Should they give the PS more downforce??

[Dry Hop Doc]

They should just run them on a wire down the middle of the lane, kind of like the set up my old Cox .049 Pinto's and Vega's used to run on!

I had one of those! My gawd they were fun, weren't they?

I remember the time I decided to turn mine loose without the wire. It was a spectacular run ... until I realized I had no way to end it. The car found a way. Some freaking brick wall up and jumped in its path and spectacularly ended my CC career in a million pieces. I was devastated. My sponsors (parents) weren't willing to rebuild at the time. I still have the tool box I kept all the Pinto's parts in. Still got a shred or two of the body and a pair of tires too.

I've had one mother, three girlfriends, and one wife try and separate me from that box. If they didn't succeed surely no one will.

 

[Dave]

I don't have the memory I used to, but I thought last year, or the year before.. NHRA did mandate a new wicker on the front lip of the front end kind of like a NASCAR style splitter to add front downforce to the cars. Perhaps it's time to stick it out a little more than 1/8 or 1/4 of an inch? Then with the added front downforce for ALL cars competing, you have the option to match with additional rear downforce.

EDIT - it was 2010 likely after the issues at Firebird.

Page 15.1

DESIGNATION (3/1/10) (1st paragraph)

Minimum weight at conclusion of run: 2,350 pounds, including driver. Minimum weight on the rear axle at conclusion of run: 1,090 pounds, including driver.



The NHRA has also required the Pro Stock teams maintain a minimum rear weight on the car. This rule does not affect the 2,350 pound minimum weight for Pro Stock's, however, all Pro Stock's will be required to weigh a minimum 1,090 pounds on the rear. This will put a minimum 46% of the weight on the rear tires depending car styles & set-ups but the kicker will be the scales at each track, since we all know that the scales weigh the same at each track. The way this will be measured is after the total car is weighed for the 2350 minimum, the front tires will be rolled off the scales to see if the rear tire weight is above or equal to the 1090 minimum.

Page 15.7

BODY: 7 BODY (3/1/10) (2nd paragraph)

Front splitter mandatory, must attach to the lower Front fascia. Splitter must be constructed of aluminum, steel, or stainless steel with a minimum thickness of .050-inch and a maximum .060-inch. Any additional lips or flanges prohibited. Splitter must be flat and parallel to the front lip. Mounting of the splitter must be NHRA accepted. The 3/8-inch lip in the front will not be included in the front overhang measurement. Wicker height is 3/4-inch minimum and 1-inch maximum.


Both the splitter and wicker additions are expected to create more down force and will likely cause four-link and suspension changes needed to establish a new combination. What remains to be seen is whether the added rear weight will cause the cars to wheel stand like the days of old. Too high of a wheel stand for Pro Stocker can affect their ET's and consistency.

“The rear wicker bill went from 5/8ths to 3/4ths of an inch,” Coughlin said. “That might not sound like much but it makes a big difference. The air dam up front is like a little lip along the bottom of the nose of the car. It’s about 3/8ths of an inch, so it’s fairly big. That will keep the front end down, which will make it easier to steer these things. And the weight they added to the rear end will help keep the car planted on those big Goodyear’s.

 

[Bullet]

Out of all of those loose cars I believe Erica caught hers the earliest.

Vincent Nobile gave me a heart attack. That car had three opportunities to go around.

I say put a touch more (mandatory) front and rear downforce on them. If these guys have to run loose to win, like they do at the moement, they will.

 

[Demon]

Better track prep works too.In reality,NHRA should have not been so fast with trying to get the race done.I know they have TV to deal with,but at who's expense?? Pretty much this race was washed out...and what about having the other course prepped and ready to go??

 

[Gordon]

Not the first time more down force in PS has been mentioned. The damnable "skating" issue has reared its head before with similar results.

What to do?

As our resident hot shoe MM said, you can't dial all the risk out. It's racing, for gosh sakes. It's not supposed to be risk-free.

My opinion is once young Shane got out of the groove and into the snotty bits he was in over his head. He simply didn't recognize his peril 'til the car had already rotated out of his control.

He and his pops (and I love 'em both) flat out admitted it was driver error.

Witness D. Connolly's run just a few pair later where he had the same problem at the same point on the track. You can see him reel it in the instant the car stopped moving north to south. Saved the run ... saved the package.

Dave, without question, is a much more experienced driver.

I'm just glad Shane walked away without a scratch.

Well said, and I agree. Even Larry Morgan, who's definitely not afraid to throw NHRA under the bus said they had done just about all they could do.

Fortunately this issue only raises it's head every once in a blue moon, and when it does it always generates conversation, but in the end, if one chooses to compete in Pro Stock, one knows what one is getting into when the track isn't perfect.

Like everything else in life, experience counts... and there's only one way to gain it.

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

Great point. Whats the point of having two tracks, then not using it when the other became unsafe??

 

[Huge]

Great point. Whats the point of having two tracks, then not using it when the other became unsafe??

Maybe the other lanes were not any better.

 

[Muddy]

Pretty much this race was washed out...and what about having the other course prepped and ready to go??

What??? I thought it rained on the other track also...darn that Bruton Smith is a trickey old devil to be able to keep the rain off of the othr two lanes

 

[nick name]

...Like everything else in life, experience counts... and there's only one way to gain it.

I've seen some discussion of the grin on Warren's face in the shutdown area while Erica was unloading on the microphone about what she'd just gone through.

Considering it took 3 cars and a driving school to get his son in line, I'd say he was thinking, "Did you just about bust your butt? Welcome to Pro Stock. You're learning!"

It's interesting that those who enjoy making comments about her have been completely silent. She realized the problem, assessed her options, and chose the right one in an instant. Her performance was as good as Connelly's and that's a pretty good standard to be compared to.

The description of driving on ice applies in more than one way. Warren stated he thought the main reason that Kurt was having problems with a loose car was that he never drove a street car in Minnesota since the family had moved to Georgia by the time he got his license. WJ felt that the skills of driving on snow and ice transferred pretty directly to racing a Pro Stock.

As for using the other pair of lanes, if the problem was water/track temperature/lack of rubber the other lanes would have been even worse.

 

[Super Mod]

If the poor track conditions were to blame on the rain......why did the track conditions look so bad there when the ADRL ran Extreme Pro Stock there last month? Lots of aborted runs as I recall.

 

[Gordon]

It's interesting that those who enjoy making comments about her [Erica] have been completely silent. She realized the problem, assessed her options, and chose the right one in an instant. Her performance was as good as Connelly's and that's a pretty good standard to be compared to.

I agree 100% Dan, she did a phenomenal job controlling the car & I applauded her right away to my wife.

We saw the same thing a few years ago, I wanna say it was in Columbus, and everyone wanted more downforce then too. The fact is, when you order, build or buy a Pro Stock car, you know you're getting a race car with little to no downforce and you accept the risk that goes along with that decision. Shane pushed it too far, and thank God he's alright, but he learned a valuable lesson... similar to the lesson Erica learned very early in her Pro Stock career.

 

[Dave]

I think it really does boil down to track conditions and rain. These are just off the top of my head recently, perhaps others may remember more incidents. I really can't think of anything from 2011, but these seem like a lot of incidents over the past 3 years. Most appear to be cars going down a wet racetrack. Some are just a matter of track prep.

2009 - Pomona - Constant rain delays and when they finally get to Pro Stock David Beckly spins the tires hard off the line in the left lane and V. Gaines slips down the right lane shutting off early to the win, the very next pair KJ duplicates the left lane troubles and Johnny Gray takes a wild slide in the right lane, rain resumes and the race is called for the day.

POMONA 1 - Pro Stock Round 1 Eliminations

2009 - Atlanta - WJ vs Johnny Gray round 1 after a rain delay. Johnny Gray goes for another wild slide and WJ is loose in the other lane to a much lesser degree. Johnny is visibly angry getting out of the car and tells Gary Gerould "You don't want to interview me right now." Rain then resumes and the rest of round 1 is held off until later.

ATLANTA - Rain Delays Eliminations

ATLANTA - Pro Stock Round 1 Eliminations (Corrected)

2009 - Reading - The sun comes out and after a rainy week leading up to the race they make thru 5 pairs of cars in round 1 of Pro Stock. WJ blasts terrible track conditions after skating to the finish line against Larry Morgan. Makes comments that NHRA only cares about the .01% of the cars that make up the sport so the tracks spend money on sand traps instead of track surfaces.

Warren Johnson Gets angry Track Safety Reading PA. 2009 - YouTube

READING - Pro Stock Round 1 Eliminations

READING - Jeepers, Creepers...No Racing 'Cause of Weepers

2010 - Phoenix - Gordie Rivera and Vinny Deceglie both have nearly identical flips in the left lane. The rain comes in and delays sundays eliminations and after round 1 the Pro Stock class move the balance of their eliminations to Gainesville.

PHOENIX - Pro Stock Qualifying Notes, Session #2

PHOENIX - Pro Stock Qualifying Notes, Final Session

PHOENIX - Pro Stock to Finish in Gainesville

2010 - Seattle - Shane Gray defeats V. Gaines while both shut off after skating down an iffy track. WJ vs Ron Krisher are in the next pair and WJ gets loose then AGAIN blasts NHRA track prep and comments "Hell Ray Charles can drive one of those damn things" The rest of round 1 heads back to the pits.

Ron Kirsher Warren Johnsons Temper Flares Up Safety Pro Stock Round 1 Eliminations Northwest Nationals Seattle 2010 - YouTube

SEATTLE - Pro Stock Round 1 Eliminations

2012 - Charlotte - More rain causes Erica Enders to get loose and lose round 1 against WJ, Shane Gray isn't nearly as lucky as his dad on a wet track and wrecks, and Dave Connolly and Vincent Nobile skate to the finish line in their round 2 race.

What do you make of it? Just bad luck? Coincidence? Is Pro Stock that finicky of a class? Does NHRA really not care about them as some others stated? How do you come to a solution to balance it all out. (Please no "they're just filler anyways" replies! )

Also of note, the Mountain View Dodge was represented in the 2009 Pomona, 2010 Phoenix, and 2012 Charlotte incidents. WJ was in the 2009 Atlanta, 2009 Reading, and 2010 Seattle incidents (and 2012 Charlotte as a beneficiary), Johnny Gray had 2009 Pomona and Atlanta, Shane Gray had 2010 Seattle and 2012 Charlotte, and V. Gaines was involved in the 2009 Pomona and 2010 Seattle incidents. Weird how that works out with the same guys.

 

[Draw 3D]

I vote YES!!!

We need to do something.

Besides being a "fan", what other qualifications do you have to make rules to racers?

 

[Gordon]

I think it really does boil down to track conditions and rain. These are just off the top of my head recently, perhaps others may remember more incidents. I really can't think of anything from 2011, but these seem like a lot of incidents over the past 3 years. Most appear to be cars going down a wet racetrack. Some are just a matter of track prep.

2009 - Reading - The sun comes out and after a rainy week leading up to the race they make thru 5 pairs of cars in round 1 of Pro Stock. WJ blasts terrible track conditions after skating to the finish line against Larry Morgan. Makes comments that NHRA only cares about the .01% of the cars that make up the sport so the tracks spend money on sand traps instead of track surfaces.

What do you make of it? Just bad luck? Coincidence? Is Pro Stock that finicky of a class? Does NHRA really not care about them as some others stated? How do you come to a solution to balance it all out. (Please no "they're just filler anyways" replies! )

Disclaimer: I'm not a track prep specialist and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so the following comments are based solely on the observations of a lifelong fan with next to no "on-track" experience.

Lets talk about track prep vs. the .01%. If I were so inclined, I would spin that around on WJ and say, "Would you prefer NHRA spend all their time doing track prep for Pro Stock alone?" How many other classes, pro or sportsman, had issues with the track? Did any of the sportsman racers have issues? TAD or TAFC? Seriously, I don't know, did they? In fairness, TF & FC combined only represent a very small margin more than the PS contingent, so when they (PS) start asking for special treatment, in terms of track prep, then I have to wonder if they belong racing in a category that EVERYONE ON THE PLANET KNOWS HAS NEXT TO NO DOWNFORCE - IT'S NOT A SECRET, even on a good track, so yes, Pro Stock is that finicky. And may Lee Shepherd rest in God's eternal peace, but for WJ to say that track prep is more important than sand traps is selfish and one-sighted given the unfortunate tragedies in TF, FC, TAD & TAFC in the last decade.

There were race cars that made it down the track in Charlotte in both lanes. It rained - NHRA cannot control Mother Nature - if you're racing in Pro Stock, you know the track is going to be looser than normal... be prepared. Erica was. Dave was. Should football teams that play their home games in domes expect better field prep following rain at an away game outdoors? Of course not. Bad anology? Maybe, but the fact remains, PS has no downforce, so why is it NHRA's fault when the weather makes it diceier than usual?

Flame away...

 

[Dave]

Disclaimer: I'm not a track prep specialist and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so the following comments are based solely on the observations of a lifelong fan with next to no "on-track" experience.

Lets talk about track prep vs. the .01%. If I were so inclined, I would spin that around on WJ and say, "Would you prefer NHRA spend all their time doing track prep for Pro Stock alone?" How many other classes, pro or sportsman, had issues with the track? Did any of the sportsman racers have issues? TAD or TAFC? Seriously, I don't know, did they? In fairness, TF & FC combined only represent a very small margin more than the PS contingent, so when they (PS) start asking for special treatment, in terms of track prep, then I have to wonder if they belong racing in a category that EVERYONE ON THE PLANET KNOWS HAS NEXT TO NO DOWNFORCE - IT'S NOT A SECRET, even on a good track, so yes, Pro Stock is that finicky. And may Lee Shepherd rest in God's eternal peace, but for WJ to say that track prep is more important than sand traps is selfish and one-sighted given the unfortunate tragedies in TF, FC, TAD & TAFC in the last decade.

There were race cars that made it down the track in Charlotte in both lanes. It rained - NHRA cannot control Mother Nature - if you're racing in Pro Stock, you know the track is going to be looser than normal... be prepared. Erica was. Dave was. Should football teams that play their home games in domes expect better field prep following rain at an away game outdoors? Of course not. Bad anology? Maybe, but the fact remains, PS has no downforce, so why is it NHRA's fault when the weather makes it diceier than usual?

Flame away...

I'm not sure if you watched the attached video, but WJ wasn't saying track prep, he was more commenting on the weepers coming up thru the surface. Basically instead of investing money on a drainage system, Maple Grove Raceway had to use their funds to build a new sand trap in light of Scott Kalitta's death. Also he added NHRA should have slowed the fuel cars down way back in 04 or prior when things really started to get out of hand with them. Since they didn't, all tracks had to update the sand traps instead of make other needed improvements.

 

[d'kid]

Spot On Shipmate !!!!!


d'kid

 

[Gordon]

I'm not sure if you watched the attached video, but WJ wasn't saying track prep, he was more commenting on the weepers coming up thru the surface. Basically instead of investing money on a drainage system, Maple Grove Raceway had to use their funds to build a new sand trap in light of Scott Kalitta's death. Also he added NHRA should have slowed the fuel cars down way back in 04 or prior when things really started to get out of hand with them. Since they didn't, all tracks had to update the sand traps instead of make other needed improvements.

I didn't, but I saw it when he said it the first time.

And the weepers issue is valid, I guess, but NHRA is in a tough spot when faced with "slowing down the fuel cars. There's cost, a concern mostly for the low budget teams... and then there's keeping the "Big Dogs" out front in terms of performance. Given the performance of the TAD/TAFC classes, they can't slow down too much or they won't be the Kings anymore. And whether WJ likes it or not, Nitro sells tickets a lot more than PS does.

I love PS as much as the next fan, but the majority of casual fans are a lot more interested in fuel than they are in gasoline. But that's a different discussion for a different day.

 

[Dave]

Maybe, but the fact remains, PS has no downforce, so why is it NHRA's fault when the weather makes it diceier than usual?\

Well, NHRA makes the rules to govern the class. If they didn't want them to have no downforce, then make a change to the rulebook and solve the problem. NHRA can't control the weather, but they can sure control the cars that go down the racetrack.

 

[Gordon]

Well, NHRA makes the rules to govern the class. If they didn't want them to have no downforce, then make a change to the rulebook and solve the problem. NHRA can't control the weather, but they can sure control the cars that go down the racetrack.

I'll buy that, whether it slows the cars down or adds performance - as long as it's a fair modification across the PS board.

My argument was directed solely at the track prep conversation, but I think a fair solution is a chassis/body modification that adds downforce to all of the competitors.

 

[Dry Hop Doc]

I think it really does boil down to track conditions and rain. These are just off the top of my head recently, perhaps others may remember more incidents. I really can't think of anything from 2011, but these seem like a lot of incidents over the past 3 years. Most appear to be cars going down a wet racetrack. Some are just a matter of track prep.

2009 - Pomona - Constant rain delays and when they finally get to Pro Stock David Beckly spins the tires hard off the line in the left lane and V. Gaines slips down the right lane shutting off early to the win, the very next pair KJ duplicates the left lane troubles and Johnny Gray takes a wild slide in the right lane, rain resumes and the race is called for the day.

POMONA 1 - Pro Stock Round 1 Eliminations

2009 - Atlanta - WJ vs Johnny Gray round 1 after a rain delay. Johnny Gray goes for another wild slide and WJ is loose in the other lane to a much lesser degree. Johnny is visibly angry getting out of the car and tells Gary Gerould "You don't want to interview me right now." Rain then resumes and the rest of round 1 is held off until later.

ATLANTA - Rain Delays Eliminations

ATLANTA - Pro Stock Round 1 Eliminations (Corrected)

2009 - Reading - The sun comes out and after a rainy week leading up to the race they make thru 5 pairs of cars in round 1 of Pro Stock. WJ blasts terrible track conditions after skating to the finish line against Larry Morgan. Makes comments that NHRA only cares about the .01% of the cars that make up the sport so the tracks spend money on sand traps instead of track surfaces.

Warren Johnson Gets angry Track Safety Reading PA. 2009 - YouTube

READING - Pro Stock Round 1 Eliminations

READING - Jeepers, Creepers...No Racing 'Cause of Weepers

2010 - Phoenix - Gordie Rivera and Vinny Deceglie both have nearly identical flips in the left lane. The rain comes in and delays sundays eliminations and after round 1 the Pro Stock class move the balance of their eliminations to Gainesville.

PHOENIX - Pro Stock Qualifying Notes, Session #2

PHOENIX - Pro Stock Qualifying Notes, Final Session

PHOENIX - Pro Stock to Finish in Gainesville

2010 - Seattle - Shane Gray defeats V. Gaines while both shut off after skating down an iffy track. WJ vs Ron Krisher are in the next pair and WJ gets loose then AGAIN blasts NHRA track prep and comments "Hell Ray Charles can drive one of those damn things" The rest of round 1 heads back to the pits.

Ron Kirsher Warren Johnsons Temper Flares Up Safety Pro Stock Round 1 Eliminations Northwest Nationals Seattle 2010 - YouTube

SEATTLE - Pro Stock Round 1 Eliminations

2012 - Charlotte - More rain causes Erica Enders to get loose and lose round 1 against WJ, Shane Gray isn't nearly as lucky as his dad on a wet track and wrecks, and Dave Connolly and Vincent Nobile skate to the finish line in their round 2 race.

What do you make of it? Just bad luck? Coincidence? Is Pro Stock that finicky of a class? Does NHRA really not care about them as some others stated? How do you come to a solution to balance it all out. (Please no "they're just filler anyways" replies! )

Also of note, the Mountain View Dodge was represented in the 2009 Pomona, 2010 Phoenix, and 2012 Charlotte incidents. WJ was in the 2009 Atlanta, 2009 Reading, and 2010 Seattle incidents (and 2012 Charlotte as a beneficiary), Johnny Gray had 2009 Pomona and Atlanta, Shane Gray had 2010 Seattle and 2012 Charlotte, and V. Gaines was involved in the 2009 Pomona and 2010 Seattle incidents. Weird how that works out with the same guys.

May I be the first to say that your in-depth research frankly scares me. It's not the sign of a sober drag racing mind. And second, might I be the first 'Mater to call you by your new sobriquet? "Grassy Knoll Dave."