Another fatal guardwall crash

[my friends call me Zappy]

Just saw the tragic Doug Mcrobie thread. How many will it take till they get rid of the track side cement walls??

 

[yoda]

Before they do that Paul, don't you think they should investigate the ratio of head-ons vs. the glancing blows (that occur much more often), and make a decision based on HOW a car impacts the wall? Soft walls work for NASCAR because cars usually spin or drift into them.... When was the last time you saw a stock car DRIVE into a wall?

Sadly, NHRA has had a few impact turns lately that have turned tragic, but would that fatality number increase if the wall surface caused additional injuries/deaths due to the various different types of cars/ bikes raced?

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

Most tracks have tons of room on the sides of the track. What I'm saying is, give this room to the drivers/cars. No need to keep the cars on the racing surface. Why make them contact an immovable object before they have to??

Indy 500 - Nascar, I can't think of any style racing that has walls, on both sides all the way around the track. These walls are a hazard, imo.

 

[vegasnitro]

The wider they make the track,the more potential there is to build speed and hit the wall harder than they do now and more potential for increased angle impacts. Also, you widen the track, and you are bringing the cars and incidents closer to spectators. Because you may be able to widen the tracks, but those grandstands ain't gettin' moved ....

 

[whitelightning]

if you make the track wider the groove over time will spread out. in a way is good you have more space to get traction. but i know in my case and alot of fuel altered drivers and pro mods this just means we have more space to move around and just let the car do its thing. theres a track in evadale texas down by houston we ran earlier this year and again in 2 weeks its a old air strip but for half track they cut the center of both lanes out and put concerte in. when your on that track you can see the asphalt on the sides and you can pretty well tell where to lift. we ran at mokan a few weeks ago they painted the asphalt out side the grove black to help seal it but there you cant see the groove because it all blends in from that. all that being said if the driver see hes getting way out he will lift if he cant see it he doesnt know when its to late. the walls are always going to be there there will always be probelms with them. you cant help how you hit them most the time. most the time when you do hit the wall you have been along for the ride for awhile anyways. it goes back to the driver knows the risk he takes when hes in the car. if he wanted to be safe he would sit at home on the couch and play video games to race instead. thats just my 2 cents.

 

[whitelightning]

and yes that is sad news to hear another driver pass away dont take my other post as i dont have feelings.

 

[ctjstr]

Most tracks have tons of room on the sides of the track. What I'm saying is, give this room to the drivers/cars. No need to keep the cars on the racing surface. Why make them contact an immovable object before they have to??

Indy 500 - Nascar, I can't think of any style racing that has walls, on both sides all the way around the track. These walls are a hazard, imo.

Although my experience is more with bike then cars, I can tell you without a doubt that walls immediately adjacent to the racing surface is almost a necessity, especially on the big bikes that carry the front tire any distance.

I've seen probably 15 or more accidents where bikes will glance off the wall, dump the rider, but after a slide, he/she will get up and walk away. I've also personally witnessed two fatalities, both having to do with the lack of a wall, or too short of a wall. The track design experts I've dealt with are all uniform in thier recommendation that walls be right next to the surface. It decreases the angle of attack between the vehicle and wall, keeps riders/drivers safer and keeps spectators safer. I suspect that is why wiesenberg insurance, who specs the safety guidelines for track design, includes height requirements and mandates barriers adjacent to the surface, at least on new tracks.

 

[davey]

The wider they make the track,the more potential there is to build speed and hit the wall harder than they do now and more potential for increased angle impacts. Also, you widen the track, and you are bringing the cars and incidents closer to spectators. Because you may be able to widen the tracks, but those grandstands ain't gettin' moved ....

Exactly. Good post.

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

To me the wider they make the track, the LESS speed when they get to the wall. Paint a line at the outside of the lane, just like the center line, when a car reaches it, game over, driver lifts. Then he/she has this added room to gather it up. Result, less speed at impact, or no impact at all.

We've all seen other race cars slide around, (off the racing surface) and come to a safe stop. With no impact.

Seems to me the wall impact is whats harming our drivers and damaging the cars. If we can avoid this I think it's a good thing.

 

[yoda]

To me the wider they make the track, the LESS speed when they get to the wall. Paint a line at the outside of the lane, just like the center line, when a car reaches it, game over, driver lifts. Then he/she has this added room to gather it up. Result, less speed at impact, or no impact at all.

We've all seen other race cars slide around, (off the racing surface) and come to a safe stop. With no impact.

Seems to me the wall impact is whats harming our drivers and damaging the cars. If we can avoid this I think it's a good thing.

Given the current speeds, the time between being on a helluva pass and spitting out the words "Oh $&!*" through your helmet is about one second. One.

The idea that a driver is going to lift at an established paint line, AND then the car will slow down and correct is pretty wishful thinking... You are talking TENTHS of a second.

Paul, I think you have been watching the NASCAR guys do their little slip and slide deal and forget that drag car science is based on traction, brute power and things occuring in a much shorter period of time than what happpens in other motorsports.

Moving the walls further off the racing surface just allows the potential for more schrappnel to wind up in the crowd (I'm sure Newton or Einstein has a theory somewhere that expalins that in more detail).

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

I'm sure the SR. Maters (fans for 30+yrs.) will back me up here. They have all seen drag cars leave the racing surface and come to a safe stop.

1) no harm to driver
2) no damage to car
3) no track clean-up

I'm just saying, if we have the room, use it. No need to cause a crash that doesn't need to happen.

 

[davey]

To me the wider they make the track, the LESS speed when they get to the wall. Paint a line at the outside of the lane, just like the center line, when a car reaches it, game over, driver lifts. Then he/she has this added room to gather it up. Result, less speed at impact, or no impact at all.

We've all seen other race cars slide around, (off the racing surface) and come to a safe stop. With no impact.

Seems to me the wall impact is whats harming our drivers and damaging the cars. If we can avoid this I think it's a good thing.

Ever lose control of a car and slide across wet grass? Not that I've ever done that but you sure as hell don't slow down! If you had asphalt out there it would be full of "marbles" just like blows up out of the groove at a NASCAR track. Those cars certainly don't slow down either when they get into that crap.

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

Yes I've slid on grass and snow (well a friend of mine has ) and you sure don't gain speed. If I'm all wrong here thinkin more room is better/safer. Then should we move the walls in closer?? right next to the groove perhaps??

The wall hit is whats killing our drivers, to lower the speed at contact or avoid contact at all, has to be an improvement.

 

[yoda]

I'm sure the SR. Maters (fans for 30+yrs.) will back me up here. They have all seen drag cars leave the racing surface and come to a safe stop.

1) no harm to driver
2) no damage to car
3) no track clean-up

I'm just saying, if we have the room, use it. No need to cause a crash that doesn't need to happen.

Lions- 1967
Bakersfield- 1967
OCIR- 1968
Irwindale-1970
National Speedway- 1970
Indy- 1971
E-Town- 1973

Got the T-shirts. Any questions?

I've seen cars get into the grass/ dirt at all those places. Luck plays a huge part of what happens. Trust me, not all of them end pretty. I've seen s lot of cars that became spagetti because of the walls, but the drivers walked away. I've also seen drivers turned into pudding because they slipped, dipped and pitched their way through the grass...

Personally, I'd rather lose the pipe than the person... But that's just my opinion.

 

[mick]

some would say most drag racing accidents tend
to flow in one direction.....down track - it is all too obvious lately that
mass accelarating in one direction does not stay in that direction when
presented with traction problems.
center guard rail between lanes: when driver loses control of vehicle
- immediately minimizes overall width between (2) concrete guardrails.
- argument would be the deflection of force against a center guardrail
would have a much greater chance of being less perpendicular to front
of vehicle than if vehicle were allowed to cross width of opponent's lane,
thus impacting with a force more perpendicular to concrete guardrail
- most importantly, the loss of control of one vehicle greatly reduces the
chance that his/her incident will effect the driver in other lane.
(bruce allen/kenny koretsky) (gary scelzi/paul smith) (john force/kenny b.)
.....and the list goes on and on.

what if drag racing had this wall in place since it's inception?
would it not feel strange and possibly even dumb to suggest the
removal of it?

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

what if drag racing had this wall in place since it's inception?
would it not feel strange and possibly even dumb to suggest the
removal of it?

I'm not suggesting they do away with the walls, just move them wider to give more time and space to slow the car safetly. Yes at some point the car has to be stopped. But not at track side. Put the wall before the stands or return road. jmo

 

[yoda]

I'm not suggesting they do away with the walls, just move them wider to give more time and space to slow the car safetly. Yes at some point the car has to be stopped. But not at track side. Put the wall before the stands or return road. jmo

No more Kool-Aid for you....

Paul, at speed, some cars are covering 200ft per second... Exactly how far off the track should these walls be placed that would allow a car/bike to reach a slow enough velocity that injury would be reduced? 200 feet? 300 feet? What is a good speed that these vehicles should be at before they contact a solid object designed to stop them? Street cars with airbags and seat belts barely prevent injury at 50mph...

And then, how far back do you move the spectators so that they do not get hit by all the (now flying) debris as the car pitches and rolls through this giant field that you propose?

Before you answer, please refer to any of the multitudes of drag boat or salt flat incidents that have occured over the years, where the vehicle has hit nothing but THE RACING SURFACE and has disentergrated into a thousand small, high speed projectiles...

 

[Mike]

Martin, if you were in the grass at, Lions, OCIR, or Irwindale you had already been into or over the wall.

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

Martin, any addition in room would be a +. A car hitting a wall 6ft from it is gonna hit harder than if the car has an extra 50', 75', or what ever is available. Look at RT66, lots of room on both sides, not used.

Back before guardwalls or guardrails, lots of cars went off the side of the track, driver lifted, slowed to a safe stop, no impact. That same car today would hit the wall, possibly hurting driver + damage car.

By moving the wall we could avoid contact at all, or at least lessin the speed of impact. Both would be an improvement, no??

Another + of not keeping the cars on the racing surface is when a blow up the driver can get off the track and the oil, ect. is not on the track.

Also, often when a car hits the wall it throughs it into the opposite lane, not a good thing.

(ps) no cool aid - just diet A&W

 

[yoda]

Martin, if you were in the grass at, Lions, OCIR, or Irwindale you had already been into or over the wall.

Actually, over the Armaco- and then your ride really got fun ... And on the ones that had barriers well off the racing surface, the potential to "dip, hook and flip" increases as the cars traveled over the ungroomed rough.