New NHRA Nitro 'Spec' Engine for Top Fuel and Funny Cars

[Bill]

Excellent post, Virgil; thanks for all that good information! Your experience, firsthand, with this stuff gives you a better perspective than those of us who have only watched (rather than have "lived it.")

I did wonder about one of the items, though. To wit:

When I suggested a few weeks back, that NHRA needed to rescind the 3.2:1 final drive ratio rule in the interest of lowering the rpms necessary to go the speeds that Fuel cars are achieving, your response was, (I believe) that since switching over to the larger ring gear, they had only made 3.2:1 gearsets, and to tool up for 3.00:1, or 2.80:1 sets would be prohibitively expensive.

Today, though, you said, "3.50 rear gear - $1,200.00 I am guessing as I haven't bought a rear gear in a while."

That doesn't sound prohibitively expensive to me, given the parts it could save.

What do you think?

Bill

 

[Treeshaker]

To do a "one off" prototype gear will cost much more than the $1200.00. To set up tooling, produce blanks and the actual production of a different gear ratio requires a minimum run of parts, which again is much more. But, if it is the mandated gear, then the minimums will be covered, and the cost of tooling is amortized over the cost of the run.

So if the minimum run is 250 sets to get the sales price to $1,200.00, someone has to invest approximately $210,000.00 so that they can make a 30% profit on $300,000.00 of gross sales.

Sometimes, and I am not saying it is happening now by NHRA, rule changes or mandated products/systems by a sanctioning body are done to stimulate business for a particular company or segment of the manufacturing industry. This happens in all forms of sanctioned activities, not just drag racing, or auto racing in general.

 

[Bill]

Thanks for that explanation, Virgil.

It makes a lot more sense, now.

Bill

 

[Bill]

Virgil said: "Sometimes, and I am not saying it is happening now by NHRA, rule changes or mandated products/systems by a sanctioning body are done to stimulate business for a particular company or segment of the manufacturing industry."
I believe that to be 100-percent correct, and thanks for pointing that out.

However, it begs the question, "What would motivate NHRA, in particular, to make such a move "to stimulate business for a particular company or segment of the manufacturing industry."

This is not written to put anybody (particularly, not Virgil, because I believe he just told the truth) on the hot seat; I'm just interested in HOW (and, why) such an action could come about.

Anybody got any ideas????


Bill

 

[clwill]

I'm just interested in HOW (and, why) such an action could come about.

Anybody got any ideas????

Imagine, if you will, a manufacturer who makes some parts that are used only by pro racers: say maybe some rear ends, or some such part that doesn't wear out on every pass. But is really only used by pro fuel race teams and there are maybe only one or two manufacturers. They have a total market of, what, maybe 50 or 100? If NHRA changes the rules, they get business to keep them alive. If not, they get a couple of orders a year. But having them around keeps fuel racing alive.

I think that's what Virgil is talking about...

 

[Bill]

Thanks. That makes sense to me.

But, sometimes it doesn't. For example: NASCAR drivers spend a LOT of their seat time having centrifugal force acting on their bodies, pulling HARD against the seat belts, with the belts helping hold the drivers in place.

Those belts have to be replaced every five years, I am told.

NHRA Stock Eliminator drivers' seat belts are not really stressed until there's an accident, and they are called upon to hold the driver in place; otherwise, gravity does a nice job of it.

NHRA requires those belts to be replaced every TWO years.

What's wrong with this picture???

Bill

 

["Chuck"]

If they get a full pull in I'm guessing 5.00 @ 290 in a FC.

Im gunna throw my two cents in the pool and say low 5's, 280-290 mph.

 

[Leebone]

I'd much rather keep the fuel cars the way they are, "full tilt boogie" and race to 1000 feet, rather than watering them down to accomodate the much coveted and hallowed 1320. JMHO

Of course, I'm one of those guys, as Virgil referred to, that rushes to the pro pits so I can smell the nitro and get a full sensory overload when they blip the throttles. So what do I know???

 

[clwill]

NHRA requires those belts to be replaced every TWO years.

What's wrong with this picture???

Insurance company? Maybe some prior incident where a 3-year old belt failed? Who knows?

 

[kingcobrafan]

I'd much rather keep the fuel cars the way they are, "full tilt boogie" and race to 1000 feet, rather than watering them down to accomodate the much coveted and hallowed 1320. JMHO

Of course, I'm one of those guys, as Virgil referred to, that rushes to the pro pits so I can smell the nitro and get a full sensory overload when they blip the throttles. So what do I know???

And I say, assuming that everyone in both Top Fuel and Funny Car is running the automatic shutoff devices, and that all tracks have beefed up their shutdown areas/end of the tracks, leave the cars as they are and run the full quarter mile. If certain tracks (Pomona, E-town) are seen as too short for 1320 racing, then run those tracks at 1000 feet, similar to what NASCAR does with their restrictor plate races.

 

[Super Mod]

"Although the official position is that parts can’t be obtained for the engine, the Agent hears that the real reason is a direct protest to the NHRA from several major team owners concerning the enormous cost (upwards of $2,000,000 according to one owner) a new spec engine would mean for their teams. The Agent would not be surprised if that whole deal just went silent. [5/1/2009]"

Sensationalism at it's best (or worst). Let's look at the costs to change a car over:

1. Remove one mag, coil and box - a savings.

2. Plugs for one set of spark plugs - $150.00, or just use a used plug and then it is free.

3. Gears to make fuel pump smaller - $2,000.00 if new, but most teams probably have the gears from earlier.

4. 3.50 rear gear - $1,200.00 I am guessing as I haven't bought a rear gear in a while.

5. Crankshaft - $3850.00 now, or maybe with the short stroke and 3.50 gear they will find they can get away with the forgings that many NFC cars are running with great success that cost $975.00 balanced, ready to run.

6. Longer rods - $1,120.00 set

7. Pullies to obtain 15% overdrive - $400.00

8. Remove a clutch disc and floater - Savings

9. MSD to take rev limiter out - $200.00

Did I miss something? What I have listed comes to less than $9,000.00. I know you need multiples of some items, but those are perishable items (cranks and rods) anyways.

Some teams have went to .100 tall blocks with the .100 tall head to get a longer rod in the motor now, so for less cost than that took, they can reduce the deck height by .375 and use the same rods with about the same stroke/rod length ratio. There will be savings when the blower is ran at 15% with belts and blower cases. The costs of the blowers can't go much higher for r&d than what the teams are doing presently, I wouldn't think, but I have been wrong before.

I can't see even a five car team being able to spend $500,000.00, even if they are being extravagant with a lot of testing included.

I believe that once testing starts, changes will be made and there will be less parts that need to be changed and the costs will be lower.

R & D.........PRICELESS! ....... for these times we need MASTERCARD

 

[Bobby]

bring back the 1/4 mile. The cars are too fast. said it before I'll say it again.

a 300mph funny car run should be rare. It's not necessary for a great show.

bring it on.....

 

[Bobby]

Gotta agree with you there, Christopher- most of the folks in the stands don't really having too much of a clue past "Go Fast, Be Loud"..

most people at the Fleetwood Mac concert I just went to don't understand music theory. What 's your point?