The 4 wide petition???? (2 Viewers)

[Rollout96]

According to the article:

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And what if the NHRA tells Smith, based on the PRO vote, it won't race four-wide next year at zMax?

"I don't know what I will do, quite honestly," Smith said. "What is the IHRA doing that weekend?"
============

OUCH!!!! This will be pretty interesting.

 

[Treeshaker]

wj just wants what's best for his ability to continue
drag racing at this country's best venues
(no problem with wj's eyesight; sees forest thru trees very clearly)

victor and jeg - see the big jegs signs all around zmax?

the petition, especially if leaked to press, seems extremely careless.
wondering if everyone that voted 'no' knew how this would all play out?
or were they told this petition would be given to the Smith's in confidence?
astonishing turn of events to say the least.

V. Hartman - you have been and continue to be positive about this event,
yet your daughter and allen hartley both voted no
???

At the time they signed the petition, we had made two qualifying runs and there were problems with other drivers on each of them. The first run Rhonda got hung out as another driver got timed out staging and we only ran a 3.98 et. The second run was when the Greek rolled through the staging beams looking for his blue light to come on (it doesn't, the blue lights are for the other lanes) and Rhonda, like the other two cars, struck the tires at the hit after waiting a long time to stage.

I just talked to Allen, and he said he signed it as he did because most others had, and as an unsponsored car, he felt it would cost him more parts in attrition than at the two lane events.

Rhonda saw her team owner and most others sign no, so as a part timer she just went along with the trend and because of the first two qualifying runs.

You must remember that they are both individuals that can and do think on their own to form their own opinions. I have expressed my opinion at the conclusion of the event (a time when I thought it would be appropriate to ask the owners and drivers) after I was able to see if most drivers and teams could adapt to the program. And most did.

Watching drag racing on TV is like watching I Love Lucy reruns. First, they are tape delayed and come on at different times each week. Second, we already know the outcome from other sources (computers). And each show seems to be the same, with the same cars shown, the same interviews with the same people over and over. ESPN changed the camera angles several years ago to exclude the sponsors so that they could boost "in car camera sales" and several sponsors have been on NHRA about that for a while before this event.

I agree with Bruton Smith on his attitude that drag racing needs something to create some excitment to boost both the live gate and the TV audience. After the 4 wide event, I looked back and feel that it has real potential to do this by appealing to a younger and non traditional crowd, and also by becoming a live TV event that has a regular time slot. There are probably other ideas and thoughts that will help bring drag racing into the main stream, and I am in favor of trying them and giving them a chance to work out the bugs.


I also feel the need to make the cars simpler so that less crew members are needed to run one, and that some venues should be 1/4 mile in length while others are at 1,000 feet. I feel more teams and personalities should be included in interviews, rivalries and some non PC actions should be allowed, and a little controversy every now and then, even if it is with the sanctioning body and it's rules.

I can disagree with the views of others and still hold them in high esteem. I don't like hypocricy or staging of events to slant the outcome to personal opinions.

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

BIG Mistake is quite the understatement.

Bruton Smith elevates the sport with with undeniably the finest venues the sport has ever seen, investing untold millions of his OWN money (not just a whiny opinion) and attempts to help the sport grow.

I could just imagine Mr. Smith, pulling the rug out, and offering 2-3 times what the pros get now for a win (and treating sportsmen like they actually exist), and either Switching Vegas, Sonoma, Bristol, chicago, and Charlotte, to IHRA, or presenting a package to NASCAR for consideration, who actually understand how to market a sport.

Annnnnnnd, BTW, if it was SO unsafe...........why consider doing it again as a non points deal

Very interesting proposition there sir. But I don't think we'll have to worry about it, cause I can't see nhra giving in to this hollow threat .

 

[Professional Fan]

I found it interesting that WJ voted Yes and Kurt voted No.

 

[mick]

.........ESPN changed the camera angles several years ago to exclude the sponsors so that they could boost "in car camera sales" and several sponsors have been on NHRA about that for a while before this event.........

now if nothing else - i've learned something from this thread - thanks virgil.

 

[d'kid]

Mister Smith is thinking about the Wrong HRA... Use the one with the "A", not "I". Then at the END of the Season, A one race deal, top eight in the "A" League and top eight in the "N" League for the "World Champion", at an "A" or "N" track, alternating years...

d'kid

 

[Rexfiles]

T-Rex I will dedicate all my Beer drinking this weekend to you!

JEEEEEEZ!!!!!!!!!!

I was hopin' ya'd save SOME brain cells for monday

REX

 

[Rexfiles]

BIG Mistake is quite the understatement.

Bruton Smith elevates the sport with with undeniably the finest venues the sport has ever seen, investing untold millions of his OWN money (not just a whiny opinion) and attempts to help the sport grow.

I could just imagine Mr. Smith, pulling the rug out, and offering 2-3 times what the pros get now for a win (and treating sportsmen like they actually exist), and either Switching Vegas, Sonoma, Bristol, chicago, and Charlotte, to IHRA, or presenting a package to NASCAR for consideration, who actually understand how to market a sport.

Annnnnnnd, BTW, if it was SO unsafe...........why consider doing it again as a non points deal/QUOTE]

Very interesting proposition there sir. But I don't think we'll have to worry about it, cause I can't see nhra giving in to this hollow threat .

It may be "hollow", but Mr Smith does have a memory, and in this case, every right to feel slighted.

He builds the finest dragstrips (for the most part), in the land, offers facilities, i.e. grandstands, pits, racing surfaces, access and egress second to none, and the people who say they thought the idea was "great", "fun", "had a blast", go right ahead and pull a judas deal on the guy.

smile to his face, shake his hand, and stab the back.

Tell you what, if'nI was a near billionaire, I just might remember this, and find someone else to play in my yard I could trust, apology or no apology.

Sorry, (rhetorical here Paul), I, and I feel that you, still think that PRO, made a potentially costly, bad move.

I go to no where NEAR as many national events as I used to, mainly because the shows have become a sanitized, corporized (not a word, but WTF, it rymes ), lawyerized, "For your protection" Disneyland.

Drag Racings version of the "New", family theme park, Las Vegas vs. the old, Yer payz yer money and ya' takes yer chance, anything goes, old Vegas. Guess which one was more FUN!!!

In the eighties, 16 nitro funnys would be booked in to a DIVISIONAL event, I remember it at Commerce, and E-Town, for example.

maybe Bruton CAN save the sport.

If nobody is WILLING to TRY, how does one know something will not work.

some here remind me of those of yore, who were enlightened enough to utter the phrases, "man will never fly"...........and, "the horseless carriage will NEVER be practical".

REX

 

[jackass]

Some of you guys think that the great ideas for promoting NASCAR races at Brutons tracks came from Bruton.. they didn't.. most came from Humpy Wheeler or track managers that worked under him at some point and learned from Humpy... Humpy is long gone becasue he told Bruton the drag strip at Concord was a bad idea....( thats not rumor that been reported in some of Humpys interviews after he was fired)


Back in the 90's Bruton went head to head with NASCAR/Frances using his tracks as leverage to get his way, and tossed out starting his own series... when he found out none of the teams would follow him he finialy gave up....Soon after NASCAR went huge mainstreme under its own promotional work.


IMO, i see history repeating itself here with Bruton, NHRA and its teams.


Billy

 

[PJ]

I am shocked to see WJ as one of the three who voted for yes.

me too

 

[PJ]

Between the articles and some comments I just don't get some people.

Just becuase Smith owns several tracks does that mean that any idea he has is golden and must be followed??

Does there have to be a list of reasons why pro doesn't like it? Between them, the various message boards and other media it seems pretty simple, most people didn't like it.

Just because we would like to see new ideas in the sport it doesn't mean that any idea is therefore great.


Just for a for fun goof around exhibition I liked it in person. I could live with it as an all star race but wouldn't bother watching it on TV, for points it stunk.

 

[The Swegian]

Between the articles and some comments I just don't get some people.

Just becuase Smith owns several tracks does that mean that any idea he has is golden and must be followed??

Does there have to be a list of reasons why pro doesn't like it? Between them, the various message boards and other media it seems pretty simple, most people didn't like it.

Just because we would like to see new ideas in the sport it doesn't mean that any idea is therefore great.


Just for a for fun goof around exhibition I liked it in person. I could live with it as an all star race but wouldn't bother watching it on TV, for points it stunk.

PJ, my sentiments exactly.

One other thought I had that nobody mentioned, and this is probably meaningless or maybe just a matter of semantics, but I didn't read that "petition" as though it were a petition. To me, it looked a lot more like a poll, to which 60 respondents said "no, they didn't want to race 4-wide for points" and 3 said they would. With those results, PRO took a stand and stated they would not race in that format for points.

 

[Rexfiles]

Between the articles and some comments I just don't get some people.

Just becuase Smith owns several tracks does that mean that any idea he has is golden and must be followed??

Simple, invest your own money, build your own track, and then let someone else dictate how you will run it. I own my own business, have for 27 years. successfully. I take SUGGESTIONS. which I consider, and CHOOSE to act or not act on IF I WISH. I will succeed or fail on my own. bruton has earned that right. BTW, Who inferred he had to be "followed" (your words) My thought is it's his playground, he can run it the way he wants. If Pro won't go back? Fine.

Does there have to be a list of reasons why pro doesn't like it? Between them, the various message boards and other media it seems pretty simple, most people didn't like it.

I spoke to people that went there that thoroughly enjoyed it, bad weather and all. Of course, they don't vote on online polls, so they don't count, right?

Just because we would like to see new ideas in the sport it doesn't mean that any idea is therefore great.

so lets just not try it, "therefore", we can be absolutely positive it'll never work. great thinkin'

Just for a for fun goof around exhibition I liked it in person. I could live with it as an all star race but wouldn't bother watching it on TV, for points it stunk.

I can live with it either way, but the way PRO acted, "stunk".

REX

 

[Rexfiles]

Some of you guys think that the great ideas for promoting NASCAR races at Brutons tracks came from Bruton.. they didn't.. most came from Humpy Wheeler or track managers that worked under him at some point and learned from Humpy... Humpy is long gone becasue he told Bruton the drag strip at Concord was a bad idea....( thats not rumor that been reported in some of Humpys interviews after he was fired)

Yeah, of course it's not rumor, just one side of the story............
BTW, Humpy was an employee, not the boss. As with myself, we employ people that agree with our business 'mission'. once their is significant disagreement, the boss has the last say, may it be right, or wrong.

Back in the 90's Bruton went head to head with NASCAR/Frances using his tracks as leverage to get his way, and tossed out starting his own series... when he found out none of the teams would follow him he finialy gave up....Soon after NASCAR went huge mainstreme under its own promotional work.

I'll take your word for it, but if true, Bruton has/had the right to be wrong.

IMO, i see history repeating itself here with Bruton, NHRA and its teams.

So, the NHRA is on par with NASCAR


the first major live network broadcast was at Daytona in 1979. So when was the first major live network broadcast of a NHRA race?

How much does ESPN2 pay the NHRA to broadcast it's tape delayed events???

sorry, the NHRA can't carry NASCARS lunchpail. Dale jr probably makes more in a year than most NHRA pros have made in their careers.

"Build it, They WILL Come", as long as you, "SHOW THEM THE MONEY!!!!


REX

 

[PJ]

Between the articles and some comments I just don't get some people.



Simple, invest your own money, build your own track, and then let someone else dictate how you will run it. I own my own business, have for 27 years. successfully. I take SUGGESTIONS. which I consider, and CHOOSE to act or not act on IF I WISH. I will succeed or fail on my own. bruton has earned that right. BTW, Who inferred he had to be "followed" (your words) My thought is it's his playground, he can run it the way he wants. If Pro won't go back? Fine.



I spoke to people that went there that thoroughly enjoyed it, bad weather and all. Of course, they don't vote on online polls, so they don't count, right?



so lets just not try it, "therefore", we can be absolutely positive it'll never work. great thinkin'




I can live with it either way, but the way PRO acted, "stunk".

REX

But because you own your business doesn't mean you get to dictate what other businesses do. All of the owners/drivers are business owners as well as nhra as well.

Now he can run it the way he wants to however when he joins with NHRA for their event then they are partners at best.

Now in order to appease Smith there seems to be an acceptence to hold an allstar/exhibiton event. He still gets to have the race and the drivers have more of a choice if they show or not

 

[Al smith]

Bruton threatening to go NITROJAM? There arent enough laughing dogs.

What difference does it make if Bruton Smith commandeth that they race four wide for points or not? To the uninitiated Circus going teen fans, they wont be counting points as they try to keep up with who won anyway. They will just be saying WOW DID YOU SEE THAT!!? To the "fans" sitting beside them. Soon as they leave the gate they will forget all the drivers names cept for JOHN FORCE JOHN FORCE JOHN FORCE!!. Hey maybe "businessman Bruton" can make the crews jam themselves into a single clown car to chase down the track to retrieve the cars? That would entertaining, wont it? Can someone tell me how Bruton became NHRA without even buying it when the opportunity arose a few years ago? So all you gotta do is pour stupid money into a handful of racetracks, Get a sanction, then threaten to have "NITROJAM" Take over the sanction when the racers don't agree that 4 wide was a good idea?

 

[Paul]

Wow, I can't believe what a mess this has become.

When I first heard that they were going to run 4 wide in a points race, being an old fart my initial reaction was negative. But I could see that it had the potential of possibly generating some new excitement in the sport so I convinced myself to keep an open mind about it.

Then as the race approached I became hopeful that maybe my initial reaction was dead wrong and the 4 wide racing would be really exciting and interesting and would really push drag racing forward.

But even ignoring my own reaction after watching and just based on other peoples reactions, both watching on TV and at the race, by any reasonable measure I think you have to come to the conclusion that the experiment was a clear failure. Its too confusing, on TV the camera angles have to be pulled back too far, you lose the focus on interesting one on one matchups, the ladders are a mess to look at and understand and the majority of fans appeared not to like it.

In addition it appears that a majority of the racers and team owners didn't like it either.

So it was an interesting thing to try but unfortunately, like a lot of new and different things you try, probably not worth pursuing, and I think the reaction was so negative that tweaking it is not going to save this one.

This sucks because one of the few people actively getting behind the NHRA with his checkbook had a strong personal interest in seeing 4 wide racing succeed as it was "his baby".

What really sucks is what happened next.

This was a very delicate situation, requiring a management team with a lot of tact, experience and people skills to get a key backer finessed into understanding and then accepting that "his baby" was not going to survive.

This was not going to be an easy task, but it wasn't an impossible one. Likely some concessions would have been needed to be made, for example commitments to do featured All-Star races in the 4 wide format.

Candidly, the team currently running the NHRA just doesn't have these skills. They should have sensed the unhappiness by the racers and had some meetings with them that race weekend, explaining to them the delicacy of the situation and committing to fix the problem, but also buying some time to have some careful discussions with Bruton Smith to massage him into accepting this failure.

But the NHRA management apparently doesn't even communicate with the racers closely enough to realize when they have some real major trouble brewing. Either they were totally unaware of the unhappiness or knew about it and blew it off but in either case it was a major blunder. Allowing the racers to send the "were not going to race 4 wide" letter to Bruton Smith was a major mistake.

It was an embarassment to Mr. Smith and also an major embarassment to the NHRA itself as it makes it clear that they are totally out of touch with their most important assets, the race teams.

I don't think sending the letter at this point was a smart thing for PRO to do, but I can't blame them as much for it, they're not the ones that are supposed to have the organzational brains, that's what the NHRA management is supposed to do, and they should have seen this trouble brewing and headed it off with some candid discussions with the race teams.

But I guess they were hanging out in the corporate suites, totally missed seeing this time bomb build up pressure, and once again they've shown that they just don't have the skills and capabilities to run this kind of organization.

As I've written in the past in this forum, in a "real" company, these repeated failures and long history of poor performance would have forced some changes in this management team, as real companies have checks and balances in place that force management changes when a company consistently underperforms.

However, the NHRA has most people snowed into believing that because of the special non-profit structure of the company that any change of the management team can only be enforced by the management team itself. I strongly don't believe that this is the case and that if the members banded together and exercised their defined legal rights as members of the NHRA that the NHRA could be forced to restructure its management team. It wouldn't be easy but I do beleive that it is possible.

Until that happens I think this current management team is going to just keep riding this organization right into the ground.

 

[cantdrive55]

I don't understand why so many are down on Bruton for this, did he implement how the event was going to be run? Or, is that NHRA's responsibility? Did Bruton envision the blue staging lights? Or, was that NHRA's bright idea? Did Bruton decide there would be 2 winners from each quad? Or, did the brain trusts in Glendora come up with that one? When Bruton announced his intentions of building a 4 lane dragstrip did NHRA say no like they did when Bruton wanted 4 lanes in Vegas? It was my understanding that when a racing series comes to town, that sanctioning body runs the show, not the track owner. IMO, the owners and drivers should've spoke up long before the event and made their concerns known. Instead they stayed quiet and waited until the point of no return before making their true feelings public. What's worse is they spent all the time hyping and promoting the event with nothing but positive words and good vibes, only to take a private poll behind Bruton's back and subsequently make those votes public and tell the world they didn't like the event. IMO, PRO is pointing the finger at the wrong person.

As for PRO's list of reasons is concerned, I feel that the "WWE Circus" complaint is easily the biggest crock. Are you really going to tell me that giving 2 guys and a gecko a mic and a t-shirt canon to entertain fans during down time isn't circus like atmosphere? Oh I can't forget about the basketball deal, cause lord knows throwing a basketball into a tractor tire for a t-shirt isn't P.T. Barnum at all. And the whole WWE driver intro thing sunday morning isn't circus like either? What about the 25 ft rock wall? I suppose that's been around since the Snake's Army deal. I understand why all of these things are done. I grew up going to NTR, and I remember being bored to death literally baking in the sun waiting for the track crew to clean up an oil down. But, I find it hilarious that PRO cited a circus like atmosphere as a reason for not wanting another 4 wide race. To be honest, the only differences I witnessed on friday was an extra pair of cars that went down the track and the extra time it took to line everyone up. Other than that, it was the same old routine. Nitro cars run, everyone to the grandstands. Nitro cars done, everyone to John Force's pit.

 

[Rexfiles]

But because you own your business doesn't mean you get to dictate what other businesses do. All of the owners/drivers are business owners as well as nhra as well.

Oh yes, absolutely, yes you do. As Mike has stated, yes, they are independent businesses, however, they are subcontractors. I subcontract. I agree, to follow what the customer, and the General contractor, want. We can discuss, and amend, or delete, as the job moves along. Mutually. If I do not wish to follow what the customer, and/or what the general contractor stipulates, in a mutual fashion. I know where the door is. Ultimately, the one paying the money, is the Boss. And I did not see where Bruton dictated anything in his interview to ESPN. He said that he basically "would have no part of this", and would "pull our horns out of the NHRA". Also inferred he would try to figure out an alternative. I can look up "dictate", in my funk'n'wagnals, but I don't see that description fitting what he said.

Now he can run it the way he wants to however when he joins with NHRA for their event then they are partners at best.

No, he is the track owner, NHRA is the sub, to be simple about it. Bruton Smith is a businessman, who would like to use his venue the way he wants, and if there is not mutual agreement as how the property is to be used, then he can opt out of the agreement. NHRA is a traveling show. I agree with you, he CAN run it the way he wants to. It's his 'house'.

Now in order to appease Smith there seems to be an acceptence to hold an allstar/exhibiton event. He still gets to have the race and the drivers have more of a choice if they show or not

Yeahhhhhhhh............but I thought it was "unsafe", a "Circus", you could not see the Sponsors, "confusing", etc, etc. Why do it at all. Racers race, and at the Showdown in '99, The racers were still out for blood. I was there, and the teams were having fun, but still taking it deadly serious. Nothing would change. Except the "confusion" as the racers figured it out, and the sponsor recognition deal is a easy fix.

REX

 

[Rexfiles]

Wow, I can't believe what a mess this has become.

When I first heard that they were going to run 4 wide in a points race, being an old fart my initial reaction was negative. But I could see that it had the potential of possibly generating some new excitement in the sport so I convinced myself to keep an open mind about it.

Then as the race approached I became hopeful that maybe my initial reaction was dead wrong and the 4 wide racing would be really exciting and interesting and would really push drag racing forward.

But even ignoring my own reaction after watching and just based on other peoples reactions, both watching on TV and at the race, by any reasonable measure I think you have to come to the conclusion that the experiment was a clear failure. Its too confusing, on TV the camera angles have to be pulled back too far, you lose the focus on interesting one on one matchups, the ladders are a mess to look at and understand and the majority of fans appeared not to like it.

In addition it appears that a majority of the racers and team owners didn't like it either.

So it was an interesting thing to try but unfortunately, like a lot of new and different things you try, probably not worth pursuing, and I think the reaction was so negative that tweaking it is not going to save this one.

This sucks because one of the few people actively getting behind the NHRA with his checkbook had a strong personal interest in seeing 4 wide racing succeed as it was "his baby".

What really sucks is what happened next.

This was a very delicate situation, requiring a management team with a lot of tact, experience and people skills to get a key backer finessed into understanding and then accepting that "his baby" was not going to survive.

This was not going to be an easy task, but it wasn't an impossible one. Likely some concessions would have been needed to be made, for example commitments to do featured All-Star races in the 4 wide format.

Candidly, the team currently running the NHRA just doesn't have these skills. They should have sensed the unhappiness by the racers and had some meetings with them that race weekend, explaining to them the delicacy of the situation and committing to fix the problem, but also buying some time to have some careful discussions with Bruton Smith to massage him into accepting this failure.

But the NHRA management apparently doesn't even communicate with the racers closely enough to realize when they have some real major trouble brewing. Either they were totally unaware of the unhappiness or knew about it and blew it off but in either case it was a major blunder. Allowing the racers to send the "were not going to race 4 wide" letter to Bruton Smith was a major mistake.

It was an embarassment to Mr. Smith and also an major embarassment to the NHRA itself as it makes it clear that they are totally out of touch with their most important assets, the race teams.

I don't think sending the letter at this point was a smart thing for PRO to do, but I can't blame them as much for it, they're not the ones that are supposed to have the organzational brains, that's what the NHRA management is supposed to do, and they should have seen this trouble brewing and headed it off with some candid discussions with the race teams.

But I guess they were hanging out in the corporate suites, totally missed seeing this time bomb build up pressure, and once again they've shown that they just don't have the skills and capabilities to run this kind of organization.

As I've written in the past in this forum, in a "real" company, these repeated failures and long history of poor performance would have forced some changes in this management team, as real companies have checks and balances in place that force management changes when a company consistently underperforms.

However, the NHRA has most people snowed into believing that because of the special non-profit structure of the company that any change of the management team can only be enforced by the management team itself. I strongly don't believe that this is the case and that if the members banded together and exercised their defined legal rights as members of the NHRA that the NHRA could be forced to restructure its management team. It wouldn't be easy but I do beleive that it is possible.

Until that happens I think this current management team is going to just keep riding this organization right into the ground.

You make many, many good points Paul, except PRO is an organization, headed up and staffed by independent businessman who are extremely intelligent, and have exceptional managerial skills, for the most part.

They are not "babes in the woods", is my point.

I would find it hard to swallow, that not one of the owners, or NHRA, knew what was happening when those adjoining 2 lanes were being poured. In the very beginning, I figured it was for 4 lane racing.

And also, no, not every business would restructure as it was being run into the ground by greed and incompetency, look at the Auto and banking industries, for example.

Incompetence, is a human, and global, condition.

I totally agree with you however, that tact was not used here at all. If, The racers would be opposed, from day one, the NHRA, and Bruton should have been notified in no uncertain terms, If the NHRA knew, then it was their responsibility to notify Bruton. And, lastly, if Mr Smith knew this going in, that the racers were strongly opposed, then him going full steam with this was also quite unwise. It's possible the blame could fall on everyone.

REX