Turbochargers, one more time... (1 Viewer)

[Bill]

Back in about 1985 (I think), I was at the Fremont strip, watching an event in which "240" Gordy Bonin had brought two "FLO-RITE"-sponsored Fuel Funny Cars to, tuned by the late ( and, brilliant) Jerry Verhuel.

One of the cars was twin-turbocharged. It blew the tires off every time they attempted to get it down the track.

It obviously was not down on horsepower. It appeared that the clutch-managment system (remember, this was nearly 25 years ago) simply was not able to dole out the abundant available power to the rear wheels in a manner that it could be properly utilized.

Times change. Clutch management systems have made quantum leaps in their ability to deliver just the right amount of power at just the right time, and with the onboard data-logging equipment available today, I wonder whether a turbo system might not have a better chance to be competitive, now, utilizing a state-of-the-art, present-day clutch system.

Perhaps someone in ProMod might have a competitive turbocharged car this upcoming year. Mike Moran's car shows a lot of promise.

For some reason, NHRA has seen fit to exclude them (turbochargers) from competition in the Fuel classes, along with centrifugal superchargers and screw compressors. Nothing but a classic, traditional, 6-71 type blower is acceptable.

I'd like someone who might understand their reasoning for this to explain why they do it; they're all just different ways of pushing air into an engine. High-helix Roots type blowers aren't even legal on a Fuel motor. As I understand it, they just have more "twist" on the rotors.

That sounds unduly restrictive to me. What's the reason for this Draconian thinking?

We didn't get to 335 mph with this sort of brain-dead, "Stop any performance development" mindset in place during drag racing's developmental period.

I would like to know what's behind this ultra-conservative approach to "RACING."

Anybody have an ideas why they do this? Sounds like performance has become a dirty word at NHRA Tech.

Any information will be appreciated.

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas

 

[haagar]

I would like to know what's behind this ultra-conservative approach to "RACING."

Anybody have an ideas why they do this? Sounds like performance has become a dirty word at NHRA Tech.

It isn't about the racing any more. It is about the show. Most fans wouldn't know the difference and don't care about what type of compressor is pushing air into the motor. NHRA wants the racing as close as possible to get as many people to buy tickets as they can. But, thats just my opinion.

 

[Gary H]

A turbo on a fuel car is asking for trouble. I think the limits on performance are dictated more by the insurance companies then they are by NHRA.

 

[Toejam]

People like they're Fuel cars Loud! Turbo's completely defeat that Purpose! Not to mention all that Heat your asking for trouble!

 

[coyotedale]

Actually this would have been around 78-80 time frame. I think they did make some attempts at what used to be LA County,, but I wouldn't put it past them testing at OCIR or Fremont either.

As for clutch management,,,, there was no such thing then, just levers, weights, change in radius and height. Basically what is used in today's nostalgia fuel ranks.

Now if they had a clutch management system, even a simple version of what is used today, it would have been interesting to see what they could have accomplished.

Back in about 1985 (I think), I was at the Fremont strip, watching an event in which "240" Gordy Bonin had brought two "FLO-RITE"-sponsored Fuel Funny Cars to, tuned by the late ( and, brilliant) Jerry Verhuel.

One of the cars was twin-turbocharged. It blew the tires off every time they attempted to get it down the track.

It obviously was not down on horsepower. It appeared that the clutch-managment system (remember, this was nearly 25 years ago) simply was not able to dole out the abundant available power to the rear wheels in a manner that it could be properly utilized.

Times change. Clutch management systems have made quantum leaps in their ability to deliver just the right amount of power at just the right time, and with the onboard data-logging equipment available today, I wonder whether a turbo system might not have a better chance to be competitive, now, utilizing a state-of-the-art, present-day clutch system.

Perhaps someone in ProMod might have a competitive turbocharged car this upcoming year. Mike Moran's car shows a lot of promise.

For some reason, NHRA has seen fit to exclude them (turbochargers) from competition in the Fuel classes, along with centrifugal superchargers and screw compressors. Nothing but a classic, traditional, 6-71 type blower is acceptable.

I'd like someone who might understand their reasoning for this to explain why they do it; they're all just different ways of pushing air into an engine. High-helix Roots type blowers aren't even legal on a Fuel motor. As I understand it, they just have more "twist" on the rotors.

That sounds unduly restrictive to me. What's the reason for this Draconian thinking?

We didn't get to 335 mph with this sort of brain-dead, "Stop any performance development" mindset in place during drag racing's developmental period.

I would like to know what's behind this ultra-conservative approach to "RACING."

Anybody have an ideas why they do this? Sounds like performance has become a dirty word at NHRA Tech.

Any information will be appreciated.

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas

 

[coyotedale]

Just heard back from Gordo,,, it was between 78-80 when this combo was tested. Gordie was not a fan of it, and said he basically didn't file much of the experience into his memory.

 

[Toejam]

Just heard back from Gordo,,, it was between 78-80 when this combo was tested. Gordie was not a fan of it, and said he basically didn't file much of the experience into his memory.

One of the Natl Dragster Reader's choice columns were about Turbo Charging a Fuel car. And they interviewed Gordie about that FC. And they tried anywhere from 40% to 80% Nitro trying to find a happy combo. But as Gordie commented "It either did a Huge Wheelstand, Boiled the Tires, or Exploded! Usually exploded!" So they scraped the combo, I had always wondered what the Heat factor of Nitro would do to a Turbo Combination anyway...

 

[coyotedale]

Ok, just heard back from him in more detail. They ran this deal at a Div points race in Sact,, running anywhere from 50-90 percent. 240 said the thing sounded like a vacuum cleaner on steroids, and was an animal. During qualifying it only made it to 1000 before letting go, and they still qualified no.2

After that they put the conventional combo back in and whooped em all.

One of the Natl Dragster Reader's choice columns were about Turbo Charging a Fuel car. And they interviewed Gordie about that FC. And they tried anywhere from 40% to 80% Nitro trying to find a happy combo. But as Gordie commented "It either did a Huge Wheelstand, Boiled the Tires, or Exploded! Usually exploded!" So they scraped the combo, I had always wondered what the Heat factor of Nitro would do to a Turbo Combination anyway...

 

[You!]

This was at LACR about '85. Gale Banks was involved and Rick Johnson was driving. I remember because I was finishing up my license runs in my FED and Rick signed off on my forms.

Thing smoked alot as it staged and it ran O.K. but was dead quiet. My dad even said at the time that if that combination did work, it would have been the end of nitro racing.

 

[Just Paul]

Cool..

Take off that black stripe, and it looks to me like an old Larry Minor/Gary Beck Miller American car.

 

[Bill]

Thanks to all of you who responded to this question of mine.

I especially appreciate the information (and, the effort it took to get it) RE the Bonin car. Thanks much!

With regard to why it wasn't competitive (the wheelstands and blowing the tires off), that is precisely what I thought the new clutch systems might be able to prevent. With drivetrain problems out of the way, they could work on a viable tuneup for it.

But, nobody has yet said what the reason might be that NHRA has a total ban on that system, effectively killing any chance of development.

If it's not an effective way to race, nobody's going to run one, anyway... right? No apparent reason to make the whole concept illegal.

Thanks again for all the good information.... that was too cool, to hear it from Gordin Bonin, himself!

BTW, in May of 1980, I moved to California from Iowa, never having been in California, before. I have pictures of the "turbo" Flo-Rite car in the pits at Fremont. I must have taken them right after I moved there.

 

[Toejam]

But, nobody has yet said what the reason might be that NHRA has a total ban on that system, effectively killling any chance of development.

If it's not an effective way to race, nobody's going to run one, anyway... right? No apparent reason to make the whole concept illegal.

NHRA Banned Turbo chargers from Alky Dragsters and FC's before someone even thought of fielding one. The Fact of the matter is you have a serious advantage with a Turbo since your not putting any Drag (pun) on the Motor to speak of. IN the Dragboats they had a guy named Terry Newton who ran a Twin Turbo combo in the Alky Hydro boat class that ran awesome when it ran good, it was very inconsistant. But I'm willing to bet that IF it ever became dominent, it would be legislated out of existance.

 

[none]

Just heard back from Gordo,,, it was between 78-80 when this combo was tested. Gordie was not a fan of it, and said he basically didn't file much of the experience into his memory.

That sounds about right. The Flo-rite deal was done in `81, not long after Gordie won Gainesville. I remember SS&DI had an article about the turbo experiment and that they were going to run it at the Winters but Verheul chose not to.

 

[Comp6992]

I have a good picture of a twin turbocharged fuel motor from the pits in Spokane. Can someone PM me and let me know how I post it?
Thanks
Lon

 

[JHOLE]

"NHRA Banned Turbo chargers from Alky Dragsters and FC's before someone even thought of fielding one."

Ummm. You ever here of Chase Knight ?

Pretty competitive through the pro comp years with a turbo dragster.

Awefully nice man. And had beautiful cars.

 

[Toejam]

"NHRA Banned Turbo chargers from Alky Dragsters and FC's before someone even thought of fielding one."

Ummm. You ever here of Chase Knight ?

Pretty competitive through the pro comp years with a turbo dragster.

Awefully nice man. And had beautiful cars.

Must have been back in the 80's, doesn't sound familiar... Did he run competitive numbers?

 

["Chuck"]

Bill, to answer your question in the best way that i can, NHRA hasnt allowed high helix rotors, screw type blowers, centrifugal blowers or turbochargers on fuel cars because to run that combination is about 2-3 times more expensive than running a low helix, roots type supercharger. Also because the ammount of horsepower they create would make the cars faster or if done uncorrectly much more prone to detonation and explosion. I feel it is safe to say that I know a fair share about nitromethane and I tell you that with its very high density and resistance to compression that i feel its safe to say that it would eat through the compressor side of a turbo and these guys would have to be rebuilding them at X ammount of runs... Thats just a hypothesis though.

Also, high helix rotors and turbochargers create an enormous ammount of horsepower due to their design on more compressed induction and less heat...Anybody who is anybody will tell you that a turbocharger makes more horsepower than a blower strictly because of how many RPM's a turbo can spin and its super low temperature coming out of the compressor side...But ill stop talking now before my super technical mind goes into overdrive lol

 

[Mike]

One thing I never understood about turbos in drag racing.....

you have much more extensive development in tractor pulling, and there should be things the pullers have done that can be adapted to the strip.

The most powerful turbocharged vehicles nowadays are the alcohol burning unlimited super stocks. A couple years ago I heard they were making 4500hp for a two-stage, three charger setup with hemi heads developed for their ag engines (usually near the 650 ci max the rules allow). I haven't heard hp figures in the past 2 years, but if you've ever seen one of these tractors live, they are impressive.

Not as powerful overall as a 5 engine unlimited modified like Bill Vories' American Thunder (hard tractor to beat) or a 4 turbine tractor like General, but if you're looking at hp for one engine, a top running unlimited super stock makes a ton.

It would be scary if someone got one of those types of engines on nitro to work.

 

[possum]

Gale Banks had firebird alky funnycar at the Winternats around 1986 that had a twin turbo Pontiac "big chief" headed Chevy.

Certainly turbos are all the rage nowadays in fast street car races but it's hardly a new thing, there were lots of older heavy hitters. Mallicoats, Ohio George, Buddy Ingersoll, etc.

 

[Bill]

Certainly turbos are all the rage nowadays in fast street car races but it's hardly a new thing, there were lots of older heavy hitters. Mallicoats, Ohio George, Buddy Ingersoll, etc.

That's correct; they've been around a long time, and the apparent reason that they didn't work on a Fuel motor back then was the lack of a clutch-management system that could deal with their output vagaries.

Now that systems exist that might make them competitive, NHRA has seen fit to outlaw them.

That was my original reason for bringing this up... to ask WHY?

Someone pointed out that they might not "live" long in a nitro application, but then, how many runs does a Roots blower make, usually, before it needs attention?

Someone else pointed out how much power turbo motors make....

HELLO... this is RACING. Why did Garlits put a blower on his motor at Bakersfield in 1957 (or, was it '58?)

I stilll have no idea as to why NHRA is so intent on stifling technological innovation. If they were REALLY interested in cutting costs for the racers, they'd make 'em all run on alcohol and kill two birds with one stone... They could go back to 1320 feet and no more humongous blower explosions/fires...and parts attrition would plummet.
Expensive fuel and the games suppliers play with it would be a thing of the past.

But, they're not REALLY interested.... so, why ban turbos????

I still don't know.


Specific output is the name of the game.... always has been.