kingcobrafan
Nitro Member
Obviously, we're concerned about Kate first and foremost, but I agree, it had to be probably the worst deja vu imaginable for Tom.
Nitromater
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Kate Harker Crash
- Thread starter Joker
- Start date
Obviously, we're concerned about Kate first and foremost, but I agree, it had to be probably the worst deja vu imaginable for Tom.
Darryl
Nitro Member
Guys...I wrote the report that got cut and pasted and I can only say that I really don't give a good g#D Darn about that part. It is illegal to do that so I have to go along. I can only hope to get the stuff I say in these incidents correct so that the fans can know what happened, and not scare friends and family too much in the process.
The incident also reminded me of Shelly's crash and I was also present at this venue when Neal crashed. Because of that I was VERY concerned about Kate and I posted an update in the report on the final round...after an NHRA release confirmed her condition. For me the worst part is knowing the driver is out cold and has NO control over the car. Very, very scary!
As far as shutting off a fuel car...darn near impossible. If they are still getting fuel, they will continue to run. I've seen mags fall out of the engine at about 300 feet and top fuel cars run to the finish. Ask Muldowney, she had this happen several years ago and STILL ran a 5.3 something with the mag flapping around behind the car!
The incident also reminded me of Shelly's crash and I was also present at this venue when Neal crashed. Because of that I was VERY concerned about Kate and I posted an update in the report on the final round...after an NHRA release confirmed her condition. For me the worst part is knowing the driver is out cold and has NO control over the car. Very, very scary!
As far as shutting off a fuel car...darn near impossible. If they are still getting fuel, they will continue to run. I've seen mags fall out of the engine at about 300 feet and top fuel cars run to the finish. Ask Muldowney, she had this happen several years ago and STILL ran a 5.3 something with the mag flapping around behind the car!
megadeth
Nitro Member
Here are some photo's I took of Harkers Blowover: nitromater - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
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Thrill
Nitro Member
re:wheelie bar.
wheelie bars aren't designed to work that far down track. they are set to prevent wheelstands based off the tire height at the starting line. as anyone that has seen a car go down track, the tires grow considerably. the wheelie bar also raises with the tire level. so a wheelie bar that will keep the front end within reason at the launch will allow a considerably higher wheelstand angle once the car is on the tire.
wheelie bar design and mounting may be something to look into. i started a thread on my site after gene snow had a blowover testing in dallas that effectively ended his driving career. my next column on dragracingonline will be devoted to this topic. i don't think the answer is at the wheelie bar, it's preventing wheelstands in the first place.
there was a lot of discussion in the thread. killing the ignition will not shut off a wide open throttle nitro motor. you have to kill the fuel. i think there needs to be an inline fuel shutoff connected to an inclinometer like they use on heavy equipment. i will elaborate more in my column.
wheelie bars aren't designed to work that far down track. they are set to prevent wheelstands based off the tire height at the starting line. as anyone that has seen a car go down track, the tires grow considerably. the wheelie bar also raises with the tire level. so a wheelie bar that will keep the front end within reason at the launch will allow a considerably higher wheelstand angle once the car is on the tire.
wheelie bar design and mounting may be something to look into. i started a thread on my site after gene snow had a blowover testing in dallas that effectively ended his driving career. my next column on dragracingonline will be devoted to this topic. i don't think the answer is at the wheelie bar, it's preventing wheelstands in the first place.
there was a lot of discussion in the thread. killing the ignition will not shut off a wide open throttle nitro motor. you have to kill the fuel. i think there needs to be an inline fuel shutoff connected to an inclinometer like they use on heavy equipment. i will elaborate more in my column.
Jenn
Nitro Member
I'm sure there is no simple answer to this, but at what point is too far? Do the drivers know the point or assume the wheelie bar would stop them from going over? I realize that it's pure judgement call on where to lift but is there a point in TAD/TF training that says "If you go this high, you will go over?
There's been some spectacular saves from those blowovers in the past, and I'm sure besides the wheelie bar breaking, there are other factors (like wind mostly) involved but what all contributes to the blowover?
There's been some spectacular saves from those blowovers in the past, and I'm sure besides the wheelie bar breaking, there are other factors (like wind mostly) involved but what all contributes to the blowover?
Buddy
Nitro Member
I remember that thread... Lots of input and ideas... Very informative discussion...
As for what Jenn said... I think (but have no experience yet) that it all happens so quickly if you dont react immediately or think that it'll come back down its already too late... When you get to a certain point the air and momentum keeps you flipping... As for training, I don't think Frank offers a new "Blowover training" as the success (survival) rate might be less than desirable...
CJ Curtsinger
The trouble with the inclinometers used on heavy machinery that it they use weights and can be triggered by angle of inclination or by acceleration. Unfortunately, the acceleration forces on a TAD or TFD act on the sensor weights in the same direction as an increasing angle of attack. Heavy machinery doesn't accelerate much in any direction.
Perhaps instead there ought to be an angle of attack vane, similar to the ones used on aircraft. They are relatively simple devices and are not adversely affected by acceleration - they work even during catapult launches, which are similar to the forces acting on a dragster launching. Once the car reaches a predetermined angle of attack, the sensor could be used to trigger a fuel shutoff.
As far as driver reaction goes, they have to react almost instantly because the pinion starts climbing the ring gear - the blowover starts because of unbalanced torque, but once the car gets to about 30 degrees, the aerodynamic forces take over and the driver is just along for the ride. Ironically, one of the culprits is too much traction - if the tire plants instead of slipping slightly early in the run, the nose of the car starts up because of the extra torque. Once the car gets some speed built up, the front wing counteracts the torque, but when it starts up early, the front wing angle of attack increases and the wing doesn't generate enough downforce to hold the nose down - in fact, once the nose gets up in the air, the front wing adds to the torque instead of counterbalancing it.
- Larry
Perhaps instead there ought to be an angle of attack vane, similar to the ones used on aircraft. They are relatively simple devices and are not adversely affected by acceleration - they work even during catapult launches, which are similar to the forces acting on a dragster launching. Once the car reaches a predetermined angle of attack, the sensor could be used to trigger a fuel shutoff.
As far as driver reaction goes, they have to react almost instantly because the pinion starts climbing the ring gear - the blowover starts because of unbalanced torque, but once the car gets to about 30 degrees, the aerodynamic forces take over and the driver is just along for the ride. Ironically, one of the culprits is too much traction - if the tire plants instead of slipping slightly early in the run, the nose of the car starts up because of the extra torque. Once the car gets some speed built up, the front wing counteracts the torque, but when it starts up early, the front wing angle of attack increases and the wing doesn't generate enough downforce to hold the nose down - in fact, once the nose gets up in the air, the front wing adds to the torque instead of counterbalancing it.
- Larry
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Just Paul
Nitro Member
There has not been a blowover in a few years now. It used to happen pretty often! It's a damm shame the wheelie bar folded up-- unlikle Scott Weis in Joliet earlier this year, where it saved him. While we are on the subject of cause, I can think of 3 instances where the front wing broke, and inverted sending the front end skyward in the blink of an eye. Eddie Hill, Jimmy Nix (2nd one) and Don Prudhomme (1st one)
farmje
Nitro Member
First of all, glad Kate is OK. There have been some real good posts on this thread. I think one of the problems with shutting down a fuel motor is like what has been mentioned regarding killing the ignition. From what I understand, fuel motors at a certain point will actually "diesel", meaning they can keep running purely on heat and compression with no spark. So somehow the fuel supply has to be cutoff to shut one down. Or, if fire retardant works, maybe a button releasing it into the intake similar to FCs have to put out fires would work.
I am not here to bash anyone, and I have watched Tom Conway dragsters win for many years but is this possibly a tuners issue? Shelly had this issue, now Kate and if I remember correctly Steve Torrance and Conway had a fallout due to an argument over wing angle and the car not being safe. Everyone was quick to jump on Torrance and maybe rightfully so but this seems odd. Once again I know little about dragsters and in no way am questioning Conways ability but is it perhaps too aggressive?
TAFC 5 81
Nitro Member
Too much rear wing or not enough front wing?
Thrill
Nitro Member
Conway's car that Kate drives has the biggest front wing of any A/Fueler out there....it's the same as they run in T/F. Not that it's the cause.
Before any wheelstand prevention device can be effective, an effective inline fuel shutoff or air fired fuel shutoff needs to be designed. ignition kill won't kill a nitro car. such a fuel shutoff will be useful to funny cars as well as it could be connected to the fire bottles. a leading cause of big alky fc fires is a blower explosion lifting the blower and ripping the fuel line out of the top of the pump, spraying fuel everywhere.
I plan on having a lot of good topics for the column...
Before any wheelstand prevention device can be effective, an effective inline fuel shutoff or air fired fuel shutoff needs to be designed. ignition kill won't kill a nitro car. such a fuel shutoff will be useful to funny cars as well as it could be connected to the fire bottles. a leading cause of big alky fc fires is a blower explosion lifting the blower and ripping the fuel line out of the top of the pump, spraying fuel everywhere.
I plan on having a lot of good topics for the column...
Jenn
Nitro Member
Pinion climbing the ring gear? How does that happen? Is it a default in the manufacturing or just the torque situation?
.
Nitro Member
Laws of physics? For every force there's an equal and opposite force.
Just Paul
Nitro Member
The car gets into a situation where instead of the gear set moving the car forward, the pinion wants to climb the ring gear, and lifts the front end. Usually it seems to be where there is almost too much tracion, and the rear tires are not turning as fast as the rear end wants them to go.-- Imagine if the back tires were locked into place, as well as the ring gear. Now if you turned the pinion, instead of moving the ring gear (locked) it would climb the teeth and raise the front end.
2 good examples, Shelly Anderson and Pat Dakin. They both went into shake, and gave the car a quick slap on the loud pedal. The tires caught and the front ends came up and the car went over. Climbing the ring gear.
2 good examples, Shelly Anderson and Pat Dakin. They both went into shake, and gave the car a quick slap on the loud pedal. The tires caught and the front ends came up and the car went over. Climbing the ring gear.
HEMI6point1
Nitro Member
Rhonda Hartman had that happen to her a few years ago in E-town trying to qualify, but thankfully she didn't blow over. Although she didn't make the show, it was pretty cool seeing a 4.96 come up when her wheels were in the air on half the run!
On the pinion climbing the ring gear. If you ever drive a tractor and have the wheels get stuck or frozen to the ground in winter. You have to put it in reverse to get out or it will wheelie and flip over. Ring gear stays in place and the pinion climes around it.
Same with a fuel car when the tires stick good and theirs not enough weight on the nose.
On the fuel shut off. Ever been in the pits when they warm up a fuel car? After you shut off the fuel it takes a few seconds for the motor to run out the fuel and wind down.
Not near fast enough to save a blowover.
One idea is to make the wings able to change attack and bring the car back down. Kinda like the Nascar roof flaps. It works quick and requires minimal parts.
Same with a fuel car when the tires stick good and theirs not enough weight on the nose.
On the fuel shut off. Ever been in the pits when they warm up a fuel car? After you shut off the fuel it takes a few seconds for the motor to run out the fuel and wind down.
Not near fast enough to save a blowover.
One idea is to make the wings able to change attack and bring the car back down. Kinda like the Nascar roof flaps. It works quick and requires minimal parts.
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