NHRA will allow any engine in any chassis for 2018 (2 Viewers)

[mikebcurve]

Ford and Dodge would definitely sponsor a car with a so called Chevy engine if they found value in it as a rolling billboard. Look at Antron with Toyota as a sponsor. Before someone says it is different because pro stock is suppose to be factory hot rods please tell me when the last time one of them had a single part from a factory car on them. They have not in decades. What difference does the engine make when only a small percentage of viewers even know what is under the hood? It would be interesting to see the reaction if Allen Johnson showed up next season in Denver and won with a so called Chevy engine in it. Would everyone turn on him? I bet Dodge would be happy having their brand on display in the winner circle. (For the record I'm not suggesting that would be ever happen.)

 

[ironpony]

If AJ showed up with a DRCE, the mountain would collapse. AJ would rather stay home than run a Chevy, hence his retirement.

 

[none]

If AJ showed up with a DRCE, the mountain would collapse. AJ would rather stay home than run a Chevy, hence his retirement.

AJ retired because his sponsor was quitting. He was planning to do that at the end of 2015 when MOPAR was going to Elite. Marathon came along and kept him out there two more years. He stated that he wasn't going to spend his own money anymore, and that he was tired of beating the bushes looking for the funding. 22 years was enough. The rules had nothing to do with it.

You are ABSOLUTELY correct that he would NEVER run a Chevy.
Alan

 

[none]

I went back and did a little research on the effect of the 2016 rule changes on AJ. These are facts, you can look them up yourself if you want to.

2016 was the first year of EFI as well as 10,500 RPM limit.

At the end of 2015 Allen was planning to retire, by the time Marathon had signed on Roy had been working on customer stuff for European customers. Which were still running carburetors. So they were behind on EFI development.

Here's the 2016 stats.
In 24 events AJ qualified in the top half 16 times. Denver (which he won) was not one of them, he actually qualified 10th. As a matter of fact he only qualified lower than 10th twice all year. 13th at Norwalk (where he still won a round) and 11th at Vegas 2.

In the first eight races the only drivers to beat him on performance were Greg and Jason. He did lose to Deric Kramer on a holeshot in Phoenix, but other than that the only drivers to beat him were the KB team. You may recall, they also beat everybody else, winning every race up to Denver.

Not counting the four wide, and the holeshot to Kramer in Phoenix, his first first round loss was at Charlotte 2. So in the first 17 races, (again, not counting the four wide) he had one first round loss on a holeshot, he advanced 16 times. He also qualified in the top half 14 times. Does that sound like a guy with no power?

After Indy he entered the Countdown to the Championship seeded fourth. The top three were Jason, Greg and Bo (All KB cars.) So this car that was handicapped by the rules was better than all the Elite powered cars, all the Gray powered cars, and everybody else. Pretty good for a guy whose engine was crippled by the rules, wouldn't you say?

Those are the facts. This is my opinion. I believe the biggest issue they had was no teammates. As the rest of the teams, started coming around to the KB level Elite had three full time cars, and a few part timers. Gray had two full time cars and a few part timers. They learned at an accelerated rate. when you have 12 or 16 qualifying runs to compare every weekend vs. 4, you have a HUGE advantage over time. If Allen would have had another car to compare and learn with I think he would have been even better. And he was pretty darn good even without one. The new rules certainly did not legislate the HEMI out of being competitive.

Alan

 

[ironpony]

What Roy and AJ accomplished was very impressive, especially considering how they did it. They were always competitive, won races and were able to win 2 championships, Has GM won more? yes, they also have 3-4 times the amount of entries in the class. Simple math says they better win.
I am a MOPAR diehard always have been always will be.
Mopar and Ford took a big hit in the factoring days and they never really came back to play in NHRA's sandbox, add to that the beating Mopar took in Nascar and it is understandable.
Racing is about development and ingenuity Mopar developed the HEMI, dominated 2 major motorsports and where basically banned from both.
PS will never be the same without Roy and AJ there hopefully NHRA will solve the problem of cost associated with the class.
If one of two "billionaires" drops out it is over, same in nitro if one of two "retire" the class is in big trouble too.
This next year is going to be interesting, I am hearing of some Camaro teams running HEMIS, that should shake things up. Hopefully the new "slick aero" Mustang with a xxxx power plant whoops up on some big guys, it might just save things.

 

[none]

What Roy and AJ accomplished was very impressive, especially considering how they did it. They were always competitive, won races and were able to win 2 championships, Has GM won more? yes, they also have 3-4 times the amount of entries in the class. Simple math says they better win.
I am a MOPAR diehard always have been always will be.
Mopar and Ford took a big hit in the factoring days and they never really came back to play in NHRA's sandbox, add to that the beating Mopar took in Nascar and it is understandable.
Racing is about development and ingenuity Mopar developed the HEMI, dominated 2 major motorsports and where basically banned from both.
PS will never be the same without Roy and AJ there hopefully NHRA will solve the problem of cost associated with the class.
If one of two "billionaires" drops out it is over, same in nitro if one of two "retire" the class is in big trouble too.
This next year is going to be interesting, I am hearing of some Camaro teams running HEMIS, that should shake things up. Hopefully the new "slick aero" Mustang with a xxxx power plant whoops up on some big guys, it might just save things.

Ken,

Would love to have a beer and a conversation with you sometime. I'm sure you know I spent five years trying to make MOPAR win races. The last year of the wedge and the first few years with the new HEMI, I lived it every day.

I'm not going to argue about what happened 40+ years ago, I wasn't there. It was a different era and I don't see it as relevant to what is happening today. Today NHRA made no rule specifically against any one brand. They made a rule to help save all the teams from themselves. And while all of them may have bitched about it, by the end of 2017 EVERY SINGLE one of them saved a pile of money that they would have spent without the rule. They certainly may have spent it in other places, but the rule saved them money where it was designed to.

If you have been following as long as I think then you have to know that over the years MOPAR has moved their NHRA marketing dollars around on a number of occasions. Do you remember when they dropped the Mike Dunn driven Top Fuel car when he was leading the points? Or when they left Tommy Johnson's team when they were running well? How about when they joined and then left Dean Skuza?

MOPAR has for years tried to get the best bang for the buck even if sometimes it didn't make sense to the casual observer. I understand that and am glad that they see value in NHRA even though they change the program on a regular basis, they have never left us, and I hope they never do.

The thing that is pretty much guaranteed to get a response out of me is when NHRA is accused of something unfairly. I am proud of the company and team that I am a part of. The are not perfect, but in this case (and thread) they don't deserve being bashed for penalizing the HEMIs. Because quite simply they didn't do that.

Alan

 

[mgty3whlr]

If Pro Stock is too expensive, change rules to cut back on expense like no titanium, smaller motors, run carb or EFI - whatever you can afford as long as it's competitive. Instead they made it a GM playground.

They already did that when KB team was running more exotic metals than titanium, They were also using roller cam bearings, etc. The KB team is on the top of their game because I think that many forget that Jason used to work in the engine dept. for Joe Gibbs racing. Their performance advantages are from him keeping in touch with the NASCAR guys and not burning bridges.

As far as why KB was dominating for so many years, It took the other teams to figure out that they were running at 12,000 rpm where as the other guys were running lets say 11,000. Just like when Del was watching the replays and figured out that the headers were laid back more than everyone else.

It's been posted here before by ALLEN about the valve springs and their failure. (Allen, paste that article here again).

They are saving a $hit ton of money and time between rounds now because they don't have to do as much spring replacement due to the 10,5000 rpm limit.

Yea just like most of you guys, I'd love to hear a P/S car motor spin at 13,000 but it's not feasible moneywise unless you have sponsor who peels money off like a rolodex.

 

[ironpony]

Alan, I did not reread the entire thread but I do not think I said this latest rule change "targeted" the HEMI, I believe my point always was that McGaha who has a HEMI program said the rpm limit killed the HEMI's chances and I believe the NHRA should of known this because of their tech knowledge and maybe should of handled it differently.
And about that beer, you buying? I usually get to 10 or so events a year, 2019 will be ALL of them, part of my and the wifes bucket list. Wife, the dog and I are loading up and following the teams around the country.

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

Today NHRA made no rule specifically against any one brand. They made a rule to help save all the teams from themselves. And while all of them may have bitched about it, by the end of 2017 EVERY SINGLE one of them saved a pile of money that they would have spent without the rule. They certainly may have spent it in other places, but the rule saved them money where it was designed to.

Riddle me this:

If the rumor of the racers agreed to essentially give a half-million dollars in prize money, then how important is the cost of operation? When you look at that, it sure looks like the NHRA is just doing what they can to pacify the very few wealthy and protect their playground.

That said, why the resistance to take the opportunity of a struggling class that has migrated away from its original purpose as the professional factory hot rod class, and return it to where it truly belongs? As has been said, the factories are producing some pretty cool stuff that is tailor made for a return to the class' roots, and if done properly could be MUCH more financially doable than what it currently out there. As far as the manufacturers are concerned, I simply will never believe that they would've chosen what the NHRA is doing now versus biting the bullet and returning the class to its roots.

Sean D

 

[none]

They already did that when KB team was running more exotic metals than titanium, They were also using roller cam bearings, etc.

Just one quick note, we were using roller cam bearings in 1999. And we weren't the first by a long stretch. We only had 5 of them and they now have 9 but roller cam bearings are not new. We also had ceramic bearings in the driveline. They were illegal in the engine, but not the driveline. Part of the reason they can run a pint of lubricant in the trans instead of a couple of quarts, the bearings don't care and the gears don't have to slog through the oil.

That's your Pro Stock tech tip of the day! LoL

Alan

 

[none]

Riddle me this: If the rumor of the racers agreed to essentially give a half-million dollars in prize money, then how important is the cost of operation? When you look at that, it sure looks like the NHRA is just doing what they can to pacify the very few wealthy and protect their playground.

That said, why the resistance to take the opportunity of a struggling class that has migrated away from its original purpose as the professional factory hot rod class, and return it to where it truly belongs? As has been said, the factories are producing some pretty cool stuff that is tailor made for a return to the class' roots, and if done properly could be MUCH more financially doable than what it currently out there. As far as the manufacturers are concerned, I simply will never believe that they would've chosen what the NHRA is doing now versus biting the bullet and returning the class to its roots.

Sean D

Sean,
I don't know the details of what was agreed upon between the teams and NHRA so I won't comment on that. I do know that they are working together to make the class stronger.

As for the second part, NHRA has embraced the new Hot Rods even to the point of making a class and a Championship just for them. The Factory Stock Showdown races are specifically for the new muscle cars. NHRA met with all of the manufactures to get their input, and the manufacturers couldn't agree on what they wanted. So why does it have to be one or the other? Why not both?

Here's what I think, a current 5oo C.I. Pro Stock engine has no use for anything other than Pro Stock or limited use in COMP. They're not good for Top Sportsman, Pro Mod, or anything else. And I personally don't believe that obsoleting millions of dollars of inventory and investment with the stroke of a pen is a good idea on any level. I know I wouldn't want my inventory to be made worthless in that manner.

Just my opinion,
Alan

 

[none]

Alan, I did not reread the entire thread but I do not think I said this latest rule change "targeted" the HEMI, I believe my point always was that McGaha who has a HEMI program said the rpm limit killed the HEMI's chances and I believe the NHRA should of known this because of their tech knowledge and maybe should of handled it differently.
And about that beer, you buying? I usually get to 10 or so events a year, 2019 will be ALL of them, part of my and the wifes bucket list. Wife, the dog and I are loading up and following the teams around the country.

Ken
Didn't mean to sound like I was accusing you, just responding to the tone of the thread. And my point was that the HEMI was still very competitive even at the 10,500 RPM limit. Does it take work to get it there? Sure does, but it can has has been done. A HEMI (even the new generation Pro Stock HEMI) is different from a GM, and what works for one can't be carbon copied to the other, just ask Elite. But Roy Johnson has always been a HEMI guy and he knew what was needed. I know what Chris McGaha said, I also know what Roy Johnson did. And I'm sure that if McGaha was concentrating all his effort on the HEMI that his performance would get there quickly, he's a really smart guy, but he doesn't have the singular focus on the HEMI that Roy does.

And I have never been afraid to buy beer, just let me know what event and we'll figure it out.

Alan

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

So why does it have to be one or the other? Why not both?

Here's what I think, a current 5oo C.I. Pro Stock engine has no use for anything other than Pro Stock or limited use in COMP. They're not good for Top Sportsman, Pro Mod, or anything else. And I personally don't believe that obsoleting millions of dollars of inventory and investment with the stroke of a pen is a good idea on any level. I know I wouldn't want my inventory to be made worthless in that manner.

Just my opinion,
Alan

I just think that this was a golden opportunity to do what has needed to be done for a long time, and that's get it back to it's factory roots. As for the "why does it have to be one or the other or why not both?", I also think it's a bad idea to cater to an elite few folks. They were way late moving to EFI, so let's move forward with current technology, stay on top of things, and not let that happen again.

The factories will never agree on what to do, but if their current crop of muscle is showcased in a new Pro Stock eliminator, the performance wars will once again be on, just as the bitching about the factoring that will need to be done. But it would get worked out. The NHRA, with the exception of PSB, has done a very good job of factoring other classes with multiple combinations while maintaining a high level of parity, interest and participation, so it could be done here.

And I just don't get the train of thought of the "millions of dollars of inventory and investment" argument. Investment? Yeah. But inventory? I just don't see it. These races, especially from a sponsorship standpoint, are run year-to-year, so having that much inventory laying around doesn't seem like a smart move to me. If you have millions on the shelf and lose a marketing partner that is involved to the point of said partner making or braking your ability to race, and you lose that sponsor and can't get back out there for a couple of years, that inventory will likely be obsolete, so........,., And when you're talking about this current crop of Pro Stock elite, money isn't the object anyway, it's interest; their own personal interest, so what's the point anyway. Not good for the overall health of the class.

Like you, just my opinion.

Sean

 

[fxconde]

What Pro stock should still be!

 

[Rajunz]

I think it stinks like a catalytic convertor
It will guarantee I lose all interest at 12:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 am 1/1/18.
~
I've always liked Pro Stock right from the second Jenkins launched at the first PS at the Winters looooooooooooooooong ago.

I'll pretty sure that I'll quote you on that sometime next year Milt....just saying!!!

 

[Rajunz]

in 1982 I bought my first car - 1969 Roadrunner 383 for $800

in 1985 I bought my first new car - 1985 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo for under $9000

in 1989 I bought my first new truck - 1989 Dodge Dakota Convertible 4x4 for $19,117

it's 2017, trucks are $30 - $80 thousand, cars are $25 - $90 thousand and is it any wonder kids today Uber or ride the bus?


(BTW I still have all those...cheaper to keep 'em!)

Just curious Bob, have you only bought Mopars in your lifetime?

 

[Rajunz]

You know how it works, you always have money for what you want and not for what you need.

....."Spending money you don't have, to buy things you don't need, to impress people you don't know!"

 

[stitcherbob]

Just curious Bob, have you only bought Mopars in your lifetime?

Mostly....still have my 73 Imperial coupe, 72 Polara sedan, and two 2000's 300M s
I have owned a Corvair convertible, a 46 Crosley, and a 66 Buick. They were sold...a rarity in my life...
I currently have a 57 Studebaker Hawk, a Nash Metropolitan convertible, my Grandpa's 77 Cadillac,and a 57 BMW Isetta as my non Mopars.

I have only one Ford, a custom and a restoration project, but after the builder was finished it doesn't look like a 39 Ford!

 

[Cliff]

Bob, what is the car in the photo? If you tell me it's a "39 Ford, I'm jumping off the roof.

 

[stitcherbob]

Bob, what is the car in the photo? If you tell me it's a "39 Ford, I'm jumping off the roof.

it's a "sport custom" built in 1952 in Michigan on a modified 1939 Ford chassis.....great, now we got to call an ambulance

It has (4!) '52 Chevy front fenders and '52 Chevy rear 1/4s, a '37 Chevy sedan gave up it's roof for the hood (grille is the rear window) and trunk lid, and a '37 Packard gave up it's dash, headlight bucket hood scoop, windshield and some of the folding top frame.
The original builder was supposedly pulled over and invited to Ford by a wagonload of their designers. He got to see an early clay of a 2 seat sporty car they were doing (in '53) and some of his car's styling appears on the finished 1955 'Bird....crazy but true
It started out with a 3/4 race '46 Merc flattie, then got a '50 Olds Rocket V8, then something else later (looks like early Hemi maybe)

http://www.forgottenfiberglass.com/...red-ford-times-august-1954/#jp-carousel-11660