Team Army (1 Viewer)

[johnny]

That was more or less a rhetorical question.
Yes, I know that PS cars have gone astray from that concept, but it's not as crazy as what's happening with the bikes.

Harley used a clean sheet of paper and does not have a single production part in their engines. If you get the chance to start from scratch and can't hack it, then maybe you're beating a dead horse (or an obsolete engine combination).

What's next? A 400 cubic inch Briggs & Stratton single cylinder?

The paper wasn't that clean. It had rules on it. The Harley's were in the class from it's onset. The current engines were designed after a rules revision. The results speak for themselves. Two well designed, competitive, single purpose V-Twins. At the end of the day, this is an example of the rules working to the betterment of the class, after a few necessary adjustments.

The issue(s) today is/are different. The alleged 6.90 index, and the revision of the rules based on the performance of a single entity are at the top of the list. Further, to not penalize the V-Twins collectively would be next. Now the inlines have created an issue based on Angelle's stellar numbers.

NHRA is overdue to respond.

 

[megadeth]

Here ya go! NHRA News: NHRA announces weight adjustment for Pro Stock Motorcycles (6/26/2007)

Buells get 5lbs back while Harley and Suzuki gain 5 now they all wieght the same let the true racing begin!

 

[johnny]

Good enough for me.

 

[Vicious]

Good enough for me too.

Now let's get back to arguin' about those stinkin' redlights!

 

[Dave]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Bennett
That was more or less a rhetorical question.
Yes, I know that PS cars have gone astray from that concept, but it's not as crazy as what's happening with the bikes.

Harley used a clean sheet of paper and does not have a single production part in their engines. If you get the chance to start from scratch and can't hack it, then maybe you're beating a dead horse (or an obsolete engine combination).

What's next? A 400 cubic inch Briggs & Stratton single cylinder?

The paper wasn't that clean. It had rules on it. The Harley's were in the class from it's onset. The current engines were designed after a rules revision. The results speak for themselves. Two well designed, competitive, single purpose V-Twins. At the end of the day, this is an example of the rules working to the betterment of the class, after a few necessary adjustments.

The issue(s) today is/are different. The alleged 6.90 index, and the revision of the rules based on the performance of a single entity are at the top of the list. Further, to not penalize the V-Twins collectively would be next. Now the inlines have created an issue based on Angelle's stellar numbers.

NHRA is overdue to respond.

I'll have to agree with you on this one Dan. The fact is, all things being equal, which is what everyone seems to be complaining about here, the V-Twins just can't compete with the inlines, so they have to give them more cubic inches. Everytime one of the engine designs makes any performance improvements now NHRA will have to adjust the rules to compensate. Every time they do compensate, someone will be complaining, so get used to it. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

What happens if BMW jumps into the mix? Another set of rules for horizontally-opposed engines? They did it for the V-Twins.

As far as not penalizing the V-Twins collectively, where are the complaints on behalf os the Suzukis? I believe Kawasakis are inlines, aren't they? Yet they are 50 lbs. lighter (now 55) than the inline Suzukis. Where was the uproar when that happened?

 

[john]

I believe Kawasakis are inlines, aren't they? Yet they are 50 lbs. lighter (now 55) than the inline Suzukis. Where was the uproar when that happened?

I think the lighter weight is for inline 4 valve engines @ a smaller displacment, a combo that doesn't appear very often in competition.

As far as the different cubic inch rules for inline and Vs it gets problematic. The fans WANT the twins out there, so the rules need to work.

All in all, I would say so far it has been a little more exciting in PSB this year.

 

[Jim]

Quote:



What happens if BMW jumps into the mix? Another set of rules for horizontally-opposed engines? They did it for the V-Twins.

?

God! If you thought Suzukis didn't sound like mototrcycles, can you imagine NO SOUND AT ALL?!?!

 

[none]

Hey Dan,

Why don't you give us a list of production Suzuki parts that are used on the race engines? I'll give you one to get you started they use a production case and then modify it to the point that even it's mother wouldn't recognize it. You can pick up from there.

The stuff Angelle was refering to was Prefamulated Amulite (sp?) and I think she may have been confused. She said it is NASA technology, in reality I believe that it is Star Trek stuff-LOL

Alan

 

[john]

After the .87, you would think the NHRA tech staff would have found Dylithium Crystals in the tank!

 

[Dave]

I think the lighter weight is for inline 4 valve engines @ a smaller displacment, a combo that doesn't appear very often in competition.

As far as the different cubic inch rules for inline and Vs it gets problematic. The fans WANT the twins out there, so the rules need to work.

All in all, I would say so far it has been a little more exciting in PSB this year.

Actually, the rule book doesn't specify engine type for the weight breaks, except for the Suzukis and V-Twins, just manufacturer. I guess a Kawasaki or Honda can run either combination, two or four valve. Further into the rules it specifies number of valves to cubic inch limit but does not specify what brand of engine concerning the inlines. I don't know if a two valve Kawasaki even exists but the opportunity is there. Maybe it has been tried and they still aren't competitive. If so, maybe NHRA should give them some more breaks to make them competitve.

And yes, it is problematic to have different cubic inch limits. The real problem is going to be when they get down to the final two races and someone comes out with .05 on the field. What is going to happen then? Are they going to add weight to that engine combo for the last race?

I really don't have a favorite in this class so I really don't care who wins, I just don't like the different rules for different engines. It's too much like NASCAR, one week they penalize the Chevy's, then the next week it's the Ford's, and on and on. But maybe I'm wrong. It seems to be working for them.

 

[nick name]

Hey Dan,

Why don't you give us a list of production Suzuki parts that are used on the race engines? I'll give you one to get you started they use a production case and then modify it to the point that even it's mother wouldn't recognize it. You can pick up from there.

The stuff Angelle was refering to was Prefamulated Amulite (sp?) and I think she may have been confused. She said it is NASA technology, in reality I believe that it is Star Trek stuff-LOL

Alan

Yes, I'm aware of that, but there's a significant difference between the development of the inliines and the v twins.

Every part on the Suzuki is a refinement or strengthening of a stock part other than the clutch - and that part might be argued anyhow. The H-D engines don't even have the same LOCATIONS for a lot of the parts compared to the production versions.

The carb and exhaust placement, bearing configuration, cam placement, and even valve angle (I think) are the same as the stock 1100 - 1150 Suzuki.

This is getting to be a distasteful discussion, especially since I totally respect people like Johnny Kirkwood and his contributions to the sport.

All I can say is an explanation of my basis for beliefs. I'm all about technology and the improvement of the breed. Let the smartest racers and the best ideas win. That's not what's happening here.

Like I said before, this is Pro Stock Motorcycle and was SUPPOSED to be a showcase for whoever could get the most performance out of an existing vehicle - not Unlimited Boutique Engine Gas.

I'm not sure there are too many people who I respect more than George Bryce and Byron Hines, so none of what I've written should be taken as a slam against them. They've taken the existing rules and done what genuises do.

Damn, Top Fuel is supposedly the top, unlimited quest for acceleration but we don't even let them come up with hybrid, single purpose engine designs. Why did H-D get the green light?

A long time ago, George seemed pretty excited when he told me about the S&S deal he put together. I had my doubts, but figured it anyone could do it, it was him.

I'd probably feel a lot better about the whole situation if the Harley version being raced was at least a modified and strengthened version of the V-Rod instead of something that only exists in the Vance & Hines shops.

 

[nick name]

And as an added thought, I keep hearing that Muzzy is in the process of a H-D type development process for the Kawasaki ZX-14 engine.

"Here's the blueprint. Just put a part number on it for me."

If this comes to fruition - a 2007 inline engine using the latest technology - I have a feeling that all the other players are going to hate the game and NHRA is going to have a REAL mess to untangle.

For those unaware, the Suzuki design that others have to get advantages to be able to compete against was last used in production in 1986. That engine made about 100 horsepower off the assembly line. 2007 assembly line Superbikes make probably 160 - 175, maybe more.

Now put those engineering advances in the hands of a skilled R&D person....

 

[johnny]

And as an added thought, I keep hearing that Muzzy is in the process of a H-D type development process for the Kawasaki ZX-14 engine.

"Here's the blueprint. Just put a part number on it for me."

If this comes to fruition - a 2007 inline engine using the latest technology - I have a feeling that all the other players are going to hate the game and NHRA is going to have a REAL mess to untangle.

For those unaware, the Suzuki design that others have to get advantages to be able to compete against was last used in production in 1986. That engine made about 100 horsepower off the assembly line. 2007 assembly line Superbikes make probably 160 - 175, maybe more.

Now put those engineering advances in the hands of a skilled R&D person....

Pro Stock Motorcycles not unlike Pro Stock cars, have little resemblance with their stock namesake vehicles.

Dan, first and foremost, your arguments are elegant, articulate, and valid. Having said that, the spirit of the original rules has been altered. This alteration has resulted in a new generation of Pro Stockers. The class is better for it. Muzzy's development of the ZX14 and Tartaglia's development of a new Suzuki will represent the "rules revised inline". The interesting part of the new engines will be their relativity to the old ones. Let me explain. What has been a well known problem with the class is OEM participation. They have, for years, regarded Pro Stock as vintage racing with no desire to continue participation. The opening up of the rules is an attempt to revitalize their interest. The problem is, the old designs, with their revisions work. Kawasaki is on board with Muzzy, after being hosed for years by the old rules. Suzuki (DSR) seems willing to participate as well. My question is, why should/would they? With the new (perceived) 6.90 index, is it worth the cost of development for anything new. The current designs are reliable and run the number. To legislate an elapsed time ceiling is contrary the purpose of progress. If I'm Muzzy or DSR, I test until I can run under the number, and compete with a weight adjusted for the conditions bike. A compelling prospect isn't it?

At the end of the day, in my opinion, the index is the potential new problem, not the engine configurations. To legislate elapsed time takes the "Pro" out of Pro Stock.

 

[Dave]

I don't believe they are trying to keep the bikes at 6.90. If they were, why only add 5 lbs. and give 5 lbs. back to the Buells? If, as has been stated by people that know more about this than I, 10 lbs. = .04 sec., then 5 lbs. would equal .02 seconds. Angelle could still run an .89 if you assume this, and with further development, all will quickly improve on that. I think they would have just added 10 lbs. to the Suzukis and Harleys if they were intent on slowing the bikes down rather then trying to keep them competitive.

 

[Vicious]

I don't believe they are trying to keep the bikes at 6.90. If they were, why only add 5 lbs. and give 5 lbs. back to the Buells? If, as has been stated by people that know more about this than I, 10 lbs. = .04 sec., then 5 lbs. would equal .02 seconds. Angelle could still run an .89 if you assume this, and with further development, all will quickly improve on that. I think they would have just added 10 lbs. to the Suzukis and Harleys if they were intent on slowing the bikes down rather then trying to keep them competitive.

Dave, Here's what George Bryce stated at another site:

Well guys and gals....it looks like we are going to have a new class.....6.90 heads up.....Top Gas ? No. Pro Gas? naw. What should we call it? If you go quicker than 6.90 you break out!!!! They will add weight or take away cubes!!!!I am not kidding!!!!! This is happening! we have tried to go quicker for 25 years in NHRA....we have found the limit! 6.90 at 195. You can win as long as you do not go quicker.....So at Indy this year.....they will interveiw me.....how are you guys doing, George? Well Gary, we are trying to win this round...it cooled off, and the wind has turned into a tail wind....I hope we dont breakout!!!!!!!! This is real Folks.........................Someone .....that has a lot of clout...alot of pull...is tired of workin hard enough and spending money to out run us. So they used their POWER to put a limit...index on our class!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Lets go fishing. See you at the lake Marc....I want to go fishing for more power.... no peace out, GB3

While he is being facetious to some extent, if he says that NHRA notified him that they will slow down anybody going quicker than 6.90, you can take it to the bank that is what they said. The only question is whether or not they will follow through with this threat.

 

[Dave]

Dave, Here's what George Bryce stated at another site:

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Bryce
Well guys and gals....it looks like we are going to have a new class.....6.90 heads up.....Top Gas ? No. Pro Gas? naw. What should we call it? If you go quicker than 6.90 you break out!!!! They will add weight or take away cubes!!!!I am not kidding!!!!! This is happening! we have tried to go quicker for 25 years in NHRA....we have found the limit! 6.90 at 195. You can win as long as you do not go quicker.....So at Indy this year.....they will interveiw me.....how are you guys doing, George? Well Gary, we are trying to win this round...it cooled off, and the wind has turned into a tail wind....I hope we dont breakout!!!!!!!! This is real Folks.........................Someone .....that has a lot of clout...alot of pull...is tired of workin hard enough and spending money to out run us. So they used their POWER to put a limit...index on our class!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Lets go fishing. See you at the lake Marc....I want to go fishing for more power.... no peace out, GB3

While he is being facetious to some extent, if he says that NHRA notified him that they will slow down anybody going quicker than 6.90, you can take it to the bank that is what they said. The only question is whether or not they will follow through with this threat.

I wouldn't dispute anything he says, and I'm not saying that he is wrong, but I don't see anywhere in that quote where he said NHRA told him that, he just says it is happening. Sometimes perception is reality, and may be in this instance, but not always.

My question still is, why would they give the Suzukis and Harleys 5 lbs. when they could have just as easily given them 10 lbs. to even out the weight and delay another adjustment "to keep the bikes at 6.90"?

 

[nick name]

At the end of the day, in my opinion, the index is the potential new problem, not the engine configurations. To legislate elapsed time takes the "Pro" out of Pro Stock.

You've reduced the issue to a nutshell and I couldn't agree more.

I'll admit that things have changed, though in many ways I don't think it's for the better. While I very much appreciate the new interest towards the class since the entry of the twins, I still think NHRA has lost their way.

At some time after Tom Compton took over, the shining light that drives the NHRA stopped being competition and was changed to entertainment. Of course a sport has to be entertaining, but we've lost our grounding as far as I'm concerned.

The Chase points format and the micromanagement of PSM is all about a more "entertaining" product with little regard to the integrity of competition. It would have been unthinkable just a few years ago but in Glendora's heedless rush to be just like NASCAR (as far as growth, money, and power) it's now the prime directive.

As I've written before, can anyone imagine Force being hit with weight, fuel, or overdrive restrictions just so he didn't dominate an entire decade of racing?
He ran away with the points for most of those years, yet according to the present powers-that-be it was a bad product and him losing a few years by a handful of points would have had more drama.

As far as I'm concerned, if you have to have drama go watch a soap opera. That's the only place I can think of where it's guaranteed to appear. Real life (and real racing) may or may not have drama but we love it just the same. What happens when the "drama" gets to be old hat for the fans? Do we merge with Pinks and wait to see if Force loses his Mustang to Capps? Is that what racing's all about?

Sadly, I fear the time has come where we're seeing the first light of a new NHRA getting its start in the bike class. Where else would you start but in the least funded, least powerful professional class where the racer organization spends a lot of effort at the end of each year just convincing the brass that they deserve a place in the show?

 

[none]

You've reduced the issue to a nutshell and I couldn't agree more.

I'll admit that things have changed, though in many ways I don't think it's for the better. While I very much appreciate the new interest towards the class since the entry of the twins, I still think NHRA has lost their way.

Lost their way.........that sounds so much better than you can't fix stupid

 

[megadeth]

Lost their way.........that sounds so much better than you can't fix stupid

I agree but "You can't fix stupid" makes a better shirt!

 

[megadeth]

You've reduced the issue to a nutshell and I couldn't agree more.

I'll admit that things have changed, though in many ways I don't think it's for the better. While I very much appreciate the new interest towards the class since the entry of the twins, I still think NHRA has lost their way.

At some time after Tom Compton took over, the shining light that drives the NHRA stopped being competition and was changed to entertainment. Of course a sport has to be entertaining, but we've lost our grounding as far as I'm concerned.

The Chase points format and the micromanagement of PSM is all about a more "entertaining" product with little regard to the integrity of competition. It would have been unthinkable just a few years ago but in Glendora's heedless rush to be just like NASCAR (as far as growth, money, and power) it's now the prime directive.

As I've written before, can anyone imagine Force being hit with weight, fuel, or overdrive restrictions just so he didn't dominate an entire decade of racing?
He ran away with the points for most of those years, yet according to the present powers-that-be it was a bad product and him losing a few years by a handful of points would have had more drama.

As far as I'm concerned, if you have to have drama go watch a soap opera. That's the only place I can think of where it's guaranteed to appear. Real life (and real racing) may or may not have drama but we love it just the same. What happens when the "drama" gets to be old hat for the fans? Do we merge with Pinks and wait to see if Force loses his Mustang to Capps? Is that what racing's all about?

Sadly, I fear the time has come where we're seeing the first light of a new NHRA getting its start in the bike class. Where else would you start but in the least funded, least powerful professional class where the racer organization spends a lot of effort at the end of each year just convincing the brass that they deserve a place in the show?

The best assessment of what is happening by far Dan!