Nitromater

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The Hour long delays are back....

Everything mechanical is subject to failure... like parachutes on a race car, which is what led to Gary ending up in the sand to begin with. So lets say NHRA installed an arresting cable - and for the record I think it's a terrible idea - what happens when the hook release mechanism on a race car (gonna need a hook if you're going to have a cable) fails? On an aircraft carrier those arresting gear wires are held four inches off the deck by springs. How many funny cars have four inches of ground clearance at the nose? Lower the wire you say? Okay, then you greatly reduce the ability of the hook to engage it because if the car is bouncing (as most are at that point) it's difficult to keep the hook down. Sure, you could add a spring or some other mechanism to hold the hook down, but that's more weight and space at the back of the car. Or what happens if the nose of the car happens to engage the wire inadvertently? What's the outcome then? Is an arresting cable system possible? Sure, anything is possible I suppose, but in my mind it just isn't necessary.

We seem to act as if there's a way to prevent all crashes/mishaps in the future. There isn't - see: my opening sentence. Most folks involved in the sport are dedicated to managing the risks as best as they're able, but in the end racers and crews accept the risk. If they didn't - John Force racing would've folded like a cheap suit after we lost Eric. Alan Johnson would've walked away after we lost Blaine. Kalitta racing would've ceased to exist after we lost Scott. You get the idea.

The fact is, though they're scary and dangerous, the catch nets result in many more folks walking away than loss of life. Alexis Dejoria, Mike Dunn, Del Worsham & Gary Densham to name a few off the top of my head. And the sand is a crap shoot at best and contains too many variables to count. Anybody remember when Force flipped it on it's lid at Pomona?

The only really safe alternative would be to stop racing at the shorter facilities altogether... but then there'd be a thread with people from those regions screaming about the loss of nitro racing in their area. Or, as has been discussed many times in the past - have different length races based on shutdown area. Pomona, E-Town, etc. are 1/8th mile races, while AZ, Gainesville, etc. are 1/4 mile races and everything in between is 1,000'. We seem to model everything we do after NASCAR and they race different lengths and shapes, so why not?


I'm talking about using the first catch net itself as a arresting system instead of just a single cable 4" off the ground. Second, with the spring back of the first net it wadded up the car, and the net twisted around the wadded up car. If the car was on fire, or had caught fire while it twisted up in the first net could he have got out quick enough. Since they didn't show on tv (or I didn't see it) how he got out, I'd bet it took a bit of time to get him out. No matter what the car is going to get torn up, but it needs to stop a car so a driver isn't completely trapped in the arresting system.

A catch net ended the driving career of Doug Kerhulas who was in a coma for awhile when one of the cables in the net snapped back, and hit him on the helmet.
 
Everything mechanical is subject to failure... like parachutes on a race car, which is what led to Gary ending up in the sand to begin with. So lets say NHRA installed an arresting cable - and for the record I think it's a terrible idea - what happens when the hook release mechanism on a race car (gonna need a hook if you're going to have a cable) fails? On an aircraft carrier those arresting gear wires are held four inches off the deck by springs. How many funny cars have four inches of ground clearance at the nose? Lower the wire you say? Okay, then you greatly reduce the ability of the hook to engage it because if the car is bouncing (as most are at that point) it's difficult to keep the hook down. Sure, you could add a spring or some other mechanism to hold the hook down, but that's more weight and space at the back of the car. Or what happens if the nose of the car happens to engage the wire inadvertently? What's the outcome then? Is an arresting cable system possible? Sure, anything is possible I suppose, but in my mind it just isn't necessary.

We seem to act as if there's a way to prevent all crashes/mishaps in the future. There isn't - see: my opening sentence. Most folks involved in the sport are dedicated to managing the risks as best as they're able, but in the end racers and crews accept the risk. If they didn't - John Force racing would've folded like a cheap suit after we lost Eric. Alan Johnson would've walked away after we lost Blaine. Kalitta racing would've ceased to exist after we lost Scott. You get the idea.

The fact is, though they're scary and dangerous, the catch nets result in many more folks walking away than loss of life. Alexis Dejoria, Mike Dunn, Del Worsham & Gary Densham to name a few off the top of my head. And the sand is a crap shoot at best and contains too many variables to count. Anybody remember when Force flipped it on it's lid at Pomona?

The only really safe alternative would be to stop racing at the shorter facilities altogether... but then there'd be a thread with people from those regions screaming about the loss of nitro racing in their area. Or, as has been discussed many times in the past - have different length races based on shutdown area. Pomona, E-Town, etc. are 1/8th mile races, while AZ, Gainesville, etc. are 1/4 mile races and everything in between is 1,000'. We seem to model everything we do after NASCAR and they race different lengths and shapes, so why not?
Agree, very bad idea. Better idea, find out why chutes did not open. If I understand correctly there's three options 2 are in drivers hand and 1 for NHRA the release that automatically deployes chutes, none of those 3 worked, lets find out why.
 
Agree, very bad idea. Better idea, find out why chutes did not open. If I understand correctly there's three options 2 are in drivers hand and 1 for NHRA the release that automatically deployes chutes, none of those 3 worked, lets find out why.


Gary Densham explained why the chutes didn't deploy. He put new, different parachute packs on the car, and he didn't check the cables for being too long. The cables were too long so the parachutes weren't able to be released. Gary took 100% of the blame for not checking the cable length for the chutes.
 
Gary Densham explained why the chutes didn't deploy. He put new, different parachute packs on the car, and he didn't check the cables for being too long. The cables were too long so the parachutes weren't able to be released. Gary took 100% of the blame for not checking the cable length for the chutes.
Thanks, Kenneth I had not read that.
 
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Who said to use the cable to catch the cars, the nets that the planes are cought by are ready to fly in hrs, granted the net system would damage a race car differently, but the big difference is the blunt trauma caused when the speed is stopped to short, Gary's car spinning probably helped that factor, these great nets have killed at least one dragster pilot by folding the car back into him
 
Who said to use the cable to catch the cars, the nets that the planes are cought by are ready to fly in hrs, granted the net system would damage a race car differently, but the big difference is the blunt trauma caused when the speed is stopped to short, Gary's car spinning probably helped that factor, these great nets have killed at least one dragster pilot by folding the car back into him
Mark, there are multiple references to aircraft carrier arresting gear in this thread. The arresting gear on an aircraft carrier consists of four (or three) arresting cables spread across the landing area and raised four inches off the deck as I described. The net you're referring to is called a barricade and is only used in extreme emergencies.

But alright, lets just refer to the barricade and forget the cables altogether. The differences between trying to stop an aircraft that's travelling at roughly 150 knots and a fast moving race car, sometimes in excess of 200 M.P.H. are worth considering. In the case of a funny car, there's at least some frontal area to absorb the impact with the net, but with a dragster there's next to nothing - header pipes and rear slicks are your best bet (more on this in a second). An aircraft, on the other hand, has wings that are able to engage and absorb energy from the net. In fact, the nose of an aircraft usually slides right through the barricade, thus allowing the wings to absorb all, or most of the energy. The nose of a race car, funny car or otherwise, is generally required to take the initial hit because race cars, by design, are narrow with very little additional width (like wings). Had the front end of Mark Niver's dragster passed through the opening like a jet's nose does, and the net engaged headers and/or slicks, he'd have likely walked away unscathed. So do you sacrifice net area to allow for that? And if so, what's left for the driver to engage the net, meaning: how wide is too wide?

What I think Mr. Skloss is really referring to above is the functionality of the existing nets and trying to figure out a way to make the catch net system at the shorter tracks work more like an aircraft carriers barricade system. I'm sure there are ways to do that, but my guess is it involves extending the run-out after engagement... and the problem, as I understand it, is that there isn't any more room for run-out... unless you shorten the shutdown area even more than it already is.

And lastly, getting back to the original point of the thread - the delay - contrary to your belief that "the nets that the planes are caught by are ready to fly in hours," nothing could be further from the truth. When we barricaded an F/A-18 (as described in an earlier post), we cancelled the next day's flight schedule because we can't fly without the barricade in place and it takes hours to remove the old one (because it's junk), inspect the system and replace the barricade with a new one.

One final note, an aircraft that's approaching the ship for a barricaded landing always puts the arresting hook down (unless damage to the hook is the cause of the emergency) with the hope of catching an arresting wire in addition to engaging the barricade. When that happens, as was the case with the jet I observed, the arresting gear absorbs the majority of the energy and the barricade just finishes the job... but the barricade is still junk afterward. In fact, I have a piece of it hanging in my office as a memento.
 
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Mark, there are multiple references to aircraft carrier arresting gear in this thread. The arresting gear on an aircraft carrier consists of four (or three) arresting cables spread across the landing area and raised four inches off the deck as I described. The net you're referring to is called a barricade and is only used in extreme emergencies.

But alright, lets just refer to the barricade and forget the cables altogether. The differences between trying to stop an aircraft that's travelling at roughly 150 knots and a fast moving race car, sometimes in excess of 200 M.P.H. are worth considering. In the case of a funny car, there's at least some frontal area to absorb the impact with the net, but with a dragster there's next to nothing - header pipes and rear slicks are your best bet (more on this in a second). An aircraft, on the other hand, has wings that are able to engage and absorb energy from the net. In fact, the nose of an aircraft usually slides right through the barricade, thus allowing the wings to absorb all, or most of the energy. The nose of a race car, funny car or otherwise, is generally required to take the initial hit because race cars, by design, are narrow with very little additional width (like wings). Had the front end of Mark Niver's dragster passed through the opening like a jet's nose does, and the net engaged headers and/or slicks, he'd have likely walked away unscathed. So do you sacrifice net area to allow for that? And if so, what's left for the driver to engage the net, meaning: how wide is too wide?

What I think Mr. Skloss is really referring to above is the functionality of the existing nets and trying to figure out a way to make the catch net system at the shorter tracks work more like an aircraft carriers barricade system. I'm sure there are ways to do that, but my guess is it involves extending the run-out after engagement... and the problem, as I understand it, is that there isn't any more room for run-out... unless you shorten the shutdown area even more than it already is.

And lastly, getting back to the original point of the thread - the delay - contrary to your belief that "the nets that the planes are caught by are ready to fly in hours," nothing could be further from the truth. When we barricaded an F/A-18 (as described in an earlier post), we cancelled the next day's flight schedule because we can't fly without the barricade in place and it takes hours to remove the old one (because it's junk), inspect the system and replace the barricade with a new one.

One final note, an aircraft that's approaching the ship for a barricaded landing always puts the arresting hook down (unless damage to the hook is the cause of the emergency) with the hope of catching an arresting wire in addition to engaging the barricade. When that happens, as was the case with the jet I observed, the arresting gear absorbs the majority of the energy and the barricade just finishes the job... but the barricade is still junk afterward. In fact, I have a piece of it hanging in my office as a memento.
Gordon, not sure if it's been mention but I would like to thank you for your service, if it wasn't for your stance on freedom we wouldn't have the rights we do today.
 
Gordon, not sure if it's been mention but I would like to thank you for your service, if it wasn't for your stance on freedom we wouldn't have the rights we do today.
You, sir, are very welcome. It was an honor and a privilege to serve and wear the cloth of this nation... and yes, despite her faults, I still believe we are living in the greatest nation the world has to offer.
 
I'm talking about using the first catch net itself as a arresting system instead of just a single cable 4" off the ground. Second, with the spring back of the first net it wadded up the car, and the net twisted around the wadded up car. If the car was on fire, or had caught fire while it twisted up in the first net could he have got out quick enough. Since they didn't show on tv (or I didn't see it) how he got out, I'd bet it took a bit of time to get him out. No matter what the car is going to get torn up, but it needs to stop a car so a driver isn't completely trapped in the arresting system.

A catch net ended the driving career of Doug Kerhulas who was in a coma for awhile when one of the cables in the net snapped back, and hit him on the helmet.

With the Speed he was carrying when he hit the Net a more Appropriate Title would be Catch Net saved Drivers life by preventing him from hitting the Armco Barrier that was a short distance past it, it was unfortunate he was injured by the Cable hitting his Helmet, but the alternative would have been much worse.
 
Gordon, I too would like to thank You for your service, Thanks for the explanation on the aircraft nets, I don't remember the country were the track is located that has a net attached to two earthmover tires, 1 on each side at about 800 to a 1,000 ft so that if you hit the net you drag the tires for for a short distance, much less blunt impact, I thought the arresting turbines on the ship could be better used in this fashion using the existing nets at the track, thanks again for the lesson
 
Have you guys ever seen a car at wide open throttle plow into the end of a track? Really interesting thing to see. I can tell you this much, as long as the engines running its not stopping until it hits something and even then it will try to keep on going, doesn't matter how long the track is, I know this wasn't what happened with Gary, but if you ever get a car with a stuck throttle wide open, it will keep going until it either runs out of fuel, blows up, or hits something. Doesn't matter how long your shutdown is.
 
The deal with Johnny West was with the ruptured fuel line, the throttle wasn't stuck open it was running lean because of the ruptured fuel line.

Now this is a throttle stuck wide open!
 
regarding catch net, cable system in place @ sydney, aus. dragstrip as referenced by rusty gregory in post #36; there were pics
of it years ago in previous thread....rusty says it works, i remember seeing pics and thinking what a simple, but effective system? nhra and i'm guessing a lot of racers obviously know what they have at sydney and choose to accept and use what nhra has in place presently.
 

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