Change The Countdown To The Championship? (2 Viewers)

[PJ]

From a business standpoint I get and understand dives. We have the ones that are known. Also there are times when the drivers/owners don't have a say. The sponsors have been known to make such calls as well.

From a fan standpoint I hate them, If I want to see a predetermine event I'd go watch wrestling.

If they are going to dive, at least be honest about it. Like someone said, leave the other car in the pits(although I do get the argument that if the other cars breaks on the burnout you double hose your team)

I guess the lie/coverup ends up being worse then the actual crime.

Mike, I think the Force one was the most blantant that MOST people remember (I think Minor/Beck was the most obvious) which is why that is the one commonly sighted.

 

[mike]

My answer Mikey to that question is if I remember right Del flat out said it would go down that way...JFR cant come clean all the way back to TPed
JMO on those two situations

John couldn't come out and say anything because NHRA has a rule about being honest about diving (sort like Fight Club; the first rule about diving is you don't talk about diving )

I think most people are grown up enough to understand that sometimes you need to make a decision on what's best for your team...but complaining about "diving" is a convenient stick to beat on teams they don't like

as long as championships that are more important than winning races, teams will sacrifice a race for a championship

 

[Paul]

That's not what I asked. I'm not asking for a comparison, so I will ask the same question again. If you are so anti-diving as you claim to be, why is it the only team you condemn for their actions is JFR whenever the subject comes up?

It is the one dive that people can easily remember what happened and it involved one of the biggest teams in the sport. When you brought up the Worsham dive I had to go back and read the results to figure out what happened in that race as there wasn't huge backlash like the Force incident. The Force dive is one of the most memorable dives and history. If I see another team dive, I will also call it out for what it is, manipulation of the results.

Now that NASCAR has set a precedent, I wonder if the NHRA will rule any different if it comes up again.

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

While we're at it lets look at the other side. I'll never forget the look on Morgan Lucas face in his interview. It was several years ago, he did NOT need the points. Lucas offered to dive for his team mate. (I believe it was
Melanie Troxel). She DID need the points to have a shot at the championship.

She insisted on racing strait up. They did. Lucas won. She had no chance of the championship. Lucas knew it was bad for the team, and her. I thought he was gonna get sick he felt so bad.

 

[TF CREW]

No offense Mike Miller But I am well aware of the NHRA rule on so called dives

 

[MM]

It is the one dive that people can easily remember what happened and it involved one of the biggest teams in the sport. When you brought up the Worsham dive I had to go back and read the results to figure out what happened in that race as there wasn't huge backlash like the Force incident. The Force dive is one of the most memorable dives and history. If I see another team dive, I will also call it out for what it is, manipulation of the results.

Now that NASCAR has set a precedent, I wonder if the NHRA will rule any different if it comes up again.

So it doesn't matter if someone dives....it just matters who it is.....Got it! I should write this stuff down.

 

[Paul]

So it doesn't matter if someone dives....it just matters who it is.....Got it! I should write this stuff down.

The Force dive is the only one where the one action directly impacted who participated in the Countdown which is the main reason why everyone remembers the situation. The Worsham dive didn't impact the Championship so not everyone remembers. I hope you aren't a reading teacher because I clearly stated I am against all diving. For the purpose of conversation I bring up the one dive everyone can remember and relate to, not sure why you aren't able to comprehend that based on my previous post where it is clearly states why I use the Force example.

 

[MM]

The Force dive is the only one where the one action directly impacted who participated in the Countdown which is the main reason why everyone remembers the situation. The Worsham dive didn't impact the Championship so not everyone remembers. I hope you aren't a reading teacher because I clearly stated I am against all diving. For the purpose of conversation I bring up the one dive everyone can remember and relate to, not sure why you aren't able to comprehend that based on my previous post where it is clearly states why I use the Force example.

Nice to see we can get to hurling insults instead of keeping the conversation civil. If you are so against all diving, why did you have to go back and review something that was so blatantly obvious? And why have you never openly condemned any other team for diving when there are several examples of other teams doing it? They have all intentionally manipulated the final outcome of races. Since you have decided to degrade this to the point of name calling, I'll wash my hands of this thread. I have said my piece.

 

[Rat]

I think the countdown does what it is designed to do, drama aside it is successful. My book touched on this issue and many of the top minds in the sport made very valid arguments. Personally I have 2 ideas:

I do feel the NHRA should lock only the top 8 in and leave 9 and 10 open for 2 teams to get that all important top 10, yet be excluded from being able to challenge for the title. Like the year of the first 2007 countdown without the 2 resets.

or

Keep things the way they are and let the 11th place finisher upon season's end win a purse, say $15-20,000. I don't see any problem here because no team capable of qualifying for the countdown is going to purposely try to finish 11th when they could try and win the championship by qualifying. 11th place needs more weight.

 

[Paul]

Nice to see we can get to hurling insults instead of keeping the conversation civil. If you are so against all diving, why did you have to go back and review something that was so blatantly obvious? And why have you never openly condemned any other team for diving when there are several examples of other teams doing it? They have all intentionally manipulated the final outcome of races. Since you have decided to degrade this to the point of name calling, I'll wash my hands of this thread. I have said my piece.

Sorry, but I hate having to repeat myself after I stated why I use that example. Like I said previously about the Worsham incident, if it doesn't have an impact on the Championship it falls out of memory pretty quickly. Outside of the Force dive the only other dive I remember in recent memory is the HD team back in Pomona a number of years ago (I think it was 08).

In this particular situation where I was comparing the NASCAR situation to NHRA, the Force dive is the only one I can remember where a teams actions caused one driver to miss the playoffs and their teammate make the playoffs in the last race before the reseed. If you can think of a better comparison that everyone can quickly relate to, please elaborate. However, someone brought up that a "Force basher" was the reason why it was brought up that way, which isn't the case. Consequently, you have felt the need to bring up other dives that are not relevant to the NASCAR situation and saying that I am hypocritical (so you are the one that actually started the name calling, but I chose to ignore it) for not bringing up other dives even though they aren't relevant to this particular situation.

 

[Bullard Anderson]

Folks drag racing is a team sport now, like it or not. I'm all for multi car teams, anything that puts cars on the track. But the CD system, it invites "dives".

Nothing wrong with dives, no different than a QB taking a knee, or a pitcher throwing 4 way outside to skip this batter to face the next. It's called strategy. Like Mike, I don't care for the hypocrisy but NHRA forces that. The teams should be able to just say "pass". Let the team mate make a single.

Paul I respect you doc, you've been around. "no different than a QB taking a knee or skip this batter" No Way brother. Taking a knee only benefits the team taking the knee. The game is over, or the half. The QB taking a knee doesn't benefit anyone other than the team the QB is playing for. The pitcher going to the next batter only benefits the team the pitcher is pitching for. AND the pitcher gets another batter to still try and win the game for his team. Drag racing dives manipulate the Raceday or the points standings and "your" qb or pitcher is on the trailer. What I am saying is QB's and pitchers are trying to or have won the game by giving their best. A drag racing dive in manipulating the Raceday or points standings with a predetermined ending. There is no attempt at competition.

 

[MM]

Sorry, but I hate having to repeat myself after I stated why I use that example. Like I said previously about the Worsham incident, if it doesn't have an impact on the Championship it falls out of memory pretty quickly. Outside of the Force dive the only other dive I remember in recent memory is the HD team back in Pomona a number of years ago (I think it was 08).

In this particular situation where I was comparing the NASCAR situation to NHRA, the Force dive is the only one I can remember where a teams actions caused one driver to miss the playoffs and their teammate make the playoffs in the last race before the reseed. If you can think of a better comparison that everyone can quickly relate to, please elaborate. However, someone brought up that a "Force basher" was the reason why it was brought up that way, which isn't the case. Consequently, you have felt the need to bring up other dives that are not relevant to the NASCAR situation and saying that I am hypocritical (so you are the one that actually started the name calling, but I chose to ignore it) for not bringing up other dives even though they aren't relevant to this particular situation.

Whatever you say, Ace. I'll be taking a little break from this place. I don't need to come here, be insulted, and have my ability to adequately do my job questioned by a so-called "moderator". I have enough crap to deal in my life, I don't need to come here and add to it.

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

I think the countdown does what it is designed to do, drama aside it is successful. .

I respectfully disagree Mr. Keenan. How is it successful. Are there more fans in the stands now, then before the CD?? Are there more cars in competition?? I would say no on both points, so where's the success??

You mention "drama". Racing is about performance, not drama.
Drama is about "who done it in the library with a candle stick".

The CD is nhra's way of squeezing two seasons into one year. They give hundreds of un-earned points to some drivers, and unfairly lock drivers out of the championship before the season is over.

However they don't care how we feel, just like 1,000ft the CD is here to stay.

 

[mike]

No offense Mike Miller But I am well aware of the NHRA rule on so called dives

then you understand why Force and other current team owner's can't just do the right thing and not stage or idle down the track or something then right

 

[d'kid]

Very Easy, stop trying to copy NASCAR... Drop The DUMBDOWN...

Indy Double Points... all others same points... if someone locks it up before Indy, So What? They are the seasons best team/car...

It's sweet sixteen every race.... what the heck do you need a play off for?

d'kid

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

Very Easy, stop trying to copy NASCAR... Drop The DUMBDOWN...

Indy Double Points... all others same points... if someone locks it up before Indy, So What? They are the seasons best team/car...

It's sweet sixteen every race.... what the heck do you need a play off for?

d'kid

agree 100%. Correct on each & every point. From your keyboard to nhra's ears.

 

[TSK]

You mention "drama". Racing is about performance, not drama.
Drama is about "who done it in the library with a candle stick".

Besides, there's getting to be too much drama on this thread.

 

[.]

The countdown has nothing to do with orders to dive.

Lets take a trip back in the wayback machine. To the year 2003.

Bazemore (in a Don Shumacher owned car) trails T-Ped by 103 points going into Seattle. Scelzi (also in a Shumacher owned FC) qualified #1. Come Sunday, T-Ped loses first round, giving Bazemore a shot at picking up points.

So what happened? In the 2nd round of eliminations, when Scelzi and Bazemore are scheduled to meet up, Scelzi (who had lane choice) takes the left lane, which produced just one winner in the previous round and half. We all know what happened then, and how the outcome was scripted. Bazemore got his 20 in a "good" lane that he didn't earn.

So, 2 things. One, the countdown has done nothing to encourage or discourage team dives, and two, JFR is certainly not the only team in history to attempt to manipulate the outcome of a round in an effort to "win" a championship. But I rarely see anyone mention this race when it comes to pre-determined race outcomes.

That list includes:
Force
Shumacher
Minor
Johnson
It goes on and on.

 

[Dave]

Plus if we're talking about trying to manipulate the outcome, how about Greg Anderson last year shutting off at 1,000 foot in hopes of a low spot on the ladder and getting AJ early. There are plenty of games played. Don't think that if it was successful and Greg took out AJ early and had to run Line late that Line wouldn't get the win.

 

[PJ]

The countdown has nothing to do with orders to dive.

Lets take a trip back in the wayback machine. To the year 2003.

Bazemore (in a Don Shumacher owned car) trails T-Ped by 103 points going into Seattle. Scelzi (also in a Shumacher owned FC) qualified #1. Come Sunday, T-Ped loses first round, giving Bazemore a shot at picking up points.

So what happened? In the 2nd round of eliminations, when Scelzi and Bazemore are scheduled to meet up, Scelzi (who had lane choice) takes the left lane, which produced just one winner in the previous round and half. We all know what happened then, and how the outcome was scripted. Bazemore got his 20 in a "good" lane that he didn't earn.

So, 2 things. One, the countdown has done nothing to encourage or discourage team dives, and two, JFR is certainly not the only team in history to attempt to manipulate the outcome of a round in an effort to "win" a championship. But I rarely see anyone mention this race when it comes to pre-determined race outcomes.

That list includes:
Force
Shumacher
Minor
Johnson
It goes on and on.

True it has been around for ahwile. Although now with the C-down. There are two opportunities for the dive to be needed. One near the cut off, then at the end of the season(where it has usually been)

Plus if we're talking about trying to manipulate the outcome, how about Greg Anderson last year shutting off at 1,000 foot in hopes of a low spot on the ladder and getting AJ early. There are plenty of games played. Don't think that if it was successful and Greg took out AJ early and had to run Line late that Line wouldn't get the win.

I wouldn't call that the same as a dive. Much like the intentional walk or a ball team sitting players at the end of the season to get a more favorable post season matchup. The only was to stop AJ was to take him out and most of the early round matchups would not have a shot at it.