How long will it be before somebody is KILLED??? (1 Viewer)

[FC138fan]

a whole list of injuries that can happen to people out there.

Couple of things to think about -

1) How great is the risk?
2) What are the potntial consequences if the problem occurs?
3) How to you eliminate the risk?
4) How difficult is it to implement the solution? Can you enforce the rule?
5) What are the consequences of the solution?

For this particular risk:

1) Not sure (my personal opinion low risk)
2) (Potentially) serious injury or death
3) Implement rule "A vehicle must perform entire run (including burnout) under it's own power" (is this so unreasonable?)
4) Not difficult, put it in the rule book. If a person pushes the car, the rule is violated - run disqualified.
5) Not sure - listening to previous posts, AJ's clutch parts would have to be modified, might hurt performance. (how long would it take for them to figure out how to fix those parts to work with the rules?)

You can be a better judge if implementing a rule is worth it if you knew all the answers to the above questions. In this case it seems to me the rule would be worth it.

Another example: No fans in the pits because they could get run over by a car falling off the jack

1) Not sure (probably low risk?)
2) Serious injury or death
3) Ban spectators from the pits.
4) You must change the layout of most/all tracks to keep spectators out of the pits. This costs money. Increased security - more money.
5) Completely change the NHRA expierence. Reduced attendance. Reduced sponsor interest.

Balancing safety with the fundamentals of the sport is difficult (ask whoever had to implement the 1000' rule). But for this thread maybe a rule isn't a bad idea.

 

[Scott Gaulter]

I'm pretty careful about getting involved with the controversial stuff on the racing message boards - always many sides to the issues....maybe the pro teams can handle themselves on the starting line (I still think that it's a bad place for all of the crew members that are not necessary to running the car) but we race with a bunch of nostalgia groups and teams. Most of them have volunteer help that consist of friends and neighbors. Some are very skilled and have been around drag racing and some are novices - one thing is constant - emotions are running high and the whole team is having an adrenaline rush when the car is being started & staged. The starting line is the most dangerous place in drag racing. The driver is the safest guy on the team with all of the safety gear and fire suit. Sometimes the new crew guys get pretty excited....

We had a starting line accident a few years ago....the throttle controller malfunctioned and the car lunged forward running over Larry - and he was just in front of the rear tire....torn ACL in his knee and is fine now....but the routine of having Larry and Rapid (driver) knock fists before the run was uncalled for and unnecessary. Our team had done this from the beginning and never really stopped to figure out why. We all stay away from the car on the line now...and the driver does not move the car an inch until he is given the "all clear" signal to roll into the water.

No matter what your opinion is on the pro teams being close to the cars - please take a few minutes and have safety meetings with you team....just to go over anything that could happen around the car in the pit area or starting line. Let them know how dangerous the starting line is and that the minimal amount of crew members on the line is the best policy.

Rant over...

 

[Dave]

This is absolutely insane. I don't have all the answers, I don't pretend to have all the answers, hell I don't even want to have all the answers.

My last post was a bit of sarcasm, in case anybody missed it. I'm not some dumb beer swilling fan who goes to one event and thinks they know it all. I've been around Racing for a long time, OK. I was a crew member on a National Championship winning Race Team. I used to be a part owner of a Top Fuel Dragster. Yes, the car was a turd and the team was a joke, but it was still mine.

I've seen a lot of sh*t happen at race tracks and from time to time I have voiced my opinion on some things that I didn't think were safe. A little over ten years ago, I saw somebody get killed when a Pro Mod went over the guardrail and hit a photographer. I almost got killed as well when one of the rear wheels broke off of the car and came bouncing after me while I was running for my life up the return road. This photographer was standing right next to the guardrail when the accident happened. My point is things CAN happen. Obviously nothing in Racing is fool proof safe, but when something looks plain as day unsafe?

When I started this thread I never dreamed it would generate all of the hatred and evel feelings that it has. I should have know better, I forgot this was Nitromater. You know the place, where there are very strict rules about voicing your opinion. Like I always seem to say when these discussuins explode on this wesite, everybody has a right to their opinion. However, just because some people do not share the same opinion, the is no need for all of the bitterness.

It's no wonder why this place has gotten so dead over the last few months. Nobody wants to open their mouths about anything because they are afraid to get their ass ripped like has happened to me.

All I was trying to do was point out something that looked unsafe in my eyes. Since the experts here have ruled this issue a non-issue, I'm forced to let it be. In the future If I have a suggestion for NHRA, I will call Graham Light directly and share my opinions. After all, he did fix another concern of mine after Graham and I discussed it while we were in one of the Corporate Suites at Indy a few years ago.

Dave

 

[Dave]

I'm pretty careful about getting involved with the controversial stuff on the racing message boards - always many sides to the issues....maybe the pro teams can handle themselves on the starting line (I still think that it's a bad place for all of the crew members that are not necessary to running the car) but we race with a bunch of nostalgia groups and teams. Most of them have volunteer help that consist of friends and neighbors. Some are very skilled and have been around drag racing and some are novices - one thing is constant - emotions are running high and the whole team is having an adrenaline rush when the car is being started & staged. The starting line is the most dangerous place in drag racing. The driver is the safest guy on the team with all of the safety gear and fire suit. Sometimes the new crew guys get pretty excited....

We had a starting line accident a few years ago....the throttle controller malfunctioned and the car lunged forward running over Larry - and he was just in front of the rear tire....torn ACL in his knee and is fine now....but the routine of having Larry and Rapid (driver) knock fists before the run was uncalled for and unnecessary. Our team had done this from the beginning and never really stopped to figure out why. We all stay away from the car on the line now...and the driver does not move the car an inch until he is given the "all clear" signal to roll into the water.

No matter what your opinion is on the pro teams being close to the cars - please take a few minutes and have safety meetings with you team....just to go over anything that could happen around the car in the pit area or starting line. Let them know how dangerous the starting line is and that the minimal amount of crew members on the line is the best policy.

Rant over...

Very, very wise post, Scott. Good stuff. Thank you

Dave

 

[clwill]

I think like so many things on the internet, where nuance of expression is nonexistent, this topic has polarized people to either one side of the other. Like most things, the reality is somewhere in the middle, and I'm not sure any of the people posting at the extreme really mean to come off sounding so dramatic.

The real question is a risk tradeoff, a cost/benefit analysis, as Nick describes above. Is going 300+ in less than 5 seconds dangerous? You bet. Is it cool, exciting, fun? Sure. Can we minimize the danger with some reasonable tradeoffs? Let's do them.

All the safety gear on cars has made the two most dangerous things starting and stopping them (just like with airplanes). After tragedy, we've seen efforts to make the stopping part safer, and there will be more.

The starting part remains a pretty dicey thing, though. Lots of people around, very volatile processes just starting up, adrenaline pumping wildly, and so on. Seems to me that the first rule of workplace safety is "keep away from danger", and is there anything more dangerous than a nitro car under power? So maybe NHRA should look at the circus on the starting line.

Still, after several decades of this sport, any objective observer has to say the sport's pretty safe, for being as "on the edge" as it is. Otherwise, there'd be no sport -- no insurance company would cover it.

So perhaps we need to keep the discourse a little more civil, and explore Dave's overall query about safety on the starting line.

I mean, come on, as just one example, is there anyone who really thinks the whole "bullfighter" dodge before the burnout by so many pro-stock teams is necessary, and isn't a tragedy waiting to happen?

 

[Treeshaker]

We are discussing implementing a rule that professional teams cannot push their cars while started, aren't we?

Not one of the five incidents that have been cited would have been avoided by a "non car pushing" rule. NOT ONE.

It was stated that it was OK to adjust the BV and slide valve (don't know who would do this at the line) because the driver has his/her foot on the clutch and the brake on. Well, both Kenny and Tony were in this position when their problems occurred. Don't know about Joe/Tim, and Randy must have relaxed/lost his grip of the brake in his Torque Converter equiped car when he did the fist bump. How do these relate to pushing a running nitro car?

Pushing running fuel cars has been around as long as fuel cars, and I challenge anyone to come up with an example of someone being injured while pushing. I am not saying something will never happen, just that it hasn't in the past, the likelyhood is slim in the future and the rule would be absurd to impose on these professional teams.

Dave - I don't think anyone "jumped" on you except to say they are on the other side of the issue. The sarcasm read more like a tantrum.

Scott - I don't know of any professional teams that implement a plan of action without going over proceedures and safety with everyone involved. Even when you are using volunteers and newbies, they need to be instructed on where to stand, what they can and cannot do while in the pits and on the starting line.

 

[Rajunz]

This is a dumb topic. EVERYONE involved with going to the starting line know very well this can be a DANGEROUS PLACE but here we are talking about it again trying to childproof arming a 300 mph missle that is 7000 horsepower.

Scott - I don't know of any professional teams that implement a plan of action without going over proceedures and safety with everyone involved. Even when you are using volunteers and newbies, they need to be instructed on where to stand, what they can and cannot do while in the pits and on the starting line.

Two awesome quotes when you think about it...............................Rocket Sceintists designed missles, very well educated people launch them..................

Crew Chiefs are probably smarter than alot of Rocket Sceintists, very well educated people launch them too..................

 

[TSK]

The guys standing in front of a pro stock doing a burnout should be run over. How stupid do you have to be to stand in front of a 1400 horsepower car that has its clutch engaged?
What happens if the line lock fails or the driver's finger slips off the button? Ol' Bubba isn't going to be able to move fast enough to get out of the way.
Shoot, I helped Tommy Ivo in 1973 when he was at a match race against Don Garlits at Carlisle Drag-O-Way in east-central Arkansas. That was before anybody had reversers.
I helped push the car back after the burnouts. Was it dangerous? Probably. But, was it a huge adrenaline rush? Most definitely, and I would do it again today if asked.
What scares me more than anything is the possibility of a repeat of what happened to Shelly Howard at Tulsa in 2005.
Had that same incident happened at a track like Bandimere or Ennis, where there is a long line of cars and crew directly behind the starting line, the death toll would have been horrendous.
But, back to the original post, the starting line area at National Events is too crowded. It wouldn't bother me if NHRA told people that once the car starts, everybody is to stand to the side and not touch the car while the engine is running.

 

[.]

If NHRA did implement a rule like what has been suggested "Dim" Light would be roasted for it here.

 

[Muddy]

Following this line of reasoning to its final conclusion would eliminate pit stops in NASCAR, INDY cars etc. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Wonder how many passes down a drag strip have been made after a crew member touched the car. I'd guess the ratio of injuries to passes has to be something like .000001% but that's only a guess.

I would suggest there are many items that deserve consideration but this isn't one of them.

 

[Shaggy]

... and Randy must have relaxed/lost his grip of the brake in his Torque Converter equiped car when he did the fist bump.

Did you not read where Scott said it was a part failure?

....the throttle controller malfunctioned and the car lunged forward running over Larry

 

[sammi]

Please accept my public apology for my previous inappropriate remark. There is no excuse for lack of civility.

Mark

 

[Treeshaker]

We had a starting line accident a few years ago....the throttle controller malfunctioned and the car lunged forward running over Larry - and he was just in front of the rear tire....torn ACL in his knee and is fine now....

Rant over...

No I missed this. Would a "no pushing the car" rule have prevented this injury?

But now I need help, because the only throttle controller I know of that will make a car launch forward, especially on a nitro car, is the driver's foot. I am being serious here, is there a device that when it malfunctions it makes the throttle go towards the open position? It seems a device such as this needs more rules than professional crew persons pushing a running car.

And there is very little "adreneline rush" with today's full time touring crewmembers. They do this as a job 7 days a week. They start and work around a running car a lot during a race weekend, and they have a minimum of 26 races a year. And the few teams who are pushing their cars are some of the most experienced.

I thought this thread was started as a plea to save top fuel crewmembers from putting themselves in harms way by hand pushing their cars? That there was at least one death waiting if the practice isn't stopped? The only relevent reason given for having a rule is that it looks dangerous to some when watched on TV. Here is some information why the practice is being conducted safely:

1. The cars being pushed will not move without hitting the throttle or overcentering the clutch when the clutch is cold.
2. There is a person in front of the car who signals the driver when to hit the throttle, and he/she makes sure the crewmembers are cleared.
3. Sometimes the clutch does not get hot enough on the burnout for the car to move after backing up, so rather than overcenter the clutch or hit the throttle slightly, the crew will assist the car towards the line. Once forward the crew chief will adjust the idle to load the clutch and then the car can move on it's own.

The short throw of the throttle pedal on these cars makes it very difficult to give just a little throttle and keep it under control. And the rule book says all cars will have a clutch pedal stop that is properly adjusted to keep the driver from overcentering the clutch.

 

[FuelFC]

The starting line is the most dangerous place in drag racing.

Oh I am not so sure about that. You obviously never worked at "Camp Happy" with Atomic Al (RIP).

We akmost killed a now pretty decent crew chief servicing the car taking out the motor. When he was unexpectedly El Kabonged when the huge breaker bar broke busting out the welded flywheel nuts and studs and it clocked him right between the eyes.

Got hit by the infamous flying nitrous err un-named subdstance container from a P/S car.

Brekke was at our place more than the rest of the teams combined it seemed most of the year.

Virgil kudos to the restraint and very detailed straight out answers.

(Sorry Scott just had to or I was going to have to set up the popcorn stand.)

 

[Toejam]

The incidents you have mentioned should not have happened. Herb was doing something unusual with his back to the car out of sight of the crew person guiding the car back. Tony's was because of a bad choice of equipment that was changed before the next run. Kenny was upset because HE made an error. And you don't even know what happened with Joe/Tim. How many runs have been made since organized drag racing started, and there have been this few of incidents? A pretty good track record in my book.

Anyone Remember back in the 90's when Jim Dunn had Mooneyes, John Dunn wasn't paying attention and Kenji caught him in the leg with his Wheely-bar backing up from his burnout??? That was Scary, it even caught Buster Couch by suprise!

 

[PJ]

you guys are right lets not think what might happen, no sense trying to make anything better or safer. Lets take down those fancy new nets and barriers like at E-town afterall we've only had one incident.....

I'm not saying we need to stop touching the cars but there is nothing wrong with the conversation. How many times has everyone realized how dumb something was after the fact? Just look at the Pro Mod burnout in the streets. years of fun until Troy's accident then everyone screamed why.


Why put the burst panel, or auto chutes deployment on cars. No need for fire bottles afterall we all know the dangers right? I think its an acceptable risk to push the cars or lift the bodies but I also don't think the conversation needs to be belittled or the classic well everythings dangerous blah blah blah


I don't like the matador pro stock burnout move. Just one tire grabbing too soon and.....

 

[RAPID]

Sorry in advance for the "Sorta" off topic post. But since there seems to be some question about it. Yes, on Scott's car we used an air cyl, imagine a super class type throttle controller, to hold the staged RPM when the trans-brake was activated. It was armed with a separate switch as well. With the trans-brake on the Lenco-drive engaged, the cyl would only let the injector open to approx 3000 rpm, with my foot to the floor. With it engaged, without my foot on the throttle, the car would just stay at idle. I had to press on the throttle to reach launch RPM.

Something malfunctioned, my foot was not pressing on the throttle, and the car did a dry hop type launch on it's own. Something caused a short, a spike, whatever, that made it happen. We were unable to duplicate the problem in the pits the next time we fired the car.

Unfortunately, my friend Larry was just backing away from the car and the slick got him. Two things came out of it, #1. We didn't use the throttle controller the rest of the season as there was "No Explaination" as to why it did that. #2. We all agreed there was no point to having Larry and I having a final OK to stage signal that involved him being near the car.

Our team was very safety oriented, but accidents can and do happen. There is nobody I would rate higher than Scott Gaulter at checking things over on the car week in and week out to make sure I am getting into a safe racecar.

Back to the "No Pushing the Cars Rule" discussion. Thanks for listening

Rapid

 

[Bross Hawg]

1. The cars being pushed will not move without hitting the throttle or overcentering the clutch when the clutch is cold.
2. There is a person in front of the car who signals the driver when to hit the throttle, and he/she makes sure the crewmembers are cleared.
3. Sometimes the clutch does not get hot enough on the burnout for the car to move after backing up, so rather than overcenter the clutch or hit the throttle slightly, the crew will assist the car towards the line. Once forward the crew chief will adjust the idle to load the clutch and then the car can move on it's own.

The short throw of the throttle pedal on these cars makes it very difficult to give just a little throttle and keep it under control. And the rule book says all cars will have a clutch pedal stop that is properly adjusted to keep the driver from overcentering the clutch.

Maybe things have changed a little in the 3 years since I have done clutch on a fuel car, but can you explain to me how the car will not move with a "cold" clutch if it is applied? If the clutch is adjusted correctly, @ say .045" or .050" pack clearance, I am sorry, but if you let off the clutch pedal and let go of the brake, it is going to move the car. Now, if it is not adjusted correctly, I could see it being a problem, but why is it sent to the starting line not correct? If it is set to tight, or there is not enough pedal for neutral, or there is too much pedal and it is overcentering the clutch, it will not go into reverse. Are you not running hardly any weight on the clutch, so it does not have much clamp load at idle speed? I am not trying to show up a crew chief, I am just curious if you can do a better job of explaining those comments to me, because I would like to think I have a pretty good idea of how a clutch system works on a fuel car. Thank you.

 

[Treeshaker]

Maybe things have changed a little in the 3 years since I have done clutch on a fuel car, but can you explain to me how the car will not move with a "cold" clutch if it is applied? If the clutch is adjusted correctly, @ say .045" or .050" pack clearance, I am sorry, but if you let off the clutch pedal and let go of the brake, it is going to move the car. Now, if it is not adjusted correctly, I could see it being a problem, but why is it sent to the starting line not correct? If it is set to tight, or there is not enough pedal for neutral, or there is too much pedal and it is overcentering the clutch, it will not go into reverse. Are you not running hardly any weight on the clutch, so it does not have much clamp load at idle speed? I am not trying to show up a crew chief, I am just curious if you can do a better job of explaining those comments to me, because I would like to think I have a pretty good idea of how a clutch system works on a fuel car. Thank you.

Please understand that this is not the way I run my car or clutches. We have never pushed our cars after starting. This is someone else's set up and a proceedure they are using, and I feel since they have shown they are doing it safely, they should have the right to do it their way with their car.

Alan's clutch set up only uses 5 primary levers with a unique radius system and a minimal amount of weight. It is not my place to give actual numbers and set ups. The burnout proceedure puts heat into the clutch and the rate of expansion of the discs and floaters is greater than the titanium stands which closes the clutch gap. Sometimes a little too much stall spring (and with the lack of fingers and weight is touchy) the gap isn't closed enough on the burnout and the car needs to be helped towards the starting line. It is critical for the gap to be consistent, as a .005" difference in gap changes the lever's tip approximately .021" creating lever angle. Lever angle changes leverage of the lever, which changes the characteristics of the clutch. Same goes for clutch wear. The safety record for the 3 years this has been going on is perfect and the performances and consistency of the cars using this system speaks for itself.

As far as the pro stock deal, I am sure the people doing it understand the where's and why's of the proceedure, and again, for the thousands of runs that it has been taking place, their safety record is perfect. It is not my place to dictate to these professionals how they should do their job when they have shown that what they are doing, they can do safely, time after time.

Randy - I am not saying Scott did anything wrong, or is not safety consious. I feel that anything attached to the throttle that can open the throttle during a malfunction should be redesigned or banned from use entirely. I was not aware of anything that would do this, as I am sure Scott wasn't either. The cars in question in this topic have no such device, and the last thing in line is a heavy spring that closes the throttle in case of any linkage malfunction.

Basically all I am saying is that if you want to call for another safety rule, show just cause with facts that are relevent why the rule should be implemented. I am trying to show with facts why I feel the rules being called for are not needed. And other rules or situations are not relevent to the situations that rules are being called to ban.

 

[Scott Gaulter]

YouTube - Fuel altered uh-oh

YouTube - Outlaw Fuel Altered Crash

Maybe these videos should be moved to the nostalgia section or sportsman section as they are not directly related to the original post about the pro teams crew on the starting line...I'm just trying to make a point on starting lane safety overall...

Rant really over now...