Beckman's New Idea For The Countdown.... (2 Viewers)

[Rajunz]

Excellent post Mr. Asher, I was just about to post that this entire thread reminded me of "every child gets a trophy, and they all get 5 strikes."

 

[Dave]

Then I don't know where Brad Littlefield gets off posting on NHRA.com that he's 5th. Either way thank you for that.

Ohh! Me me! If you read the points that dean is posting, it does NOT include the countdown reset. If you take into consideration Johnny Gray had MADE the top 10, he would have started 10th with 2000 points. What does not make sense is the fact that if he had earned 443 points, he'd ACTUALLY have 2,443 and be LEADING the points by 27. Someone somewhere has their math wrong. Dean is simply posting if you didn't use ANY reset or exclusion and just ran the season out like it should be.

 

[mike]

With all due respect, I see no "increase" in media coverage. Yes, they hype it up on the Q shows and finals show. But they are preaching to the chior. It's only us fans that watch. The CD hype does not reach any "NEW" potential fans or sponsors. I have never seen it (CD) mentioned on local, or natl. TV news or sports.

that's what I see also...people, real live people, can tell the difference between real excitement and artificial drama, and that's what NHRA's and NASCAR's "playoff" formula is: artificial drama...

that's my .02 anyway

 

[the zone]

I was just pointing out where Gray would sit (and Vandergriff as well in my earlier post). I am not sure I have an opinion one way for other. This year and a couple other years have been down to the wire which I feel makes the deal exciting. There actually was nothing worse then crowning a champion with two-five races to go which has happend on a number of occasions in the past. Maybe the 11th place bous is a good deal, or maybe one or two wild card births outside of the top ten would help the teams just outside the top ten. To finish 11th by one or two qualifying bonus points then kicking ass in the last six would really suck, cause in a scenario like that one could concievably be right at the top in the end.

Dean

 

[BF]

There actually was nothing worse then crowning a champion with two-five races to go which has happend on a number of occasions in the past.
Dean

You see, I see nothing wrong with a champion being crowned that early if said driver dominated enough to clinch. I've never missed a race because the champion has already been crowned. Most people I've talked to in the stands only go to one race a year and have no idea who's in the running for a championship or can name last year's champions. People are there for that particular race. Myself, I have quit going thanks to my adverse feelings towards the countdown and 1000' racing. Media coverage increase, I don't see it either. More topics for NHRA reporters to write about definitely...whether it's read or not is another story.

 

[Rat]

Ohh! Me me! If you read the points that dean is posting, it does NOT include the countdown reset. If you take into consideration Johnny Gray had MADE the top 10, he would have started 10th with 2000 points. What does not make sense is the fact that if he had earned 443 points, he'd ACTUALLY have 2,443 and be LEADING the points by 27. Someone somewhere has their math wrong. Dean is simply posting if you didn't use ANY reset or exclusion and just ran the season out like it should be.

Ok now i'm 100% confused about Gray, So now there's 3, there's he's leading, he's 5th, he's 7th, and then the truth is he's 11th. Bottom line better than 11th

 

[Bullard Anderson]

Like I said earlier, I am sure JGray and crew are OK with the circumstance cause they knew the rule and did not get the job done. Besides, JGray has garned a wealth of attention by being so successful without being in the Top 10. Sponsorship? Service Central and DSR know they have a potent team here. Let's be real, this isn't Brian Theil's team.

 

[the zone]

I agree everyone in the four pro classes know the deal, if they don't compete good enough to be in the top ten then they are on the outside looking in (where have we heard that quote before LOL) the thing wrong with clinching early is the interest does wane for most fans especially the newer ones (which the NHRA is trying to lure).
That is why NHL, NBA, NFL and MLB all have a deal where it draws our for such a long time. Sure the final series could end in 4 games but the built up to the final round is part of the whole experience. With a team getting the championship at Reading or Dallas or even earleir, you are only playing for the season ending bonus money.
That is why and I guess I am in favor of the countdown. It levels the playing field somewhat, making it possible to come down to the final race. and with fove or more teams still in the running, what could be better than that.

Dean

 

[Jon Asher]

Paul Sapienza, I don’t expect you, me or anyone else here on Nitromater to “see” an increase in media coverage. That increase in coverage came from the so-called straight press (which obviously doesn’t give us as much exposure as the sport deserves – but that’s another story).

I don’t get all of the NHRA clips, but I do know that the final race in the Countdown to 10 does result in more media credential requests, and I also know the Media Department fields more calls and inquiries regarding that last Countdown to 10 race than they do for anything other than the Finals itself, when the Countdown to 1 is determined.

Mike Miller, tell Del Worsham, Spencer Massey and the F/C guys still battling for the title that what they’re doing is generating “artificial drama.”

Didn’t anyone see Matt Hagan’s reaction when he lost the title last year? Did anyone think that was “artificial?” Faked? No, the guy was crushed.

Jon Asher

 

[Rat]

Paul Sapienza, I don’t expect you, me or anyone else here on Nitromater to “see” an increase in media coverage. That increase in coverage came from the so-called straight press (which obviously doesn’t give us as much exposure as the sport deserves – but that’s another story).

I don’t get all of the NHRA clips, but I do know that the final race in the Countdown to 10 does result in more media credential requests, and I also know the Media Department fields more calls and inquiries regarding that last Countdown to 10 race than they do for anything other than the Finals itself, when the Countdown to 1 is determined.

Mike Miller, tell Del Worsham, Spencer Massey and the F/C guys still battling for the title that what they’re doing is generating “artificial drama.”

Didn’t anyone see Matt Hagan’s reaction when he lost the title last year? Did anyone think that was “artificial?” Faked? No, the guy was crushed.

Jon Asher

If anyone is running along the lines that it's as fake as the wwe, I have to say it is EXCELLENT fixing lol, but I know no one is taking it that far. I used to have a friend that thought all of the NFL was fake, you cant fake half the things you see in the NFL.

 

[mike]

Sorry Mr. Asher, while I am a long time fan of yours, I can't agree...I'm sure the personal drama felt by the participants is real, but the situation that puts them there is as real as something created by a "reality" TV show...

 

[PJ]

What you guys are suggesting is akin to local youth sports programs that no longer “allow” winners and losers for fear of some poor kid getting his feelings hurt, or suffering from low self-esteem. Those are the very kids who are going to grow into adulthood unable to deal with the very real harsh realities of being adults. Disappointments are going to come your way, so learn to deal with it. If you can deal with a crushing loss on the soccer pitch when you’re 10, losing your first job at 26 is going to be easier to handle because you’ve successfully dealt with disappointments in the past.

There are going to come national events when you’re not going to qualify. Just ask multi-time, iconic Pro Stock driver Warren Johnson, who takes it like a man, and comes back fighting harder than ever.

There are going to come times when you don’t qualify for the Countdown. Just ask P/SM racer Steve Johnson how that feels. If he were truly unhinged by it he would have gone back to Alabama to whine, but he’s still out there trying.



Mike Miller, I also follow F-1 and know a lot of journalists worldwide who follow the whole tour, and strongly disagree with your analysis. Vettel’s domination has been a turnoff, not a positive. Secondly, one of F-1’s biggest problems is that, over the years, individual teams have sometimes been so dominant that it backfires.



Jon Asher
Senior Editor
CopetitionPlus.com

I would argue that the countdown is closer to the grade school no losers mentality than not. Before, you had to be solid for most if not all season in order to be crowned the champ. Now we have seen drivers who have lost 1/2 of their first round races or are well off what the championship level players are doing but still get into the countdown, even worse they have won it.

It is almost a no driver left behind act as such a huge percentage of the full time teams make the countdown. God forbid we have someone go out and beat the competition too much. If not for the countdown imagine how many drivers would have hurt feelings since they can’t keep up and would be out of the running to early. I don’t recall who coined the term here several years ago, but they equated the countdown as welfare racing. It seems to fit.

It has taken away any meaning to being dominant. There is no use for it as those who struggled all season will make the countdown with a shot at winning it all. The championship used to stand for a season of greatness, now it is only six races. As we have seen, you don’t even have to win a race to be the champ now.

I would be shocked if there has been any significant media bump. The occasional story, just as before, is all we ever see. I’ve tried getting my place, bleacherreport.com, to run more drag racing stories and they are indifferent. I have the green light to write, but there is not any big push for coverage. I would like to help spread the sport but I just can’t write anything positive about the c-down. I don’t want to write BS and I would rather not blast the sport to non racing people. Although, at times, it is difficult to hold back.

They still allow non playoff cars in the same bracket as playoff teams, which is a mess. Watching a driver win a title while only being able to beat one playoff car along the way is disgusting. My Lions will win the Super Bowl if they get to play the Dolphins, Rams and Colts in the playoffs this year. Of course that is crazy, but we have had that happen with the countdown.

As for the dominance issue, to a degree I understand and can agree. But then I see how popular Force became, which was in part, due to his dominance. Other sports have had dominant teams, the Yankees, Earnhardt, Red Wings and such have had eras of greatness. Now of course none match the string of titles that Force had, but their dominance didn’t hurt their sports.

 

[PJ]

Sorry Mr. Asher, while I am a long time fan of yours, I can't agree...I'm sure the personal drama felt by the participants is real, but the situation that puts them there is as real as something created by a "reality" TV show...

I agree, its not fake to the drivers. They line up to start the season knowing the game, so regardless of how they really feel about it, they are in it to win it. The drama to them is real.

To me wathcing it, it smells like reality tv junk. Drama yes, but manufactured. That's why I have yet to be able to finish watching a season sicne the countdown started. I used to watch/record every race and qualifying. I don't know when I last watched a Q show and I think I have only seen two C-down races.

Maybe they should get a cyrstal ball for winning, or vote one driver out after each race. Then we would have "drama"

 

[Rat]

Here is a look how the sport has changed with and without the countdown:
(I did all the accurate math, I may not of included it, but it's all correct. All outcomes are with all countdown points taken away.)

2007: The countdown did what it was designed to do, it crowned 3 champions out of 4 who never would of won the championship with regular season rules, I think this is what made many fans hate it.

Top-Fuel: 2007 is not a true DSR championship year.
1. Rod Fuller should of won by an almost 300 point lead, but the countdown let schumacher have a lucky year that would of never been won regularly.

Funny-Car: Outcome: Robert Hight is really a true champion, without all the 09 drama.
1. Tony Pedregon won it, really would of been 2nd. Robert Hight would of won the title. everyone though it screwed what would of been 1st championship winner Ron Capps. Not the case, he would of finish 3rd.

Pro-Stock:
1. Greg Anderson would of won it, Jeg did.

2. Everyone felt Connolly got screwed he would of actually finished 2nd.

PSB:
1. Matt Smith led the points before the countdown and he still would of won without the countdown.

2. Peggy Llewellyn made the countdown in the last race, everyone thought she got lucky by starting 9th and finishing 4th. I did my math, she would of finished 5th without the program.

2008: A little better, only 2 of 4 champions got years ruined by the program

TF:
1. Schumacher won by 258 points, without it would of won by 786 points!

FC:
1. Cruz Pedregon won it, screwed what would of been 1st championship winner Tim Wilkerson (but surprising to me, Tim would of lost either way by just 36 points, so he really screwed no one).

2. Jack Beckman entered countdown 9th, finished 3rd, Showed how the coundown could turn a dull year into an exciting one. Regular season would of been a dull finish.

PS:
1. Greg Anderson would of won AGAIN, jeg won it. Jeg would of actually finished 2nd -17 points out!

2. Edwards entered coundown 9th, finished 4th. Regular season would of been a dull finish

PSB:
1. Matt Smith would of won the title fair and square, Eddie Kraweic did, he started the countdown 7th!

2. Rivas finished 2nd as a championship runner up when he entered the countdown 7th, year would of never been that good, but still a good 4th

2009: Only 1 champion who won the championship without the help of the countdown, countdown gave us 3 champions who would of never of won that year.

TF:

1. Antron Brown would of won, Schumacher did when he would of really been 3rd.

FC:
1. Robert Hight, Screwed would of been championship winner Tony Pedregon. What is I guarantee you not known by almost every fan, Tony Pedregon would of won the championship by 1, yes 1 point over Ashley Force! The countdown ruined one hell of a good finish.

PS:
1. Mike Edwards dominated and would of won countdown or no countdown.

PSB:
1. Eddie Kraweic Would of won, not Hector Arana.

2010: 2/4 races lost championships due to countdown

TF:
1. Larry Dixon would of won without countdown either way.

FC:
1. John Force won it and made the countdown useless, Hagen, would of finished 2nd either way.

2. By winning no rounds in the countdown he entered it 2nd, robert hight finished 8th, would of been a top 5 finish.

PS:
1. Anderson won it, should of gone to Edwards.

PSB:
1. Championship should of went to Andew Hines, Went to LE instead. He would of finished 2nd either way. Earned an amazing 651 countdown points. That is a record.

2011: countdown still had a chance to not change a thing, first year ever. All 4 countdown winners could still be your champions without the countdown. This could be the first non effective championship winning countdown year, we will see

TF:
1. Del would have it all wrapped up, no points race

FC:
1. Mike Neff would have it all wrapped up.

PS:
1. Jason Line would have it all wrapped up.

PSB:
1. Eddie Kraweic would have it wrapped up.


Summary:

If there never was a countdown drag racing would not be too different, for the haters of it, it stole some drivers season's for the supporters it made drivers careers. How would your picks faired? How would drag racing of been with no countdown since 2007:

TF
Schumacher would only be a 5-time champ, not 7-time missing 2007 and 2009 titles. His record 6 titles would be non existant. 1999, 2004-2006, and 2008.

Del Worsham would be a champion

Rod Fuller would be a champion

Antron Brown would of won a title.

Larry Dixon would still be a 3-time champ.

FC:
John Force would still be a 15-time champ

Tony Pedregon would still be a 2-time champ but 2009, not 2007 would of been his year.

Robert Hight would be a champion with 2007, not 2009 being his year.

Cruz Pedregon would still be a 2-time champ, 2008 was still his year.

Matt Hagen would not be much of a name in the class.

PS:
Greg Anderson would still be a 5-time champ, (2003-2005, 2007-2008) not (2003-2005, 2010)

Mike Edwards would be a 2-time champion in 2009 and 2010.

Jeg Coughlin would be a 2-time champion (2007 and 2008 would of never happend)

The countdown would of been owned by Greg Anderson and Mike Edwards

PSB:
Andrew Hines would be a 4-time champ (2004-2006, 2010)

LE would not be a champion

Matt Smith would be a 2-time champion

Eddie Kraweic be a 2-time champ would of won the 2009 title, not 2008, and the 2011 title.

Hector Arana would never be a champ, Hector Arana Jr. not a contender

 

[Dave]

That's some awesome research! Now go do all the champions from 1995-2011 using the old 1,000 points for a win 800RU 600 semis 400 rd2 200 rd1 system. Also 200 points for a national record - AND we used to give them out for speed too until the insurance companies discouraged going faster. Then go back even further and add in 50 points for low et of every race and 50 points for top speed of every race! I wanna see how many different champions there would have been back into the 1980's. Point being? The structure has changed numerous times before and will no doubt change again, just give it time to play out.

 

[Rat]

I just always feel better about the countdown when a team who led all year still wins. NHRA results only go back to 1997...another thing I feel they should fix.

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

Paul Sapienza, I don’t expect you, me or anyone else here on Nitromater to “see” an increase in media coverage.
Jon Asher

My point excatly sir. We were told the CD would generate more mainstreem media coverage. If neither you , me, or any other mater sees an increase in coverage, then there is none. The CD failed.

 

[PJ]

Here is a look how the sport has changed with and without the countdown:
(I did all the accurate math, I may not of included it, but it's all correct. All outcomes are with all countdown points taken away.)

2007: The countdown did what it was designed to do, it crowned 3 champions out of 4 who never would of won the championship with regular season rules, I think this is what made many fans hate it.

Top-Fuel: 2007 is not a true DSR championship year.
1. Rod Fuller should of won by an almost 300 point lead, but the countdown let schumacher have a lucky year that would of never been won regularly.

Funny-Car: Outcome: Robert Hight is really a true champion, without all the 09 drama.
1. Tony Pedregon won it, really would of been 2nd. Robert Hight would of won the title. everyone though it screwed what would of been 1st championship winner Ron Capps. Not the case, he would of finish 3rd.

Pro-Stock:
1. Greg Anderson would of won it, Jeg did.

2. Everyone felt Connolly got screwed he would of actually finished 2nd.

PSB:
1. Matt Smith led the points before the countdown and he still would of won without the countdown.

2. Peggy Llewellyn made the countdown in the last race, everyone thought she got lucky by starting 9th and finishing 4th. I did my math, she would of finished 5th without the program.

2008: A little better, only 2 of 4 champions got years ruined by the program

TF:
1. Schumacher won by 258 points, without it would of won by 786 points!

FC:
1. Cruz Pedregon won it, screwed what would of been 1st championship winner Tim Wilkerson (but surprising to me, Tim would of lost either way by just 36 points, so he really screwed no one).

2. Jack Beckman entered countdown 9th, finished 3rd, Showed how the coundown could turn a dull year into an exciting one. Regular season would of been a dull finish.

PS:
1. Greg Anderson would of won AGAIN, jeg won it. Jeg would of actually finished 2nd -17 points out!

2. Edwards entered coundown 9th, finished 4th. Regular season would of been a dull finish

PSB:
1. Matt Smith would of won the title fair and square, Eddie Kraweic did, he started the countdown 7th!

2. Rivas finished 2nd as a championship runner up when he entered the countdown 7th, year would of never been that good, but still a good 4th

2009: Only 1 champion who won the championship without the help of the countdown, countdown gave us 3 champions who would of never of won that year.

TF:

1. Antron Brown would of won, Schumacher did when he would of really been 3rd.

FC:
1. Robert Hight, Screwed would of been championship winner Tony Pedregon. What is I guarantee you not known by almost every fan, Tony Pedregon would of won the championship by 1, yes 1 point over Ashley Force! The countdown ruined one hell of a good finish.

PS:
1. Mike Edwards dominated and would of won countdown or no countdown.

PSB:
1. Eddie Kraweic Would of won, not Hector Arana.

2010: 2/4 races lost championships due to countdown

TF:
1. Larry Dixon would of won without countdown either way.

FC:
1. John Force won it and made the countdown useless, Hagen, would of finished 2nd either way.

2. By winning no rounds in the countdown he entered it 2nd, robert hight finished 8th, would of been a top 5 finish.

PS:
1. Anderson won it, should of gone to Edwards.

PSB:
1. Championship should of went to Andew Hines, Went to LE instead. He would of finished 2nd either way. Earned an amazing 651 countdown points. That is a record.

2011: countdown still had a chance to not change a thing, first year ever. All 4 countdown winners could still be your champions without the countdown. This could be the first non effective championship winning countdown year, we will see

TF:
1. Del would have it all wrapped up, no points race

FC:
1. Mike Neff would have it all wrapped up.

PS:
1. Jason Line would have it all wrapped up.

PSB:
1. Eddie Kraweic would have it wrapped up.


Summary:

If there never was a countdown drag racing would not be too different, for the haters of it, it stole some drivers season's for the supporters it made drivers careers. How would your picks faired? How would drag racing of been with no countdown since 2007:

TF
Schumacher would only be a 5-time champ, not 7-time missing 2007 and 2009 titles. His record 6 titles would be non existant. 1999, 2004-2006, and 2008.

Del Worsham would be a champion

Rod Fuller would be a champion

Antron Brown would of won a title.

Larry Dixon would still be a 3-time champ.

FC:
John Force would still be a 15-time champ

Tony Pedregon would still be a 2-time champ but 2009, not 2007 would of been his year.

Robert Hight would be a champion with 2007, not 2009 being his year.

Cruz Pedregon would still be a 2-time champ, 2008 was still his year.

Matt Hagen would not be much of a name in the class.

PS:
Greg Anderson would still be a 5-time champ, (2003-2005, 2007-2008) not (2003-2005, 2010)

Mike Edwards would be a 2-time champion in 2009 and 2010.

Jeg Coughlin would be a 2-time champion (2007 and 2008 would of never happend)

The countdown would of been owned by Greg Anderson and Mike Edwards

PSB:
Andrew Hines would be a 4-time champ (2004-2006, 2010)

LE would not be a champion

Matt Smith would be a 2-time champion

Eddie Kraweic be a 2-time champ would of won the 2009 title, not 2008, and the 2011 title.

Hector Arana would never be a champ, Hector Arana Jr. not a contender

Great research, Back to the Capps getting hosed point though, I might be wrong but I think it has more to do then just the countdown. Wasn't that the year that he was docked points for an oil down when it was proven that it was the car before him. He lost the points and the title.

I like how we would have had some close seasons without the handicapping of the points system that we do now. In fact some even closer then what there is now.

 

[Dave]

Great research, Back to the Capps getting hosed point though, I might be wrong but I think it has more to do then just the countdown. Wasn't that the year that he was docked points for an oil down when it was proven that it was the car before him. He lost the points and the title.

I like how we would have had some close seasons without the handicapping of the points system that we do now. In fact some even closer then what there is now.

I thought when Capps got hosed you had to go back to 2005 - pre countdown at Reading.

Left Lane: Ron Capps No Time, Now #17; Best prior run: 5.081/251.86, Was #17 That
Right Lane: John Force Runs 4.804/322.11, Now #2; Best prior run: 4.910/310.13, Was #10

Both cars did their burnouts. When they were getting ready to stage, starter Rick Stewart told Capps to shut his car down. Force had a nice run to move into the number two spot. After Force finished his run, Capps and his crew got into a starting line argument with Stewart.

They shut him off for an oil leak on the starting line that wasn't from his car. He lost a qualifying run in the "good" conditions and was a DNQ going into saturday. He eventually ended up in 9th, and Scelzi was #1. That made for a 6 point spread. Maybe he would have gotten the run and went #1 instead of Scelzi making it a 7 point swing? In the end, Scelzi won the championship by 8 points.

 

[Dave]

I just always feel better about the countdown when a team who led all year still wins. NHRA results only go back to 1997...another thing I feel they should fix.

When you did those outcomes... how did you tally the points? Did you include the "little" points for being top 3 times of each session too in recent years? That may make a big difference too.