Some thoughts on the reasons for existing NHRA rules... (2 Viewers)

[JON]

Alan's "valvespring that did not break went slower" sounds a lot like the old spring having "nose float letting more air in" effect?

There's no doubt pneumatic valve springs would save on broken springs, but racers race so maybe everyone would then bump their cam profile accels up and break pushrods and rockers instead?!

 

[Bill]

In a "worst case scenario, we might assume that a blown alcohol dragster would turn in excess of 9,000 rpm, maybe 10,000, three times during its run and uses "battleship" valve springs which Manley sells for a $650.00 set, and I have heard that they last fot three runs, then must be replaced. I have no personal knowledge as to that, but, that is what I have heard. Let's say that the car is a fast one and makes three qualifyibg passes. That is one set of $650.00 valve springs. Then, lets say he wins the Eliminator (I said it was "fast,") so that is another three (at least,) runs... another $650.00 and he hasn't broken anything. If he runs the car the full schedule, that is 23 X $1,300.00-per race = $29,000.00 a year, plus say, 4 points races (another $5,200.00) totals out at just over $34,200.00 a year just for valve springs... no breakage included. If he runs that car for 4 years, that's $136,200.00. Just for valve springs.

That is what distresses me. This is NOT a Pro category car... it's a "hobby" car...

I got information from a website called the Henipartsking. Here is a sample of their listing for Manley valves for Hemis...:


NEW MANLEY NEXTEC VALVE SPRINGS LISTED BY PART NUMBER AND PRESSURE:

221447-16 [email protected]" INSTALLED $432..00 A SET

221448-16 [email protected]" INSTALLED $452.00 A SET

221449-16 [email protected]" INSTALLED $565.00 A SET

221450-16 [email protected]" INSTALLED $630.00 A SET

221451-16 [email protected]" INSTALLED $770.00 A SET

221461-16 [email protected]" INSTALLED $860.00 A SET

Am I seeing something wrong?

Bill

 

[Treeshaker]

Bill,

The alcohol cars do not run at all national events and most teams do not run all the available national events. Manley makes good products but there are brands that last up to twice as long. If the car in your reference is as fast as you say, they are on a spring deal with a manufacturer. hemipartsking is a retailer so you are paying full price unless you are a steady customer buying a lot of consumables/hard parts for your racecar from them.

 

[Nunz]

Bill you really started an interesting thread, but damn, you're really pushing for a change in the valve springs used by racers. You getting in the biz? And nobody liked my idea about lobbying for A/Fuel FCs to return?

 

[Bill]

Bill,

The alcohol cars do not run at all national events and most teams do not run all the available national events. Manley makes good products but there are brands that last up to twice as long. If the car in your reference is as fast as you say, they are on a spring deal with a manufacturer. hemipartsking is a retailer so you are paying full price unless you are a steady customer buying a lot of consumables/hard parts for your racecar from them.

Virgil,

I said that the example I chose was a "worst-case-scenario", but I didn't realize that trhe Alcohol cars didn't run all the national events. I am not knowledgable enough to be writing this sort of thread, so, perhaps I should stop My example was based on Ace Manzo in a dragster... what his spring bill might look like for a year... but, like I said, I don't have the knowledge to be accurate in my assessments of cost.... all I knew to do was shop online for springs.. but, it is still going to be a sizeable sum, even with the best "deals" around, I would bet.

It just mystifies me that NHRA can create a situation like this valve$pring deal and ban, outright, an attractive alternative (IF that would be possible; I dunno,but I think it would be interesting to find out.) I might try.... I have a call in to Del West's engineerig department, as we speak.

Thanks for your always good ideas/information
BILL

 

[Bill]

Bill you really started an interesting thread, but damn, you're really pushing for a change in the valve springs used by racers. You getting in the biz? And nobody liked my idea about lobbying for A/Fuel FCs to return?

Nunzio; I am in NO WAY financially. or in any other way, involved with any alcohol car/engine builder or race team. My interest in drag cars is on a very "amateur" level (I have a bracket car I try to race,) and that is as far as it goes. If I seem a little too pushy or forceful, blame it on the years of frustration I have endured over this issue and my own "obesessiive/compulsive" nature, a lifelong affliction. My mother, (I am 77,) used to say to me, "You drive something into the ground and break it off!" when I was a teen...

Maybe that personality defect is something you never get over; I dunno... Apparently, not.

I always ;liked the naturally-aspirated Fuel Funny cars and was disappointed when they went away... But, nobody cares what I like, (and, why should they?) so, I didn't say anything...

Bill
PS This is my bracket car

 

[None]

Virgil,

I said that the example I chose was a "worst-case-scenario", buit I didn't realize that trhe Alcohol cars didn't run all the national events. I am not knowledgable enough to be writing this sort of thread, so, perhaps I should stop My example was based on Ace Manzo in a dragster... what his spring bill might look like for a year... but, like I said, I don't have the knowledge to be accurate in my assessments of cost.... all I knew to do was shop online for springs.. but, it is still going to be a sizeable sum, even with the best "deals" around, I would bet.

It just mystifies me that NHRA can create a situation like this valve$pring deal and ban, outright, an attractive alternative (IF that would be poss\ible; I dunno,but I think it would be interesting to find out.) I might try.... I have a call in to Del West's engineerig department, as we speak.

Thanks for your always good ideas/information
bILL

With the NHRA. No kick back equals no deal.

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

I guess I'm confused on this whole deal with submitting something for approval.........

Garlits and Fuller have already run a mono-strut set-up in competition, correct? If so, was that before this particular policy was put in place?

Sean D

 

[PJ]

I guess I'm confused on this whole deal with submitting something for approval.........

Garlits and Fuller have already run a mono-strut set-up in competition, correct? If so, was that before this particular policy was put in place?

Sean D

In Garlits case,I believe he was given special permission to run them as testing units . While not always at National Events, they NHRA has had different teams test things out in test sessions before

 

[Nunz]

Bill, looks like a cool ride!

 

[ironpony]

Going fast costs money, pay to play. How fast do you want to go $$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Want to save valve springs on the alcohol cars?? rev limiter 8000 rpm, DONE.

Part of the issue with a mono strut is if it is not absolutely perfect it will create a low and high pressure side causing "lift" one way or the other. Perfect not only on manufacturing but in mounting it also. I also believe to get it rigid enough it became a weight issue.

the one I would like to see tried again is when Joe Amato came out with the carbon fiber one piece body on Darrel Russell's dragster, anyone remember that? Imagine a one piece tub for the chassis, then a one piece body slid down over it and fastened together for rigidity/flexibility.
weight reduction, better aerodynamics.

then how about all the flexing in a funny car body, destroys aerodynamics. they need a lot of stiffening, I have talked to Jim Head about this, he adds about 100 lbs worth of stiffeners to his bodies before he runs them.

my background is in aircraft so I look at things a little differently.

Pro stock hood scoops did nothing for performance except decrease it. It was like having a parachute on the front of the car. The main reason for it was the carburetors fit up inside it you could not eliminate it. I spoke to Jeg and Greg Anderson about it many times. There is almost zero positive pressure generated by it.

We also learned, with wind tunnel testing, that sometimes airflow can be to smooth. There were times when we added deflectors to disrupt airflow which made things work better. I would like to try that on a pro stock car someday.

 

[none]

Alan's "valvespring that did not break went slower" sounds a lot like the old spring having "nose float letting more air in" effect?

There's no doubt pneumatic valve springs would save on broken springs, but racers race so maybe everyone would then bump their cam profile accels up and break pushrods and rockers instead?!

Jonathon,
Not arguing but we did extensive Spin Tron testing and I think that floating the valve over the nose would have shown up there. I could certainly change the float with installed height or a slightly weaker spring. So I don't believe that was it.

As Austin Coil always said "It's never nothing" But, I have never been able to figure out what the "something" was.
Alan

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

Pro stock hood scoops did nothing for performance except decrease it. It was like having a parachute on the front of the car. The main reason for it was the carburetors fit up inside it you could not eliminate it. I spoke to Jeg and Greg Anderson about it many times. There is almost zero positive pressure generated by it.

Interesting........

I thought I read somewhere (admittedly, years ago) that Warren said there actually was a benefit to the hood scoops, but it wasn't much more than enough to wash out the loss through aerodynamics. Again, that was a long time ago, so I'm sure things have changed over the years.

Jonathon,
Not arguing but we did extensive Spin Tron testing and I think that floating the valve over the nose would have shown up there. I could certainly change the float with installed height or a slightly weaker spring. So I don't believe that was it.

As Austin Coil always said "It's never nothing" But, I have never been able to figure out what the "something" was.
Alan

This was my first thought when I read your story the first time around. Several guys have told me they've gotten horsepower increases by floating the valve, but I agree that if you had them both on the Spintron, you would've certainly seen it.

Sean D

 

[Bill]

Bill, looks like a cool ride!

Thanks for tthe kind words, Nunzio. It was built as a "last-gasp" effort because at age 77, I realize that this may well be my last-ever project and I wanted something "different," after a lifetime of conventional, modified V-8s. I discovered that a Mopar slant six was particularly adaptiable to forced induction with an infrastructure much like a Diesel (strong!) and could withstand boost pressures that would turn many other engines into a pile of scap metal. Naturally-aspirated slant sixes have a well-deserved reputation as poor-performing power-makers (just over 300 horsepower seems to be their limit,) but forced-induction slants routinely make 500-600 horsepower (on gasoline) so, I decided to try one. I have a friend who has run as much as 37 pounds of boost in one, without damage. My engine is new and, so far, has only utilized fifteen pounds of boost, but, that willl change very soon. It curently makes about 360 horsepower and goes high 11's in my '64 Valiant. It is just a race car and never is street-driven. Just a hobby... LOL!

Bill

 

[ironpony]

neat ride Bill, are you in Ohio by any chance I have seen one around here.
Also you have my Dad beat by a few years, he raced antique flat track motorcycle till he was 74. His last race was Sept 2001, he is 90 now.
He rode a 1924 Indian big valve board track racer. His racing partner was Gene Baron he was 75. They called it the AARP Racing Team.
hope you have a lot more years of fun ahead.

 

[Bill]

neat ride Bill, are you in Ohio by any chance I have seen one around here.
Also you have my Dad beat by a few years, he raced antique flat track motorcycle till he was 74. His last race was Sept 2001, he is 90 now.
He rode a 1924 Indian big valve board track racer. His racing partner was Gene Baron he was 75. They called it the AARP Racing Team.
hope you have a lot more years of fun ahead.

Thanks, Ken.

No, I live in Conway, Arkansas, an almost-suburb (but, a little too far away,) of Little Rock (where I went to High School... class of '56).
Your dad sounds like a fun guy! I'll bet you guys have a ball, together... The slant six is easy to work on, but the "tune" is kickin' my ass.... LOL!

I'll get it.... eventually.....

Bill

 

[Dave]

Interesting........

I thought I read somewhere (admittedly, years ago) that Warren said there actually was a benefit to the hood scoops, but it wasn't much more than enough to wash out the loss through aerodynamics. Again, that was a long time ago, so I'm sure things have changed over the years.

Sean D

I think you might be right. Although this was 21 years ago and opinions do change. Chalk it up to a "tried that" experiment. Much like Billy Glidden last year in NMCA Pro Mod just taking the scoop off entirely and leaving the tops of the carbs out in the open.

If it doesn't start there like it should, skip to 14:50. (Or just watch the whole thing because this was a great tv show back in the day!)

 

[Dave]

I guess I'm confused on this whole deal with submitting something for approval.........
Garlits and Fuller have already run a mono-strut set-up in competition, correct? If so, was that before this particular policy was put in place?
Sean D

I do recall something about Garlits' being grandfathered in. Rod Fuller never ran his in competition that I remember, but did test it at Firebird during the winter test and at Gainesville after the Gatornationals in 2007. I don't think the Clay Millican/Mike Klober monostrut ever made the track.
Here are some articles and pictures from back in the day...
http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=128868
http://www.competitionplus.com/featured-stories/1600-mono-strutting-their-stuff
Interesting controversy here. Also it was noted that this new design was not approved, but would be given the potential to.

 

[ironpony]

My brother is in Little Rock, we will be down there in Sept.

 

[Bill]

My brother is in Little Rock, we will be down there in Sept.

I'd love to get together. Let me know at [email protected], please. It would be my pleasure to buy your lunch! I ive in Conway, just a 20-minute drive from Little Rock.

Bill