New NHRA Nitro 'Spec' Engine for Top Fuel and Funny Cars

[Bill]

Sherm,

I've seen the turbo/alky funny-bikes and you're absolutely right; the sound is subdued, but I do enjoy hearing the tires scream.... you can hear them when the engine doesn't drown them out.

I am not a huge turbocharger fan; I'm a drag racing fan, and the turbos just seemed like a means to an end in this instance. Nitro, and the escalating costs associated with running it, have hobbled our sport with financial loads that seemingly cannot be sustained, with no end in sight.

With major sponsors dropping like flies, and smart Pro racers not willing to run on their own dime, the imediate future does not look bright for T/F and F/C and it seems to me, the egregious expense created by running nitromethane is at the bottom of it all.

I was just looking for a way out... obviously, not finding one.

My own hobby car has a belt-driven supercharger... not a turbo, not that that matters.

The considerable power available from an 800 cid Sonny Leonard aluminum Hemi with either two or four turbochargers, on methanol. just seemed like an alternative that might have enough grunt to go 300, or so, in an 1,800-pound car. That looked to me like a viable alternative to the "spec" Fuel car.

Making noise wasn't a consideration... lol!

Guess I need to look at the WHOLE picture, next time...

Thanks for your comments!

Bill

 

[John Capps Sr.]

You guys kill me. This is a TEST! Nothing has been mandated, they are TESTING a combination. If I was a betting man I would wager that after this there will be, are you ready......MORE TESTS!

Does it not make sense that if the engine is smaller, it will make less power and need more gear? NHRA is buying the parts, and paying the expenses and gathering data while getting input from those in the know. and you guys are whining about it. Please somebody tell me what is wrong with this TEST!

Alan

P.S. Joe, I will ask you the same thing I have ask others, do you think calling Graham names adds to your credibility? Or that it makes you look smarter?

Alan, you sure know how to take the fun out of a subject by throwing in those FACTs 'n things... Hee Hee...

 

[Nunz]

I am glad to see the NHRA taking proactive steps to come up with what is in essence, "the fuel car of tomorrow". Let's face it, the "Pro" aspect of drag racing is really a small part of the overall sport, yet this is the aspect that really drives the "show", as far as spectators and television. In my mind, to make sure that the future of the sport can include fuel cars, something like what is being looked at now needs to be done. Like Virgil says, most spectators come for the assault on their senses. What about the huge number of people out there that know nothing about our sport? Give a newbie a chance to see a 300mph race with deafening sound and smoke and fire, and there's a strong chance they'll be back. Those of us that have been around, yeah we may look at the cars and think about how detuned they are compared to the 330mph cars of "yesterday", but, we have to think about the future. I remember beeing a little kid, we were towing my dad's altered back to the pits at a points meet at Indy in 1970. Shoe is on the starting line with another funny car, and we stopped on the return road to watch. I'll never forget how they shook the ground and took my breath way. And I believe the run was in the 7.0s. Not even a good A/ED pass anymore. My point is, I think taking a step back will allow the sport to take a few forward, so I am excited to think about how this can impact the future of fuel racing. And to Bill, you have a lot of cool ideas regarding different combinations that could create a very fast, reliable race car. The cool thing about this sport is that there is room for just about any combo, somewhere, even if it's in a different sanctioning body. But, whether it's a 4.40 335mph car, or a 4.90 305mph car, or a 1000ft combo, nothing can compare with the experience that a blown nitro race car gives!!

 

[Bill]

Nunzio,

Thanks for the kind words, and you're 100-percent keyrect when you say, "nothing can compare with the experience that a blown nitro race car gives!!"

I know that...

Bill

 

[vegasnitro]

Bill;

Mike Moran runs a combination not unlike you are talking about in Pro Mod ... the car either goes like stink (low 6's at over 240MPH) or he is out of the throttle by 300ft. I have personally seen the car run a lot here in Vegas, and it has been more shut off passes than full pulls. Putting 2000+ HP to the track is a challenge, no matter the means you go about doing it.

I personally would not want to be travelling in something that weighs 1800 pounds at 300 MPH ... I am not convinced there would be enough structural rigidity in the chassis to protect the driver should there be contact with the wall or another vehicle. Car manufacturers could build cars that weigh that little for the street, but they could not pass federal crash tests at 40 MPH.

 

[Bill]

Chris Cook said:
>>>"Putting 2000+ HP to the track is a challenge, no matter the means you go about doing it."

I'd suggest going about doing it like the current T/F cars put 8,000+HP to the track, but with less of everything; less wing, less tire and less weight. If Alan Johnson can hook up 8,000 HP, 3,000 should be a piece of cake, by comparison, wouln't you think?



>>>"I personally would not want to be travelling in something that weighs 1800 pounds at 300 MPH."

Neither would I... but, I'm not a digger pilot...
The differential in weight between the current T/F cars (well, it was 2,250 in 2008; I can't put my hands on the 2009 rulebook right now) which have gone 335 mph, and the alcohol car, which would be shorter and slower ((300 instead of 335,) might mean that the tubing could be relatively as strong; the shorter a straw is, the more resistance to flex it has. Engine weight would probably be very close to the same, I would think.

I've never seen Mike Moran's car run (just read about it), but I would think that that much power in a short-wheelbase (relatively, compared with a dragster) doorslammer might be prone to experiencing a lot of handling problems that wouldn't exist in a dragster due to length considerations. Dragsters have a lot more polar inertia than short cars that have higher centers of gravity. In short, I think he has had a lot more problems getting that motor down the track that he would have with that engine in a dragster chassis, so you can't really make a comparison with what his experience has been, to the same engine mounted in a 270-inch wheelbase rail.

That's just my opinion though; the truth may be something entirely different.... all I can do is offer a semi-educated guess.

Thanks much for your post; It was very interesting!!!


Bill

 

[Gerda Joon]

First of all I have to tell you that I didn't read all the 13 pages (!) on this thread so it is possible that somebody else came up with this idea. Overhere in Europe we still run 1/4 mile. Except for Sweden because it is really really short track. The quickest Top Fuel Dragster run is a 4.645. And that has only been run twice. If a TF car goes in the 4.7 seconds it is already an amazing run. And the crews are making high fives and low fives and are jumping up and down. And the crowed goes wild. How come that Wayne Dupuy who tunes Urs Erbacher in Las Vegas to a storming 4.59 run can't do it in Europe? The difference between Europe and the US are the tracks and not the race cars. We got David Baca his Top Fuel Dragster that run 4.49 seconds at Indy. So the specs are the same as you guys are running. But we are still running on asphalt tracks. Did nobody see that ever since the NHRA started with an other type of traction compount the tuners could put more hp on the race track. I think it was somewhere last year that at one race everybody had troubles getting the cars down the track because there was to much alcohol used in the traction compound and the track did not hold the horse power. So there is your answer. Change the track preparations. It doesn't cost the teams or the NHRA a lot of money and we could go back to 1/4 mile racing. The tuners can make the difference and safety is not in danger.

 

[Nitrohaulic]

I'd bet Virgil is right about fans enjoying a nitro warmup more than watching the other classes going down the track. I think "attack on the senses" is one of the best ways of wording it I've ever heard, too. I know that what I feel and hear is probably 90% of what I love about the sport.

I was more interested in the nitro classes when the best funny cars were running low 5s and the bottom of the field could be anywhere from 5.22 (Creasy!) to ???

 

[Fuel FC Fan]

I'd bet Virgil is right about fans enjoying a nitro warmup more than watching the other classes going down the track. I think "attack on the senses" is one of the best ways of wording it I've ever heard, too. I know that what I feel and hear is probably 90% of what I love about the sport.

I was more interested in the nitro classes when the best funny cars were running low 5s and the bottom of the field could be anywhere from 5.22 (Creasy!) to ???

Yep....the opportunity to stand that close to any fuel car warming up is awesome. I think people just want to come as close as they possibly can to "feel" and hear that h.p. and are willing to put aside everything else to stand "right there" to experience it.... ..then chase down the next warm up a few pits over. At the end of the day......It's what I believe a lot of people remember most at the races when they go home...and keep coming back for.

 

[Toejam]

First of all I have to tell you that I didn't read all the 13 pages (!) on this thread so it is possible that somebody else came up with this idea. Overhere in Europe we still run 1/4 mile. Except for Sweden because it is really really short track. The quickest Top Fuel Dragster run is a 4.645. And that has only been run twice. If a TF car goes in the 4.7 seconds it is already an amazing run. And the crews are making high fives and low fives and are jumping up and down. And the crowed goes wild. How come that Wayne Dupuy who tunes Urs Erbacher in Las Vegas to a storming 4.59 run can't do it in Europe? The difference between Europe and the US are the tracks and not the race cars. We got David Baca his Top Fuel Dragster that run 4.49 seconds at Indy. So the specs are the same as you guys are running. But we are still running on asphalt tracks. Did nobody see that ever since the NHRA started with an other type of traction compount the tuners could put more hp on the race track. I think it was somewhere last year that at one race everybody had troubles getting the cars down the track because there was to much alcohol used in the traction compound and the track did not hold the horse power. So there is your answer. Change the track preparations. It doesn't cost the teams or the NHRA a lot of money and we could go back to 1/4 mile racing. The tuners can make the difference and safety is not in danger.

Gerda I think your right, the tracks here in the states are Prepped very well. Gary Page told me the tracks in Europe for the most part are like a gravel road, very tough to get down! I'm curious how Austin Coil and Alan Johnson would do over there running on those slick tracks week in week out?

 

[MM]

Gerda I think your right, the tracks here in the states are Prepped very well. Gary Page told me the tracks in Europe for the most part are like a gravel road, very tough to get down! I'm curious how Austin Coil and Alan Johnson would do over there running on those slick tracks week in week out?

Coil honed his skills racing on tracks like that and i bet Alan could figure it out

 

[Toejam]

Coil honed his skills racing on tracks like that and i bet Alan could figure it out

Yeah I guess your right, of course if every race was on 120+ degree tracks it would get easier if thats all you ran on.

 

[nick name]

Maybe because with Wilkerson you'll get less politics and self serving b.s.

Who died and left DSR and Team Force in charge of the nitro world?....it seems to me they might be part of the problem here, not the solution.

As far as the 3.50 gear is concerned. With reduced power, something has to help get these cars get up on the tire. Just look at the amount of tireshake runs right now.

I think Tony hit the nail on the head but also there's the fact that Tim holds an engineering degree. Seems like the perfect man for the job to me. Fairness, education, hands-on tuning experience, race wins - what more could you want? My hat's off to whoever at NHRA decided Tim should be the leader of the study.

 

[Gregg Pickens]

Pandora's box can be nailed shut at any time.

Most would rather watch the pro crews work on their cars and experience a nitro car warming up than to watch most of the classes run down the strip.

Don't lump me as a fan into that group. While I enjoy the Nitro Cars they are not the end all be all of drag racing. I maybe in the minority here but I am sure there are others like me that want to see the other classes. Lets not forget (even if NHRA and ESPN do at times) there are 4 Professional Classes at NHRA events and 2 have nothing to do with Nitro.

 

[Bill]

I've been a fan of this stuff for a long, long, time and I well remember what the Funny Cars did to the Supercharged Gas Coupes.... a little over 40 years ago.

The same thing could happen to Pro Stock if the Pro Mod cars can get their act together, sufficiently.

It may take 6 or 7 years, but it can happen.

I thnk NHRA is putting everybody to sleep who is a fan of Pro Stock with their "NO CHANGES" spec rules that strangle any kind of innovation.

You can only watch Jeggie outrun Allen Johnson by .003-sec so many times before you fall into a somnabulistic coma...

They need electronic fuel injection and bigger motors to breathe some new life into this category; it's been samo/samo for far too long, in my opinion.

Bill

 

[Nitrohelper]

..... 2 have nothing to do with Nitro....

But then again the stands do start to empty out when those non-Nitro cars come out of the lanes after the loud folks are done..

 

[Bill]

>>>"But then again the stands do start to empty out when those non-Nitro cars come out of the lanes after the loud folks are done...<

But, those are just the unfortunates who don't understand the vagaries of the myriad classes that exist that make up the great majority of the race cars...

 

[Solid Rock]

>>>"But then again the stands do start to empty out when those non-Nitro cars come out of the lanes after the loud folks are done...<

But, those are just the idiots...

If that's the case then the VAST MAJORITY of drag racing fans must be idiots.

 

[Bill]

Nope; there's a lot of people who have the grey matter to understand and appreciate the mechanical enginnering skills necessary to put a '67 Camaro into the nines, or a 500-inch, normally-aspirated 2300-pound Pro Stocker into the 200+ mph range.

I will admit that the exodus from the stands when the Fuelers are done COULD be due to the fact that the next cars up are sometimes the .90 cars, which have little spectator apppeal for anybody except the families and friends of the owner/driver because of the absurd active throttle stops and the fact that they are not ever allowed to actually OUTRUN somebody, unless you want to call getting to the finish line first within the parameters of the .90 protocol "outrunning" somebody....

But, the wheelstanding Stockers and Super Stockers definitely have their fans, along with the el-weirdo Comp combinations. But, the thing is, in order to appreciate what they're doing out there, you have to know something about it.

I used too strong a term when I said "idiots," and I apologize for that. They are simply uninformed to the point that the finer points of the racing escape them in a haze of reaction times, indexes, dial-ins and breakout losses.

You really can't blame them; T/F and F/C racing is brutally simple and appeals to the visceral... A six-year-old can appreciate it.

Sportsman racing is a little more complicated, and "fans" who are there to be THRILLED with noise, explosions, and who don't "get" Sportsman racing are likely to bolt when the Super Comp cars pull up to the line, following the Fuelers.

As the other guy said, "Don't count me among them." Or, something like that.

If all they had at the drags were Fuel cars, I'd be staying home. NHRA has managed to turn it into nothing more than a drivers' contest, and the thrill is gone...

 

[clwill]

...unless you want to call getting to the finish line first within the parameters of the .90 protocol "outrunning" somebody....

Yes, I call that outrunning someone. Getting to the finish line first within the rules. It's called winning.

Oh, how much I wish some of the .90 haters would just try it some day. It's some of the toughest racing out there. That's why so many of the pros cut their teeth there, and so many go back there for practice. Jack Beckman, Dave Connolly, the Force ladies, Hot Rod, Morgan Lucas, Shawn Langdon, etc., etc. The list is endless.

The problem with the non-fuel classes is that they aren't obvious, like the fuel classes are. If NHRA made a series of one-two minute videos explaining the Super classes, or Comp, or even Pro Stock, and ran them instead of the frigging Geico idiots, we'd all be better off. They could have videos that explain the classes, the technical limits in the various classes, how the timing system works, what track prep is all about, etc., etc. I could list 25 topics in a heartbeat.

They seem to assume that everyone who comes to an NHRA event knows what a "holeshot" is. Wonder why the fan base isn't growing? It's a complex sport and no one explains it to the newbie.