What could NHRA possibly do about Team Diving?
- Thread starter Toejam
- Start date
Nitrohaulic
Nitro Member
Simple. Limit each operation to one team instead of four! 
LOL, multi-team operations are fair as long as they're not TOO multi. I'll bet if sportsman class owners had several teams and it was determined to be an unfair advantage, they wouldn't stop at limiting them to only four to avoiding stepping on toes and that they wouldn't hesitate to do it.
How about this. Limit each operation to one team to take away the extra data collecting ability. In return, open up the restrictions on innovation.
LOL, multi-team operations are fair as long as they're not TOO multi. I'll bet if sportsman class owners had several teams and it was determined to be an unfair advantage, they wouldn't stop at limiting them to only four to avoiding stepping on toes and that they wouldn't hesitate to do it.
How about this. Limit each operation to one team to take away the extra data collecting ability. In return, open up the restrictions on innovation.
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d'kid
Nitro Member
Thought we've been through this but let's go again.... multi car team run by a family with the same sponsors... JFR, CSK, I don't care... don't think we're going to see it this year with both Robert and Papa John running for the title... next season with the faked points race? I hope the whole final 8 races are one dive after another... bottom line.
And I don't think we're going to see it from DSR... but again, I don't care...
Long ago, I saw 2nd level cars paid to be 'broke' and put on the trailer... back when the quick looser would run on 'the break rule'... or not show up so someone got a bye at a National event... so what...
And guess what? as a Fan of the "Pro Show", I don't give a Flying Rat's @$$...
But, if you're going to 'lay down', be out front about it... but don't throw away a 'Championship' by being 'good sports'....
'Winning isn't Everything, It's the Only Thing'
And having said all that, I'd love to see Robert, Jimmy, Hop, and the guys Win the LAST REAL FC TITLE. But, if something happens and numerically your out of the chase by Pomona, block for the boss, and get that title back to JFR where it belongs
And I don't think we're going to see it from DSR... but again, I don't care...
Long ago, I saw 2nd level cars paid to be 'broke' and put on the trailer... back when the quick looser would run on 'the break rule'... or not show up so someone got a bye at a National event... so what...
And guess what? as a Fan of the "Pro Show", I don't give a Flying Rat's @$$...
But, if you're going to 'lay down', be out front about it... but don't throw away a 'Championship' by being 'good sports'....
'Winning isn't Everything, It's the Only Thing'
And having said all that, I'd love to see Robert, Jimmy, Hop, and the guys Win the LAST REAL FC TITLE. But, if something happens and numerically your out of the chase by Pomona, block for the boss, and get that title back to JFR where it belongs
Hypothetical question.
If you were in a position to win a Pts championship or an event and the car in the other lane is on your payroll, would you risk it all by running heads up, or do you tell the other car to lay down?
\
Recently in a Pro Mod finals at an IHRA event, both cars ran 22 second times, the boss getting the win. The reason was that they didn't want to give the illusion that team orders weren't given. PO'd a whole bunch of folks.
It's a no win situation for a team owner not to dictate the results in a manner that's best for his teams interest.
If we like seeing full fields of quality cars, this is the price we'll have to expect to pay. JMHO
If you were in a position to win a Pts championship or an event and the car in the other lane is on your payroll, would you risk it all by running heads up, or do you tell the other car to lay down?
\
Recently in a Pro Mod finals at an IHRA event, both cars ran 22 second times, the boss getting the win. The reason was that they didn't want to give the illusion that team orders weren't given. PO'd a whole bunch of folks.
It's a no win situation for a team owner not to dictate the results in a manner that's best for his teams interest.
If we like seeing full fields of quality cars, this is the price we'll have to expect to pay. JMHO
Nitrohaulic
Nitro Member
If it's a dive then it's not a race and it doesn't belong on a track. (legal disclaimer--unless it's a match race and the first round winner is lying down so that they have their best two out of three third round--ahem--not that THAT has ever happened--LOL) They shouldn't even have to go through the ridiculous motions. They should just announce "So and so has forfeited" so everyone can go home already.
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There is a way to limit diving: a "team" championship. In addition to the Eliminator Champions, I would add a team championship.
The "team" would not, however, be composed of one owner and 4 cars in a given eliminator. Instead, I propose requiring those entering the team points chase to include one car from each of the NHRA's eliminators. Thus, from Team Force one could include John's car in FC with, say, Bob Tasca's in TAFC, any Top Fuel car (maybe one of the one car teams such as Baca or Vandegriff), any TAD, a Pro/Stock car and one each from the Sportsman ranks all the way down to Super Street! Just one car from each eliminator, however. If an owner had four Pro/Stock cars, each of them would have to compete for the team championship on a different geographic team. The season points would be added up and the whole team would be honored at the end of the year and given some meaningful bucks to distribute.
I would like to see the "teams" have geographic names as that seems to be all that the soi disant sports journalists understand.
The individual eliminator championships would still be contested, of course. A multi-car owner might then have a dilemma if a dive would cost an eliminator championship en route to a team championship or vice versa. The way I envision this, the owner of the multi-car setup would not actually own all the other cars in the team, but they would be teammates for the purpose of the championship. Teams would have to be established in writing to NHRA before the Winternationals.
Imagine a team championship that came down to Pomona and the final pairing in Stock in which Kalitta's Michigan Maulers needs just that one round win to clinch the team championship from Shumacher's Chicago Cavaliers.
Okay, don't imagine it.
I'm just trying to help. Sure would increase the interest in the season long performance of sportsman heroes . . . and each of the current multi-car teams would have cars on separate geographic teams also contesting for those honors.
Cheers,
Ed
P.S. There is stiil no "e" in Camaro.
The "team" would not, however, be composed of one owner and 4 cars in a given eliminator. Instead, I propose requiring those entering the team points chase to include one car from each of the NHRA's eliminators. Thus, from Team Force one could include John's car in FC with, say, Bob Tasca's in TAFC, any Top Fuel car (maybe one of the one car teams such as Baca or Vandegriff), any TAD, a Pro/Stock car and one each from the Sportsman ranks all the way down to Super Street! Just one car from each eliminator, however. If an owner had four Pro/Stock cars, each of them would have to compete for the team championship on a different geographic team. The season points would be added up and the whole team would be honored at the end of the year and given some meaningful bucks to distribute.
I would like to see the "teams" have geographic names as that seems to be all that the soi disant sports journalists understand.
The individual eliminator championships would still be contested, of course. A multi-car owner might then have a dilemma if a dive would cost an eliminator championship en route to a team championship or vice versa. The way I envision this, the owner of the multi-car setup would not actually own all the other cars in the team, but they would be teammates for the purpose of the championship. Teams would have to be established in writing to NHRA before the Winternationals.
Imagine a team championship that came down to Pomona and the final pairing in Stock in which Kalitta's Michigan Maulers needs just that one round win to clinch the team championship from Shumacher's Chicago Cavaliers.
Okay, don't imagine it.
I'm just trying to help. Sure would increase the interest in the season long performance of sportsman heroes . . . and each of the current multi-car teams would have cars on separate geographic teams also contesting for those honors.
Cheers,
Ed
P.S. There is stiil no "e" in Camaro.
d'kid
Nitro Member
Afternoon Ron....
The average 'rube' in the stands can't tell the difference from a 4.7 and a 5 flat, nor can he tell the difference between a .102 and a .80 light... there ain't pro match racing anymore... or is there? The Pros book in 23 races a year... put on a show for the Promoter (NHRA) and the promoter takes a couple of hundred bucks from the fan for the weekend... some of the stuff I heard standing at the rail at 600 feet was bloody funny... and sad... like not knowing the difference between Ace Manzo's car and Big Jim Dunn's... heck, a A/FD Torco car and JR Todd...
Hardcore fans might tell, but the average 'butt in the seat' was clueless...
And I still feel that if someone can get the bucks and the drivers to run a half dozen cars, more power to them... if the family business is racing, then ya should be allowed to race as many cars as you need... and yeah, the sponsors want 'kids' in the cars, that's the demographics...
And if a team has 'Orders' so the Title goes home with them, so what? Like the world is going to end Monday morning? To your sponsors be true, everything else is just a show to the Unenlightened spectator.
And yeah, I want to see the Title go to JFR, no matter what it takes
Afternoon Ron....
The average 'rube' in the stands can't tell the difference from a 4.7 and a 5 flat, nor can he tell the difference between a .102 and a .80 light... there ain't pro match racing anymore... or is there? The Pros book in 23 races a year... put on a show for the Promoter (NHRA) and the promoter takes a couple of hundred bucks from the fan for the weekend... some of the stuff I heard standing at the rail at 600 feet was bloody funny... and sad... like not knowing the difference between Ace Manzo's car and Big Jim Dunn's... heck, a A/FD Torco car and JR Todd...
Hardcore fans might tell, but the average 'butt in the seat' was clueless...
And I still feel that if someone can get the bucks and the drivers to run a half dozen cars, more power to them... if the family business is racing, then ya should be allowed to race as many cars as you need... and yeah, the sponsors want 'kids' in the cars, that's the demographics...
And if a team has 'Orders' so the Title goes home with them, so what? Like the world is going to end Monday morning? To your sponsors be true, everything else is just a show to the Unenlightened spectator.
And yeah, I want to see the Title go to JFR, no matter what it takes
Laydowns happen in all motor sports. Good running #2 Cars become blockers in NASCAR and Didn't Ferrari make their #2 Driver Rubens Barrichello, obviously lay down for Schuemacher in F1 a while back. They had no problem doing that on a world stage.
Just a suggestion, if there is going to be a laydown, let the boss run, and when the win light goes on, let the other driver make an all out blast. Atleast the fans who paid good money will see and hear Nitro the way it should be.
Doug in the woods
Nitro Member
Don't know if it would work but each car must run
within 1% of all their runs made the entire weekend including qualifying (full runs without engine damage) in other words an adverage of all the runs.
If you fail to run within 1% with a fellow team car in other lane (diving) then the winning team car has points deducted just as an oildown.
With the exactness the cars are running these days that 1% should be really no problem.
It would be just like bracket racing. Now how many times have you heard on a broadcast that so an so is running like a bracket car?
just my thoughts
within 1% of all their runs made the entire weekend including qualifying (full runs without engine damage) in other words an adverage of all the runs.
If you fail to run within 1% with a fellow team car in other lane (diving) then the winning team car has points deducted just as an oildown.
With the exactness the cars are running these days that 1% should be really no problem.
It would be just like bracket racing. Now how many times have you heard on a broadcast that so an so is running like a bracket car?
just my thoughts
nedannouncer
Nitro Member
you've got it all wrong
"... some of the stuff I heard standing at the rail at 600 feet was bloody funny... and sad... like not knowing the difference between Ace Manzo's car and Big Jim Dunn's... heck, a A/FD Torco car and JR Todd..."
Karl, you've got it backwards...that stuff if beautiful. Those are people who have never been to a drag race and have spent their HARD EARNED money to walk through the gate. The fact that they are there is wonderful...so what if they aren't uber-fans. If people like those you saw stop showing up we're all back to waiting for the dragster to show upn the week after one of the NHRA's 10 national events.
Oh yeah I forgot...those were the good ol' days. Yikes.
Brian
"... some of the stuff I heard standing at the rail at 600 feet was bloody funny... and sad... like not knowing the difference between Ace Manzo's car and Big Jim Dunn's... heck, a A/FD Torco car and JR Todd..."
Karl, you've got it backwards...that stuff if beautiful. Those are people who have never been to a drag race and have spent their HARD EARNED money to walk through the gate. The fact that they are there is wonderful...so what if they aren't uber-fans. If people like those you saw stop showing up we're all back to waiting for the dragster to show upn the week after one of the NHRA's 10 national events.
Oh yeah I forgot...those were the good ol' days. Yikes.
Brian
The Counterfeiter
Nitro Member
What can NHRA do about team diving!?
Well . . . I've been thinking about this all day and I have the answer!
If a driver running for the championship wins a round over a teamate, drivers, crew chiefs and team owner will be required to submit to lie detector tests. I'm still working on the penalties for those caught lying, my initial idea would involve a car crusher operated by the Safety Safari. -
Sorry - just couldn't resist! It's pretty obvious that there is no way to police this. Crew chiefs have unlimited options to affect a car's performance at any point during a race - clutch weights in the pits, fuel, ignition and clutch timing through the laptop, etc.
Every fuel car is running on the edge on every run. Unless a disgruntled crew member spills the beans (and I doubt that any crew members would have any knowledge of a dive), no one will ever know. Multiple car teams have helped the sport grow and diving may (or may not) be an inevitible part of this.
We can endlessly speculate about diving, but none of us will ever know.
Well . . . I've been thinking about this all day and I have the answer!
If a driver running for the championship wins a round over a teamate, drivers, crew chiefs and team owner will be required to submit to lie detector tests. I'm still working on the penalties for those caught lying, my initial idea would involve a car crusher operated by the Safety Safari. -
Sorry - just couldn't resist! It's pretty obvious that there is no way to police this. Crew chiefs have unlimited options to affect a car's performance at any point during a race - clutch weights in the pits, fuel, ignition and clutch timing through the laptop, etc.
Every fuel car is running on the edge on every run. Unless a disgruntled crew member spills the beans (and I doubt that any crew members would have any knowledge of a dive), no one will ever know. Multiple car teams have helped the sport grow and diving may (or may not) be an inevitible part of this.
We can endlessly speculate about diving, but none of us will ever know.
"Dr. Dirt"
Nitro Member
With the team car concept so popular these days is diving really any different than the team car blocking competitors by winning rounds against other team's points leaders?
I would fully expect to see some diving these last two races in T/F and F/C.
I would also not fault them one bit for so doing. This has been a long fought season and every point has been won with blood. Why throw all that away with an obvious gimmie offered by a team mate at a crucial point?
Just don't lie to us when we know darned well what's going on.
I would fully expect to see some diving these last two races in T/F and F/C.
I would also not fault them one bit for so doing. This has been a long fought season and every point has been won with blood. Why throw all that away with an obvious gimmie offered by a team mate at a crucial point?
Just don't lie to us when we know darned well what's going on.
scaryfordman
Nitro Member
I am not against team diving, not really.
I mean, I don't like to see an obvious dive, but I understand why they do it.
You know how NASCAR will have the fans vote on whether to iinvert the whole field, the first 10 cars, or whatever at the All star race at Charolette?
Maybe NHRA could do this........... for example, if 2 JFR cars are meeting in round 2 at Vegas next week, have the fans vote on whether to make the 2 drivers "swap" cars when they get to the lanes. And keep the vote results a secret. It's just crazy enough to work LOL
I mean, I don't like to see an obvious dive, but I understand why they do it.
You know how NASCAR will have the fans vote on whether to iinvert the whole field, the first 10 cars, or whatever at the All star race at Charolette?
Maybe NHRA could do this........... for example, if 2 JFR cars are meeting in round 2 at Vegas next week, have the fans vote on whether to make the 2 drivers "swap" cars when they get to the lanes. And keep the vote results a secret. It's just crazy enough to work LOL
There is a simple way to eliminate most of the diving. Just require team cars to be put on opposite sides of the ladder or in the case of 3 and 4 car teams in the top and bottom of the pairings sheet. If there are three team cars put the car with the highest point total in the left side and the two others in the top and bottom of the right side. With four (which is already too many although the rules allow it) highest two points cars go in the top and bottom of the left side and the other two go in the top and bottom of the right side. If the qualifying positions don't put the cars in these positions their position is modified by sliding them down the order until the above placement is achieved.
While the above doesn't eliminate all diving it sure does for three rounds with two cars, three rounds for one car with three and two rounds for the other two with three, and at least two rounds with four cars.
A similar system is used some other sports where two affiliated teams are entered in the same tournament. Most organizations however have enough sense not to allow more than two at any one time.
For those who think multi car teams are not a credibility problem for the fan base think again. All forms of motor sports recognize this as potential trouble. In drag racing it is worse as at least in other forms of motor racing there are other competitors to counteract blocking tactics. In drag racing you only have the diver and his teammate together in a single elimination competition.
I would also suggest to anyone who thinks the elimination of teams with three and four cars would somehow reduce fields to look back at the entry numbers over the years. While it is impossible to state with certainty that multi car teams have decreased the number of entries is is obvious this development has not resulted in an increase.
While the above doesn't eliminate all diving it sure does for three rounds with two cars, three rounds for one car with three and two rounds for the other two with three, and at least two rounds with four cars.
A similar system is used some other sports where two affiliated teams are entered in the same tournament. Most organizations however have enough sense not to allow more than two at any one time.
For those who think multi car teams are not a credibility problem for the fan base think again. All forms of motor sports recognize this as potential trouble. In drag racing it is worse as at least in other forms of motor racing there are other competitors to counteract blocking tactics. In drag racing you only have the diver and his teammate together in a single elimination competition.
I would also suggest to anyone who thinks the elimination of teams with three and four cars would somehow reduce fields to look back at the entry numbers over the years. While it is impossible to state with certainty that multi car teams have decreased the number of entries is is obvious this development has not resulted in an increase.
It's a fact of life - move on. It's very easy for a car to come up with a broken lifter or an oil leak that prevents one of two team cars from answering the call. The only way to prevent it is to ban team entries - and that's also unenforceable. Just look at the Schumacher "umbrella" which has several "independent" teams under it.
Rajunz
Nitro Member
This would kill Nitro Racing for two reasons...............
Without DSR, Force and Kalitta's having multi car teams, we would never see full fields, and if you open up the restriction on innovation, it would drive the cost of racing up so high, only a few teams would be able to afford to compete...............
Bullard Anderson
Nitro Member
It's going to take sponsors who aren't just happy being on the side of a car. It's going to take a sponsor stepping up to the plate and telling a team owner that if you don't race heads up, we're out of here. I suspect this has already happened in one team camp.
Hey LP,
I don't mean to hijack this thread but I posted a thread about Nitro Classes becoming too specialized which speaks to the very point you made.
It's the cost of racing that has created this situation, indirectly. In an old song there was a line "The Rich Get Richer and the Poor Get Poorer." which is eerily truthful about Nitro Racing.
Guys Like Zizzo do an awful lot considering the limitations the have to deal with (That's not a shot at you, Mr. Smith). There is only so much they can do, even with all the talent and potential there.
Unless there can be a field of 16 Independent and Competitive cars, the team diving thing will continue to exist, and that's a fact Jack.
If you want to see the big Numbers and Low Times, that's the price we'll have to pay.
