Force and T Ped going at it in the shutdown? (1 Viewer)

[mike]

<snip a bunch of great stuff> Things change--sometimes for the better and sometimes not. But they change.

Great post Mr. Stephens!

it's no wonder folks pay you for what you have to say

 

[lmhb oyf]

Sorry.. they are trouble makers & poor sports!.. send them back to their "Home Country" then they can win everything in sight! Maybe Obama will even sponsor them with stimulus $$

They're US citizens just like you and I and I'm confused as to how President Obama has anything to do with it.

That kind of comment not only shows your ignorance but is the type of rhetoric that kept the republicans out of office this past election.

It's ok to love your country and be proud of it but spout out comments like that is uncalled for.

There's a lot more out there in this world than what your narrow mind seems to want to project. I suggest you expand and explore. You might be surprised.

Now back to the topic.

 

[lmhb oyf]

This goes back to the alleged favoritism shown to John Force racing in allowing Robert to drive John's car at a test session in Brainerd.

That and the fact that the rule was put into effect as a result of the DSR funny car teams a couple of years back.

If I remember correctly is was an issue between Scelzi and Bazemore.

 

[scooter]

Well said Mr. Stephens, well said.

 

[Greg]

Tony got lucky in regards to even being picked up by Force to begin with. He was destined to be nothing more than the occasional Team III driver. He didn't have anything monetarily to contribute, and Larry would just let him fill in from time to time. Let's face it, he wasn't on the road to winning much of anything driving Larry's 2nd McDonald's dragster that he brought out just for fun on occasion. Had it not been for Force, you probably would hear as much about Tony as you do Frank.

I'll always believe the only reason Force chose him to begin with was just to get under Cruz's skin. So Tony takes the job, "suffers" through 8 miserable years with Force (I don't see how his conscious let him last that long...must have been a good pay check I guess), he is given a championship, goes out on his own and then bashes the person that gave him his biggest break. Man, with friends like that who needs enemies? Let's not forget it was widely known back then that Tony's car was going to be for blocking and R&D, so he knew exactly what he was signing on for in the beginning. Even Mike Dunn acknowledged this fact on the broadcast.

But I guess in this day, desperate times, call for desperate measures. When the money is running out, you're using your ex-crew chief's old data, and you're probably unsure if you'll even have a team next year, you might as well go out with a bang I guess.

 

[clwill]

Bill Stephens is right on all counts. Look at the facts:

• Force threw that race. If you say he didn't you're lying to yourself. Even my 80-year old mother who was watching her first drag race caught that one.
• John couldn't admit to anything it because that would give NHRA the basis on which to toss it out. He executed the thing perfectly, in a way they couldn't catch him. If he had admitted it, it would be "the smoking gun".
• John HAD to throw it. Go back to the discussion about the Hight test thing, he said "Tom McKernan and AAA are all over me". You think they wouldn't be all over him if he didn't throw it?
• Someone in the Pedregon camp HAD to be indignant. Someone had to call them on it. Even if it did nothing.

Tony poked his finger in the bear cage. The bear went crazy. John getting crazy was not like John -- except in the cases when he's caught (see: the Lee Beard incident, where he DID burn them down, and now, where he DID throw the race). The only time John goes nuts is when he's guilty. Probably could ask Laurie about it, she'd tell you he does the same thing at home when he's caught...

Another fact: it's great theater, and ESPN covered it well. Gary Gerold asked the first hard questions of his career. Mike Dunn called it like he saw it, and not all wishy-washy. But John Kernan is my hero, he was outstanding today. Just spot on in tone, questions, everything. And had to have magnesium shorts on to do that Force interview...

 

[indidad- The Guy- Uncle Steve]

Now we know why! OMG Tony- how in the world can he stand there and cry about John throwing the race? And further- how is NHRA going to police that anyway? Let Olson look at the computer and disqualify from looking at the data? If the tables were turned and it was Cruz that needed the round? Would Tony throw the run?

Apparently, Mr. Name in Red, you missed the coverage from the BIR race a few weeks ago. Now shut your pie hole.

 

[NHRADeuce]

How can you feel any pride in a race or championship won with team orders?

Sean D

TPed can probably answer that. Seems to have been pretty good for him.

 

[Al smith]

I politely disagree with your assertions, Charles. The issue IS with John Force, Tony Pedregon, and Don Schumacher. They are team owners and because of the responsibility they bear to do everything within reason to win the championship, they employ team orders in instances where the risks are too great to leave the outcome to chance. I'm not here to defend the ethical ramifications of that. All I know is that until any of us find ourselves in a situation where several millions of dollars are hanging in the balance, we can prattle on about the indecency of team orders all we want with little danger of losing a dime. Let me also be clear as you were and I appreciate your thoughtful opinion.

anytime you have huge corporations dictating who should lose and who should win on a team. you cheapen the sport. it is then nothing more than reality tv. don't call it racing. because it isn't

The racers have a boss. It's the team owner. The team owner has a boss. It's the sponsor. No sponsor on the face of the earth is ever going to tell a team owner not to employ team orders. At the end of the year, no sponsor is going to tell a team owner, "Well, you had a chance to win the championship but, by golly, you didn't issue any team orders and the Brand X guys won the title. But we're so proud of you, we'll sponsor you again next year because, Good Galoshes, you race the old fashioned way".

If the corporations. the bosses, the owners are telling you to break the rules by diving. its nothing more than corruption.

In reality, Corporate America issues team orders in their own universe every day (especially on Wall St.) so having the race team they sponsor use them as well is no disgrace to them. Can we disagree on the ethical impact of team orders? Yes, but I don't believe they cheapen the sport because it's a tool that all the multi-car teams (in every racing series)use when they deem it necessary and, despite them, professional motorsports continue to command millions of fans worldwide. Most savvy racing fans view team orders as a tactical element to the sport. What would unquestionably cheapen the sport would be team orders issued between competing teams. Now you've got real problems.

Unfortunate that you and the 'fans' as you call them accept the moral and ethical standards of corporations like enron, Exxon, The banking industry. the medoffs of the world. yes lets bring those values into what was once a sport. its all about the dollars. Nothing to do with racing anymore. please don't insult my intelligence and claim its a sport. its entertainment and nothing more. .

No fan wants to think the outcome of any race is predetermined. But when you weigh the alternatives, such as multi-car teams losing their sponsors, car counts dwindling even more than they have, and fewer team owners willing to take on the financial risks of allowing a championship to evade their grasp because of a reluctance to employ a strategy his opponents make use of, the choice becomes more clear.

yes its all perfectly clear. money talks. racing walks

If you can create a 100% ironclad method of determining whether team orders have been employed, the NHRA is listening. Examining post-race data is not going to infallibly uncover a smoking gun no matter how skilled the investigator. There are so many ways to sabotage a run--either from the driver side of the equation or the mechanical side--that it's ludicrous to argue the point. And all it would take is one wrong decision by the sanctioning body as to whether a race was thrown to cause a firestorm of protests from team after team whenever a ruling was handed down. And THAT would cheapen the sport to such a degree that who would even take the risk of being accused of an infraction when there may have been no premeditated behavior whatsoever on their part?

maybe one or two cars per team maximum. the money and available sponsorships can be spread amongst 16 or more separate and unrelated team owners. the extended force family drivers can drive for different teams.

I'm reminded of the old story of the man who asked the woman if she would have sex with him for $50. She said, "No, I won't". Then he asked her if she would have sex with him for $100,000. She said, "For $100,000 I would." He then said, "Now that we've established what you are, all we need to discuss is the price". Every multi-car team employs team orders, and in the big picture, it underscores one of the main reasons for having one in the first place. NASCAR does it, F-1 does it, NHRA drag racing does it. The fans keep buying tickets, watching the TV coverage, and spending $$$ on hats, T-shirts, and diecast cars. Sponsors want championships and all the TV exposure that winning championships buys them. I remember when team orders were the definition of evil. I also remember when artificial turf, the designated hitter, expansion teams, the 3-point shot, moving the goalposts to the back of the end zone, merging the NFL and the AFL, the 75-minute between-round rule, hockey helmets, collective bargaining, and the salary cap were all going to be our downfalls. Things change--sometimes for the better and sometimes not. But they change.

now that we have established what you describe above is not drag racing. we can dispense with this nonsense and call it what it is. reality TV corporate prostitution. what you call a "championship" isn't. all the championship wally represents now is a marker for who can gather up the most corporate dollars during a season, and then follow the conditions dictated by those sponsorship dollars even including cheating, which you say every multi car team does. and get away with it. You don't have to wonder why the sports media doesn't take racing seriously. because it's not a sport. Its entertainment that the prostitute must pay ESPN to broadcast for them. don't bother attempting to convince the media that something that is scripted is a sport. it aint. and never will be,

 

[nitrojunky]

I'm reading everyone's posts with great fascination and curiosity. As many of you may know, I worked on the NHRA TV coverage for 11 years and still write NHRA stories for ESPN The Magazine. I don't want to offer any opinions on what happened today since John, Tony, and Cruz are all old friends who I'll be catching up with in Charlotte in a couple of weeks.

Several years ago, I wrote an article for Drag Racer Magazine called "If It Ain't Broke, Fix It" and it dealt with team orders. At the time, I interviewed several owners and drivers. The bottom line is, team orders do exist and the bigger the race, the round, and the stakes, the more likely they will be employed by EVERY multi-car team. It's a fact of life. Even teams which in the past absolutely refused to utilize team orders have changed their policy.

I also posed the question at the time, "Are team orders wrong? Are they hurting the sport?" Again, you'll get many differing opinions on that question.

In researching the article, I also asked Don Schunmacher at the time a hypothetical question. If he had two cars racing each other in the final round of the year at the AAA Finals and one of his drivers needed to win the round to win the championship while the other had nothing at stake except the race victory, would he make a call. I respect Don for telling me with complete candor, "I would probably have to step in."

This is not 1965. You cannot drag race in a professional category like we used to with a few thousand bucks, some spare parts, and a clapped out pickup truck pulling a tag trailer. And those days aren't coming back. If that is enough to convince you to abandon the sport, that's your decision. But the rules of the game changed when it became necessary for teams to acquire millions of dollars to race in the pro classes. And don't think for a minute that every pro team isn't feeling some financial heat in this economy, especially when some of the NHRA's most successful and respected owners like Kenny Bernstein and Don Prudhomme have to go shopping for new deals

Let me also add this for those who feel what happened today in Indy will hurt the sport. In 1979, Richard Petty won the Daytona 500 while Cale Yarborough, and Bobby and Donnie Allison were having a fistfight on the backstretch on live CBS television coverage of the race. I worked for CBS Sports covering NASCAR between 1995 and 2001 and can tell you that to this day, the 1979 Daytona 500 is the one event, which more than any other, contributed to the massive growth in popularity NASCAR enjoyed following that incident. I have always been a strong believer that when the emotion, passion, unexpected, unscripted, and unpredictable all fail to remain vital elements of a motorsport, it is in real danger of declining in popularity. And in fact, you can say the same thing about ANY sport.

So consider the question I put to Don Schumacher. You have a multi-million dollar sponsorship agreement, a team of drivers, crew chiefs, mechanics, and support staff who you're employing and who are depending on their jobs to support themselves and their families. You've worked all season to get into a position to win a championship, which will strengthen the relationship with your sponsors, most likely adding revenue from the endorsements which are sure to come after winning a title, not to mention the pride and prestige you and your team will feel after reaching the highest goal the sport has to offer. It's the last round of the year and your two drivers are about to race--one for the championship and the other for the event win.

What would you do?

Bill this is perfect and I do mean that literally. You can agree or disagree with "Team Orders" but they exist and anyone who thinks (especially in this environment) that they wouldn't do the same thing can feel secure in fact that they will never find themselves in that position. This has become a business and it will never be a "low budget" sport again. I don't like races being thrown but also don't like hypocrites who will accept a job and a salary for 8 years doing the same thing and then when it works against him, cry foul. Get a grip folks, this is now officially part of the game.

 

[megadeth]

Bob,

if you look at 28 seconds into the video, you can clearly see that Tony reached out and pushed John -- and that's why John took his hat off and slammed it down to the ground.

And Tony was hardly calm, cool, and collected. He exuded arrogance, and he knew EXACTLY what he was doing.

Jeremy I just watched it again and again on my DVR and Tony never touched him! He threw his hat down almost like a lets go gesture and Tony did even flinch or buy into it.

Just listen to Mike Dunn he even called it before they left the line that it was highly suspect from just the lane choice then he went on to say it will be hard to prove but very obvious.
Jim even stated that they will find nothing because he drove it out of the groove on purpose, but because these cars are so unpredictable, there will always be a possibility, but he highly doubts it.
Force claimed his daughter just beat him (Tony) in that right lane well she had no choice Tony had lane choice and it wouldn't boost his argument cause she kept it in the goove!

 

[Rusty]

I always enjoy the read here - good opportunity to see opposing sides. I thought drivers like Head, Haddock and Densham were the little guys - not the multi-car teams. BTW there's a Castrol sale at Advanced Auto Parts tomorrow.

This thread is pretty much beat to death, but I guess NHRA is getting what they want from the countdown...a little mid season drama. This certainly wasn't a Cale/Donnie fight...this was a couple of multimillionares yelling at each other. It will get the sport some press which I guess is good, but its a shame it detracts from the other stories...

I'm a Force fan, but there's no doubt it was the best dive since the Harley's at Pomona. IMHO the NHRA made there bed when they didn't step up on that incident despite firm prior warnings. Nobody cares because it was the bikes, but that made this look almost explainable and that was for the championship.

The corporate die had already been cast.

 

[RickyD]

Here is the way I see it, you can't blame Force for diving, period. You can't blame the Peds for complaining (although they were hypocritical) You can't blame John for not admitting to it (NHRA won't allow diving). You certainly can't blame ESPN for helping to enhance controversy, that is their job. The biggest blame here has to go directly to the sanctioning body for allowing multi-car teams and in the same breath not allowing diving. That is the most hypocritical thing they can do. I have no problem with multi-car teams but somebody didn't do their homework. Just change the rules to allow what is going to happen yet is un-enforceable. And allow owners to admit that it is simply business. It just cheapens the entire sport when the sanctioning body forces team owners to put on a facade. It is as though NHRA thinks we are too stupid to see what is going on. Even the casual fan is not that stupid.

 

[nwspeedshots]

“it was the best dive since the Harley's at Pomona”

Looked like a poorly orchestrated, overly obvious dive to me. A mutual pedal-fest, with Hight pulling ahead in the top fifty feet would have been a “great” one… --M--

 

[Nick Name]

If the consensus seems to be that Force took the dive because of pressure from his sponsors, how about Bobby getting interviews with the Ford, Castrol, and AAA guys that handle the Force deal and see if they deny it, or if not, give their justification for it.

 

[None]

Here's a nice clip with a Bill Stephens intro....

...looks like "the same old same old" to me.....enjoy:


YouTube - John Force Whit Bazemore Tempers Flair Drag Racing anger

 

[PiPPi]

A pretty extensive 'Tube of the whole incident including the Dunn pre-race commentary can be found at YouTube - John Force a Cheater? (You Decide) U.S. Nationals 2009

Probably won't be posted all week due to NHRA copyright so view it while you can.

Regards
PiPPi
HarleyDrags.com

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

TPed can probably answer that. Seems to have been pretty good for him.

You're absolutely right, Brent. And he should be just as ashamed of that championship as Hight should be if he wins this one. All of this "big business" bullsh!t has taken a moral chunk out of this and all forms of motorsports.

Sean D

 

[mastertone]

Take that t-ped!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Ashley kicked his A$$

haHAHHAHAHAHHA GO AHSLEY & TEAM FORCE!

 

[Speed1288]

It got us a pretty decent spot on sportscenter so it isnt all that bad in my opinion lol