What would happen if NHRA allowed more engines? (1 Viewer)

[Taunsie]

Guess NHRA just wants to see how long they can keep the Chrysler HEMI , going, considering it is based on a 1963 block,

The mags are hanging out there in the breeze on a spindle

The bore centers insure that a solid crankshaft can not be made.

Let's also mention what a great idea it is to drive an overdriven supercharger off the front snout of the crank, this end of the crank ( and front main) was designed to spin a water pump and generator.

Some innovators, such a Nick Arias, Joe Schubeck and other have created replacement engines that eliminate most of the weak links of the old Mo Par standard.

Sure it would take some development money to prove the concepts, and it would take a couple of years for the teams to convert to the new combos.

In the long run the competitors would have a safer, more dependable and less expensive power plant.

It is too bad that there is not a optional place to compete.

Maybe Force should demand that he is allowed to run a Ford engine or he may have to leave as Ford is tired of supporting a Chrysler format.

DSR could partner with others and develop a counter engine.

500 inches or whatever , bring on the innovations, and give the fans
something to rave about.

 

[Bill]

Guess NHRA just wants to see how long they can keep the Chrysler HEMI , going, considering it is based on a 1963 block,

The mags are hanging out there in the breeze on a spindle

The bore centers insure that a solid crankshaft can not be made.

Let's also mention what a great idea it is to drive an overdriven supercharger off the front snout of the crank, this end of the crank ( and front main) was designed to spin a water pump and generator.

Some innovators, such a Nick Arias, Joe Schubeck and other have created replacement engines that eliminate most of the weak links of the old Mo Par standard.

Sure it would take some development money to prove the concepts, and it would take a couple of years for the teams to convert to the new combos.

In the long run the competitors would have a safer, more dependable and less expensive power plant.

It is too bad that there is not a optional place to compete.

Maybe Force should demand that he is allowed to run a Ford engine or he may have to leave as Ford is tired of supporting a Chrysler format.

DSR could partner with others and develop a counter engine.

500 inches or whatever , bring on the innovations, and give the fans
something to rave about.

EXCELLENT POST!!! Thanks for those illuminating and educational thoughts.

Post of the month.... in my book.

 

[Mooseman]

I am a huge hemi fan , but I am also a huge supporter of innovation , though I feel the need to comment on people saying that nhra specifically banned the 427 sohc , now the 427 sohc came out in the mid 60's nhra placced the ban on multi valve over head cam in the mid to late 90's now unless there was someone trying to run a 427 sohc in nhra in the 90's then I wouldnt say they banned that engine specifically but more it came under the catagory that the banned engines came under . The hemi's in nitro competition have been the main engines from the 50's untill today now up until the ban there were many many many years to try and make another engine work but none of them seriously took over and rained supreme .

As much as a hemi fan as I am I think the other engine attempts are really awesome but an interesting question is back before the ban why over all those years must of been a 30-40 year period did hemi work over all the other engines .

 

[yoda]

Guess NHRA just wants to see how long they can keep the Chrysler HEMI , going, considering it is based on a 1963 block,

The mags are hanging out there in the breeze on a spindle

The bore centers insure that a solid crankshaft can not be made.

Let's also mention what a great idea it is to drive an overdriven supercharger off the front snout of the crank, this end of the crank ( and front main) was designed to spin a water pump and generator.

Some innovators, such a Nick Arias, Joe Schubeck and other have created replacement engines that eliminate most of the weak links of the old Mo Par standard.

Sure it would take some development money to prove the concepts, and it would take a couple of years for the teams to convert to the new combos.

In the long run the competitors would have a safer, more dependable and less expensive power plant.

It is too bad that there is not a optional place to compete.

Maybe Force should demand that he is allowed to run a Ford engine or he may have to leave as Ford is tired of supporting a Chrysler format.

DSR could partner with others and develop a counter engine.

500 inches or whatever , bring on the innovations, and give the fans
something to rave about.

Take a Chrysler Service Manager or Parts guy to their first race, and watch the REALLY confused look when you tell them an AJPE is a Chrysler Hemi....

Nitro HEMI and stock Hemi- Apples and grapes...

 

[Mooseman]

Take a Chrysler Service Manager or Parts guy to their first race, and watch the REALLY confused look when you tell them an AJPE is a Chrysler Hemi....

Nitro HEMI and stock Hemi- Apples and grapes...

Ok then whats really different between the to then and what makes an aftermarket chrysler so different then an aftermarket chev or ford . There are plenty of chevs and fords out there built without factory parts . Whats so different then , raised cam? deck hight? the block being solid? If I am not mistaken you can go out and buy a chevy block with all those options and people still call them chevs so what makes the hemi used in nitro racing not a chrysler? Sure the TFX has a different timing cover and sump bolt pattern then factory but I continue all the time to hear people say that they arent chrylsers because they dont use factory parts , well how come a chev built using parts from brodix or dart is still a chev?

 

[Mooseman]

Apparently if you inlarge the head blot holes on a stock chrysler hemi head to fit the studs of a tfx or brad anderson keith black or whatever then a stock hemi head will slide right onto those blocks . I don't see why that wouldnt work because for intents and purposes those blocks are just chrysler based engines with improvement and modifications and there are plenty of chev blocks for sale out there which give you heaps of options and choices that you wouldnt get from the factory .

If I am wrong or missinformed in anything I have said then please someone with the knowledge and experiance to know please correct me because im no expert .

 

[Mooseman]

I'm not claiming to be an expert or even correct for that matter , I just see people with chevs and fords that are about as factory as a top fuel engine and people still call them fords and chevys , so what makes the top fuel engine different . Even Alan Johnson advertises his top fuel parts as chrysler parts .

AJPE

 

[yoda]

I think you're missing the foundation of the principal William- every manufacturer's motor is designed to a certain propriatary specification. If the motor is attempting to stay within those boundaries to retain its particular branding, it will never withstand the violence of nitro racing. Hence why racers no longer pull a motor out of a street car, no matter if it is a new Hemi or a vintage Cammer, and attempt to go fuel racing.

Retaining those engineering features that makes a Chevy a Chevy, a Ford a Ford or a Chrysler a Chrysler is about what the company initially designs for its factory motor- bore spacing and cylinder head/ valve configuration is part of what the rule makers are basing the modified full-race motor rules on. At the moment, the only motor that meets the standard put forth by the Association is also the motor that has proven itself over the years to be the most efficient at making the necessary power is the Chrysler- Based design.

Every manufacturer over the years created "a better mousetrap", but in the long run, through rulings and tooling, the Hemi has ultimately won out. How much does politics play into this? Probably a huge amount. History comes into play as well. When NASCAR outlawed the 426 Hemi for competition, it immediatly found a home in NHRA as the foundation motor. The coincidence of the timing does appear both odd and logical- at the time, the Chrysler had three generations of proving its engineering values. The closest competitor at the time was the Ford big block, and it would have been considered the "new" technology, with a minimal track record for the design. Were there meetings in smoke-filled rooms to muscle the other manufacturers out? I don't know anyone that would admit that. But the ability to have one of the Big Three dedicate it's newest and most powerful technology almost exclusively to your Association's most visible eliminators, with the exchange being a constant marketing reminder that nitro winners have Hemis 95% of the time has to had some sort of benifits for both manufacturer and sanctioning body.

Have there been better, more technically efficient motors built over the years? Absolutely. Did they meet the letter of the law? Right up until the law was changed, they did. Do we know why the rules were changed? And did that have anything to do with Chrysler's history in the nitro classes and the Association? Good question. And the fact that every modern nitro powerplant is an aftermarket product (or in the case of some of the nostalgia series cars, a majority of aftermarket parts) that the manufacturers choose to base off the tried-and-true (and rulebook-legal) Chrysler product (with the addition of increased stregnth in areas that would never need to be included in the factory product), is both a travesty (for this sport loses its engineering heritage for the most part in its premier classes) and a blessing, as continuity has allowed costs to more or less remain under control for the basic product of blocks and heads.

 

[Mooseman]

If I was in a position where I had the skills and money to build a motor I would love to carry on where chrysler started with their quad cam hemi they designed and tested in the 60's but never put into mass production .

 

[yoda]

If I was in a position where I had the skills and money to build a motor I would love to carry on where chrysler started with their quad cam hemi they designed and tested in the 60's but never put into mass production .

But why? To spend all that capital only to have the thing outlawed makes no sense...
It's a lot more than just making an engine that is technically superior- its making that technology available to every other car in the eliminator at a cost that is in line with the overall expense of competing in the class. Sucks, but it is just a fact of life these days.
Take what is available today as your base product and work on things like fuel management, clutch management, induction- make the better mousetrap that way. Building a whole new package only makes sense if you were heading out to the salt...

BTW- a bit of history of the Chrysler superiority: At the 1966 Fuel and Gas Championship in Bakersfield, 100 Top Fuel cars showed up for 64 slots. Of those 64, 53 were Chrysler Hemis, 2 were Ford OHC and 4 were Chevys. This is when the rules WERE liberal enough to build what you wanted to and race it. And still, the majority of the sucessful diggers ran what worked- and it still does to this day.

 

[Mooseman]

Why? because you could . Sure may be not allowed in drag racing but theres allways land speed records .

 

[yoda]

Why? because you could . Sure may be not allowed in drag racing but theres allways land speed records .

NOW your getting it

Go gett'um, kid!

 

[john]

Guess NHRA just wants to see how long they can keep the Chrysler HEMI , going, considering it is based on a 1963 block,

The block was designed in '57, the heads were in '63. It works, that's why it's King.

 

[Bill]

The block was designed in '57, the heads were in '63. It works, that's why it's King.

I'm not so sure that it's King because it works, or if it's King because eveything tht could outrun it got outlawed before they could prove their mettle.


Just think, if the 4-valve McGee or Eagle motors were still racing Top Fuel and F/C, and had 1/5th the R & D time the Hemi has enjoyed, how fast they might be...

I think it's an interesting question. 4-valve cylinder-filling is hard to beat...

 

[Mooseman]

Heres quite a good article about the history of the Mcgee engine

McGee Cams Brief History

 

[Paul]

Heres quite a good article about the history of the Mcgee engine

McGee Cams Brief History

I was always a big fan of the McGee brothers and their engine and the race team they had with Gary Beck, and I was lucky enough to see them run a few times out here on the west coast.

One of the brothers went out of his way to give me some advice when I started my company and I've always appreciated that.

Of course, one piece of his advice I just had to go against one time, the advice was- "Don't give any products away for free, it doesn't pay" and I had to find out the hard way that he was dead right about that.

 

[john]

Just think, if the 4-valve McGee or Eagle motors were still racing Top Fuel and F/C, and had 1/5th the R & D time the Hemi has enjoyed, how fast they might be...

They can't put the power they have to the ground now and everyone wants to slow the cars down because they are going to fast. Sounds like NHRA saved everyone a ton of money from being wasted. We've heard about the horrible valve train, mags in the wind, yada yada yada. It makes huge power, its reliable and cost effective, there were plenty of other players in the sandbox. They all came and went, none were a threat. NHRA just crowned what it was with the ban.

 

[Bill]

They all came and went, none were a threat. NHRA just crowned what it was with the ban.

So, if an engine enjoys irrefutable performance superiority, why would it be necessary to ban others? Water seeks its own level in a case like this.

I'm not convinced that the Mopar Hemi was unbeatable; very good, but not unbeatable.

If it was unbeatable, a ban agaisnt other designs would be redundant.

Think about it...

 

[FuelFan13]

So, if an engine enjoys irrefutable performance superiority, why would it be necessary to ban others? Water seeks its own level in a case like this.

I'm not convinced that the Mopar Hemi was unbeatable; very good, but not unbeatable.

If it was unbeatable, a ban agaisnt other designs would be redundant.

Think about it...

We had come from a fairly successful background in oval track. After witnessing our first Top Fuel race we came away with the opinion that “these are the most awesome cars on the planet”
It was only natural, with a background racing overhead cam engines (our dad was the Meyer Drake “Offy” distributor in Australia), to ask the question why hasn’t someone done this before?

The first version of the engine was very much like an Offy with integral blocks and heads. Although powerful and strong it was very difficult to work on. In 1986 the motor was redesigned to a more conventional configuration and was actually faster to service than a Chrysler.

Obviously building a motor is just a small part of what is required to field a race team.Most of the “motor” problems had nothing to do with the motor. When you try to build more power you identify a lot of other weak links on the racecar. With the torque of the 4-valve engine we had a succession of catastrophic drive train failures and expended an enormous amount of time and energy making everything else on the car, better. As it started to run properly we started to burn it up and had to make bigger fuel pumps and barrel valves.In any combustion chamber when you have detonation it will damage the most vulnerable area of the chamber. On a two-valve motor a trough gets burnt between the exhaust valve and the plugs. With the 4-valve engine it would pick on the area between the exhaust valves. We made one piece dual valve seats that took care of that and we ran the last few years with a half dozen heads being rotated in service.

Finally we did start to run well. We bought a state-of-the-art chassis, hired a champion driver and assembled an experienced crew. We purchased the best clutches, superchargers and ignitions available and began to make respectable runs. At that point we began to qualify for most of the races, sometimes in the top half of the field, and occasionally won some rounds. We broke into the 4’s in 1992 with Gary Beck driving.

We went from being laughed at to being the subject of a lot of behind-the-scenes secret meetings with engine builders, auto companies, team owners and race officials. Long before the rules were written, in 1997, to outlaw overhead cam, multi valve engines, most of the teams had been scared off realizing that any advantage with the engine would be negated by added weight.

Today Phil and I are racing with our kids and having fun. Our dad, Hedley, was inducted into the Australian Speedway Hall of Fame in 2007. We still have some unfinished business in the world of fuel racing. We will be a part of fuel racing again. Visit Mcgee Cams Jr. Dragster Racing or Kaitlyn McGee Racing for more news. Chris McGee.

 

[Mooseman]

How did you guys design everything and machine everything and make everything? How did you guys learn to make everything yourself and get the gear? How did you learn your skills?