Im a big hemi fan so if I was racing in the nitro class I wouldnt use anything else but I was wondering what would happen if nhra opened up the engine rules where it was still pushrod 2 valves per cylinder but they allowed other engines like the boss 429 or one of the many chevy combos out there now or those arias hemi chevy engines that used to be around . I know they wont do this but its an interesting question of what if .
What would happen if NHRA allowed more engines? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Mooseman
- Start date
yoda
Nitro Member
Its really about the R&D William, and how much time and money a team can invest before they must start seeing results. In the "old days" 
, it was much easier to come up with an alternative program- most teams didn't have to invest most of their year in one series, and match racing (A.K.A. testing ) was plentiful in all regions of the country. It wouldn't be unusual to see several alternative powerplants run successfully (Drake Viscombe- Ford; Jim Bucher- Chevy are two that come to mind) on a regional level.
What is amazing now is watching the wide variety of powerplants available run stellar numbers in the Top Dragster classes. The numbers these folks are running on alky and various induction systems far surpasses many of the professional cars from the past.
, it was much easier to come up with an alternative program- most teams didn't have to invest most of their year in one series, and match racing (A.K.A. testing ) was plentiful in all regions of the country. It wouldn't be unusual to see several alternative powerplants run successfully (Drake Viscombe- Ford; Jim Bucher- Chevy are two that come to mind) on a regional level. What is amazing now is watching the wide variety of powerplants available run stellar numbers in the Top Dragster classes. The numbers these folks are running on alky and various induction systems far surpasses many of the professional cars from the past.
willy
Nitro Member
William, they have pretty much stymied innovation in the nitro classes.
I would like to see the combination Cruz tested come to frution..and let innovation play a role..but I don't see it.
There is very little a crew chief can do to gain an edge..mechanically wise. It all has to do with the clutch and timing basically, at this point.
I would like to see the combination Cruz tested come to frution..and let innovation play a role..but I don't see it.
There is very little a crew chief can do to gain an edge..mechanically wise. It all has to do with the clutch and timing basically, at this point.
I allways thought this was an interesting article about the cammers
Competition Plus.com - Drag Racing's Internet Magazine
Competition Plus.com - Drag Racing's Internet Magazine
Bill
Nitro Member
I know what NHRA does (regarding dictating motor specs in the Pro classes), but I don't know why.
In the 'sixties, there were OHC cam Ford 427's, Pontiac Hemis (Jack Chrisman won the '62 Nationals driving the Mickey Thompson car with Hemi heads on a Pontiac engine), Oldsmobiles (The Sour Sisters; Ratican, Safford and Gaide; Creitz and Greer; Porter and Reis ), Chevys (Peter/Frank Freight Train; Nye Frank's "Pulsator; "Lefty" Mudersbach), and a bunch of others, whose names escape me...
Somewhere along the way, after the tires caught up with the horsepower, it became obvious that unless you ran the Chrysler Hemi, you weren't going to win. But it took outlawing 'cammer motors to get to that place.
One can only conjecture what happened behind the scenes to pursuade NHRA to ban the McGee and Eagle 4-valve motors, along with the Ford 'cammer... but use your imagination....
It was lot more interesting and a lot more exciting racing when there were different engines at war.
Pro Stock is a worst case scenario of this syndrome.
NASCAR has ALWAYS been a "driver's race" and in their frenzy to copy what NASCAR does, NHRA has tried to create "spec" engines in the Pro classes, just like what NASCAR has.... and, in doing so, turn drag racing into a "driver's race."
Unfortunately, it's just as boring.
In the 'sixties, there were OHC cam Ford 427's, Pontiac Hemis (Jack Chrisman won the '62 Nationals driving the Mickey Thompson car with Hemi heads on a Pontiac engine), Oldsmobiles (The Sour Sisters; Ratican, Safford and Gaide; Creitz and Greer; Porter and Reis ), Chevys (Peter/Frank Freight Train; Nye Frank's "Pulsator; "Lefty" Mudersbach), and a bunch of others, whose names escape me...
Somewhere along the way, after the tires caught up with the horsepower, it became obvious that unless you ran the Chrysler Hemi, you weren't going to win. But it took outlawing 'cammer motors to get to that place.
One can only conjecture what happened behind the scenes to pursuade NHRA to ban the McGee and Eagle 4-valve motors, along with the Ford 'cammer... but use your imagination....
It was lot more interesting and a lot more exciting racing when there were different engines at war.
Pro Stock is a worst case scenario of this syndrome.
NASCAR has ALWAYS been a "driver's race" and in their frenzy to copy what NASCAR does, NHRA has tried to create "spec" engines in the Pro classes, just like what NASCAR has.... and, in doing so, turn drag racing into a "driver's race."
Unfortunately, it's just as boring.
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The Counterfeiter
Nitro Member
The McGee quad cam was an interesting piece. Last time I saw it run was at Firebird national event before cammers were banned. They had a little problem and the engine jumped out of the chassis, still connected by the fuel lines.
The driver (don't remember who), when interviewed, was asked when he realized he had a problem . . . "When the engine passed me." -
This has very little to do with this thread, other than the fact that it dredged up a fun memory out of the cloudy memory bank. And . . . the fact that it's sad that innovation is dead and probably will remain so. -
The driver (don't remember who), when interviewed, was asked when he realized he had a problem . . . "When the engine passed me." -
This has very little to do with this thread, other than the fact that it dredged up a fun memory out of the cloudy memory bank. And . . . the fact that it's sad that innovation is dead and probably will remain so. -
yoda
Nitro Member
The McGee quad cam was an interesting piece. Last time I saw it run was at Firebird national event before cammers were banned. They had a little problem and the engine jumped out of the chassis, still connected by the fuel lines.
The driver (don't remember who), when interviewed, was asked when he realized he had a problem . . . "When the engine passed me." -
This has very little to do with this thread, other than the fact that it dredged up a fun memory out of the cloudy memory bank. And . . . the fact that it's sad that innovation is dead and probably will remain so. -
Hopefully Chris will chime in here... I bet he can be REALLY informative about the reasons why we don't see some really cool pieces out here today.
One thing I love about drag racing is as simple as the idea of racing in straight line first one to the finish wins is it is a sport where being smart and having alot of brains really does help . I have allways thought of drag racing and land speed racing as sports where you are more likely to find rocket scientist type people .
AlkyDennis
Nitro Member
Chet Herbert tried........
"I'm still involved in engineering and design," said Chet. "In 1995, I designed a four-valve engine based on a 500 cubic inch Cadillac. Put over two years of work into it."
But he was told that NHRA had changed the rules on the 5-inch bore center, and that 4.9 inches was the new limit. Chevys and Chryslers were both 4.8. Angrily, Herbert built a two-valve, 4.9-inch bore center Ford engine, with Ralph and Spike Gorr putting it into a Top Fueler and Billy Williams in his alcohol Funny Car.
This is from an old article I found online at....Chet Herbert Cams - Racing Parts - Drive Magazine
Chet was a real innovator, I ran one of those Ford hemi engines he designed on alcohol with an old roots blower this year in Lou Novotny's dragster and it was competitive in a Quick 8 outlaw dragster class mostly at Norwalk
"I'm still involved in engineering and design," said Chet. "In 1995, I designed a four-valve engine based on a 500 cubic inch Cadillac. Put over two years of work into it."
But he was told that NHRA had changed the rules on the 5-inch bore center, and that 4.9 inches was the new limit. Chevys and Chryslers were both 4.8. Angrily, Herbert built a two-valve, 4.9-inch bore center Ford engine, with Ralph and Spike Gorr putting it into a Top Fueler and Billy Williams in his alcohol Funny Car.
This is from an old article I found online at....Chet Herbert Cams - Racing Parts - Drive Magazine
Chet was a real innovator, I ran one of those Ford hemi engines he designed on alcohol with an old roots blower this year in Lou Novotny's dragster and it was competitive in a Quick 8 outlaw dragster class mostly at Norwalk
d'kid
Nitro Member
Sneaky Pete made a Gear drive that made it easier, but it still was a royal PITA, then along cam the BOSS, and FoMoCo decided that was the way they wanted to go... but the motor wanted more pop than they could give it, and alot more air... gee, just like what we have now.... just 40 years too soon.
d'kid
If there was a better mousetrap, they would have been running against the MOPAR Hemi years ago before NHRA speced it for the only player in the field. The Hemi has been proven to make big power at reasonable cost and reliability. Come up with something better and they may entertain it.
Nick Name
Nitro Member
Chris and Phil ran their own car with one. And there were a number of alky cars with them.
I think NHRA tolerated the McGee until Bernstein / Armstrong got one, then they started to sweat. That was probably when the other teams put the pressure on NHRA.
very true . . .
and also why I believe ADRL is doing so well (along with all the grassroots 10.5/8.5 etc classes).
In no other sanctioning body can you see one class with an alcohol/screw motor, nitrous SBF, twin turbo BBCs, and a giant turbo hanging off a 2j.
Extreme 10.5 is hands down my favorite class in any drag racing organization.
willy
Nitro Member
Some have tried Ian..but innovation was stymied!! Oh..I don't know..to begin with ask the Austins.
Bill
Nitro Member
If there was a better mousetrap, they would have been running against the MOPAR Hemi years ago before NHRA speced it for the only player in the field. The Hemi has been proven to make big power at reasonable cost and reliability. Come up with something better and they may entertain it.
There were several better mousetraps; why else would NHRA ban them from competition; The 427 SOHC Ford motor was one.. same basic confiuration as a MoPar Hemi without all the valve train problems. The McGee and Eagle 4-valve motors had more potential, but NHRA banned them before they had a chance to run roughshod of the Mighty Hemi.
NHRA has banned pneumatic valve springs from EVERY category of racing. Nobody seems to want to say why. It makes me think of a scenario/possibility that maybe NHRA could be accepting "decision-influencing stipends" from steel spring manufacturers, to keep the "springs that never wear out" from purloining sales from the traditional metal spring manufacturers.
That is, of course, just a wild and crazy possibility, isn't it????
Like, if the 4-valve and SOHC engines weren't, literally. a "better mousetrap," what would be the reason for banning them, like NHRA did????????????
And, who benefitted, financially, from the ban????
Interesting questions, I think... No obvious answers...
There were several better mousetraps; why else would NHRA ban them from competition; The 427 SOHC Ford motor was one.. same basic confiuration as a MoPar Hemi without all the valve train problems. The McGee and Eagle 4-valve motors had more potential, but NHRA banned them before they had a chance to run roughshod of the Mighty Hemi.
NHRA has banned pneumatic valve springs from EVERY category of racing. Nobody seems to want to say why. It makes me think of a scenario/possibility that maybe NHRA could be accepting "decision-influencing stipends" from steel spring manufacturers, to keep the "springs that never wear out" from purloining sales from the traditional metal spring manufacturers.
That is, of course, just a wild and crazy possibility, isn't it????
Like, if the 4-valve and SOHC engines weren't, literally. a "better mousetrap," what would be the reason for banning them, like NHRA did????????????
And, who benefitted, financially, from the ban????
Interesting questions, I think... No obvious answers...
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