lane track.

I also remember two times when Connie put team orders into place, but the difference there was (if I remember correctly) one time a car was shut off on the line, and the other time the car didn't report to the line. And I don't remember Connie doing any interviews beforehand promising a "straight up race" for the fans.

It's a big business out there and you have to do what you need to for your team.

BUT, in this situation, John Force had a typically blustery interview before the round assuring everyone that the fix was NOT in, and he and Robert were going to "go out there and give the fans a good show".

Now, I personally believe John tanked for Robert (.2 something light and a car that made a quick move to the right without apparent tire shake or smoke, etc.) but that's up to each individual.

What I am trying to say here is that if you deem team orders necessary to achieve the goals needed for your team, then by all means exercise your rights to enlist them--it's your team and your ethics and beliefs will dictate them. But all I want is no story at all, or the straight story....if you are going to orchestrate a car going in the tank for the team, don't say anything, own up to what is happening, but for God's sake, don't do a big loud interview right before the race telling everyone you aren't going to do what is just about to happen.

Just my two cents worth....and that's probably about all it's worth. South Central Nebraska over and out.

 

[haagar]

How far back do we want to go? Larry clicking off early against Lenard at g'ville in '70... every time Minor tried to dump against Beck... every time someone was slipped a couple of c-notes to load their broken car up so the hero could get back in the show on the break-rule...

this ain't new by any stretch.

and I didn't know there was anything in the rule book that said you have to prove you really loss....

We aren't talking about what has happened in the past we are talking about what happened today under the current rules.

And if there isn't anything in the rules about proving you have to lose then NHRA put on a nice show about not being able to prove that Force didn't really lose.

Although if anyone knows where the rule is in the rulebook can they please post it because I couldn't find it.