Why wouldn't this work? (1 Viewer)

[Bross Hawg]

This poor horse has been beaten so many times it is now just a bloody mess. You guys all want to see a shroud over the driver in a dragster all in the name of safety, and out of the other corner of your mouths you say take away downforce. What the crap are you smoking? Limiting speed on a fuel car is as easy as limiting fuel pump size and blower overdrive. Go back to 65 GPM pumps and cut the overdrive to say 30% or so. Nuff said. Leave the aero alone.

 

[twostep]

Which raises a possible answer to my why can't they maintain 5.7G -

Probably because they don't produce 25,000 horsepower, which is the minimum it would take to maintain 5.7G acceleration as the car passes through 300MPH - and that may not be enough. Then, with no wing, what happens at the instant the driver gets out of the throttle? Interesting concept, but I can't envision it even beginning to work.

Decreasing track prep? That's a multi-headed monster, too. You take it away, it makes it unsafe for the door guys. If you just take part of it away, well, which part? How much VHT (or whatever it is they use nowadays) is enough, or too much? Is the track 1/2 concrete, all concrete? It matters....and then you deal with all the political BS, blame games and finger pointing....nah, don't like that one either.

20% blower OD, guys. 20%. Tune to that. Lots easier, and a hell of a lot less dangerous, then fiddling with the aero. If they remain at 1000', they could run 3.90/4.20, TF and FC respectively, in the 305-10 range and everybody would still have a good time.

 

[Sandman]

20% blower OD, guys. 20%. Tune to that. Lots easier, and a hell of a lot less dangerous, then fiddling with the aero. If they remain at 1000', they could run 3.90/4.20, TF and FC respectively, in the 305-10 range and everybody would still have a good time.

OK, just for the sake of discussion, let's say you make a standard blower overdrive percent. Now with the rest of the limits already in place, such as final drive ratio, inlet size, nitro percentage, spec tire, etc. you're getting dangerously close to the textbook definition of "spec" racing. What's next, just issue the cars at the gate? I don't want to watch rules-limited spec racing and neither does anyone else. But doing away with a certain amount of downforce would open up thinking, creativity and (gawd forbid) tuning ability, leveling out the field. I don't think not prepping the track is a realistic alternative, because everything BUT fuel cars need traction compound because they use mechanical grip as opposed to aero grip.
Also, I didn't mean to offend the "leave aero alone" crowd, but mark my words, the nitro classes are headed for a total lack of interest sooner than you think if someone doesn't think of something to stop the checkbook mentality.

 

[mick]

thanks jim and nick - interesting reading - the physics of drag racing is
quite mind boggling when you break down what is really happening
with mass, horsepower and velocity; and then to consider how many different
classes there are and their various combinations of horsepower/aero packages.

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

Less wing?? no track prep?? Whats next no oil down clean up??? Maybe a 10.5 tire??? DANGEROUS
If you want the cars slower, then pick a speed max and let the CC's slow their cars down. Problem solved.

 

[Sandman]

Less wing?? no track prep?? Whats next no oil down clean up??? Maybe a 10.5 tire??? DANGEROUS
If you want the cars slower, then pick a speed max and let the CC's slow their cars down. Problem solved.

They do that at the local track here, it's called bracket racing. Not exactly what I'd pay to watch...

 

[twostep]

OK, just for the sake of discussion, let's say you make a standard blower overdrive percent. Now with the rest of the limits already in place, such as final drive ratio, inlet size, nitro percentage, spec tire, etc. you're getting dangerously close to the textbook definition of "spec" racing.

Jim - they have a max overdrive rule in place now; have had for years, with the exception of Denver....

I'm not offended by the suggestion of removing aero; not at all. I just don't believe it's the direction we need to be headed. In fact, I'm really not a fan of limiting the cars at all. Nitro classes are supposed to be unlimited categories, right? But I'm also realistic and I'm aware of the staggering costs involved. If the cars must be slowed, taking boost out of them is a hell of a lot cheaper than building Spec 413 engines like they did last year.

 

[Tumbleweed]

If I remember right Alan. You talked to Alan Johnson and Austin Coil when the change over to 1000ft started. You said they told you we would never
see the cars running quicker in 1000 ft like 1320 ft. I think we are knocking on that door now. If it hasn't already been opened.

When they first announced the 1000 ft. Alan Johnson was one of the first that said publicly that it didn't matter the distance, they would end up running just as fast at 1000 as they were at the time in 1320, it was just a matter of figuring out the combinations. He wasn't the only one.......

 

[FC138fan]

Probably because they don't produce 25,000 horsepower, which is the minimum it would take to maintain 5.7G acceleration as the car passes through 300MPH - and that may not be enough. espectively, in the 305-10 range and everybody would still have a good time.

I estimated a 3.30 if they could maintain 5.7G... the quickest run last weekend was a 3.75 I think... they're not that far off with the current horsepower.

I was thinking of other variables as to why they can't maintain that rate of acceleration. If they could keep the center of gravity as far back as it is when they first hit the throttle, they might be able to do it. But I think at that time the front is either off the ground or just barely touching - which if your going 2-300 mph would be a huge risk of getting air under the car and blowing over. There's probably a thin line between maintaining that perfect balance and going over the edge, which probably gets thinner the further and faster down track you go.

 

[twostep]

But I think at that time the front is either off the ground or just barely touching - which if your going 2-300 mph would be a huge risk of getting air under the car and blowing over.

Exactly, and when the driver gets out of the throttle, the back end is comin' 'round....that's just the way aerodynamics at these speeds work....Bonneville racers learned this eons ago the hard way... you even see it at 190MPH at NASCAR races when the drafting driver 'takes the air' off the lead car's spoiler. That back end does a 180 before the Lord gets the news.

 

[steve]

There is less down force in Denver, they seem to be safe there. (except for the motors sucking every bit of air they can get)

 

[You!]

Single 1 1/2" fuel line from the tank to the pump.

 

[Sandman]

Jim - they have a max overdrive rule in place now; have had for years, with the exception of Denver....

I'm not offended by the suggestion of removing aero; not at all. I just don't believe it's the direction we need to be headed. In fact, I'm really not a fan of limiting the cars at all. Nitro classes are supposed to be unlimited categories, right? But I'm also realistic and I'm aware of the staggering costs involved. If the cars must be slowed, taking boost out of them is a hell of a lot cheaper than building Spec 413 engines like they did last year.

I'm with you about not building entire new engine combos. And to be really honest, I'm not as concerned with slowing the cars as I am leveling out the field between the "haves" and the "have-mores". Like I originally stated, lesser tracks (Seattle) always help bring the little guys up a couple notches because the traction isn't there and the guys with more experience in sketchy situations (i.e. Jim Dunn and Gary Densham) always seem to go rounds there. Contrary to what some of the guys here think, I'm not against technology, or advances in performance. If speed were NHRA's biggest worry, I'd say roll out the paver and make another 1/4 mile of shut down and get on with it. But it's not the shortness of the shut down that concerns me, it's that fuel classes are not what I remember as true racing. Let's draw a parallel between one of the greatest drag racing stories in history and today's situation. Remember when the Chi-Town f/c won the championship? Twice? Tight budget and all, they sent the big boys packing. Is there any sane person that thinks that could happen today? Does anyone really think brains can beat checkbooks? Not a snowball's chance in hell. With all the traction afforded by huge tailgates hanging off the back of wedges, the motor can use huge volumes of nitro to make huge gobs of horsepower. When things go wrong then, they go REALLY wrong, but for those who can afford it, that carnage just weeds out the weak. If DSR or JFR need to throw away motors after every single pass, that's just fine with them. And evidently it's fine with the NHRA, because after all, that's half the field right there, and to me, that's wrong. Who's looking out for Jim Head? How about Terry Haddock or Bob Bode? Do you guys really want to hear Force thank his sponsors every 22 seconds of an entire broadcast? Is that your idea of fairness? I started watching Pro/Mod and all the IHRA stuff the last couple years and you know what? When two cars pull to the line in those shows, you never know WHAT"S gonna happen. Just because someone's got a tenth on the other guy doesn't mean squat if it don't hook up! I guess I just want to see real racers have half a chance for once.

 

[twostep]

I dunno, Jim, maybe the answer is the often-suggested limitation on the number of engines allowed per race, say two, an opinion that is most often met with a big thud. I love Nostalgia TF and FC, but we have separate events for them now and I don't really think it would be in anyone's best interest to wind the clock back 30 years just to cut expenses.

I also hate thinking it takes 3-4 million dollars to campaign one fuel team for one season. Not an easy solution; hell, no two people can even agree on the problem. If the Glendora suits can't figure it out, I don't know what makes me think I can.

 

[Bullet]

Single 1 1/2" fuel line from the tank to the pump.

This would definitely slow them down but would result in the more traction than power situation.

 

[TooTall999]

I dunno, Jim, maybe the answer is the often-suggested limitation on the number of engines allowed per race, say two, an opinion that is most often met with a big thud. I love Nostalgia TF and FC, but we have separate events for them now and I don't really think it would be in anyone's best interest to wind the clock back 30 years just to cut expenses.

I also hate thinking it takes 3-4 million dollars to campaign one fuel team for one season. Not an easy solution; hell, no two people can even agree on the problem. If the Glendora suits can't figure it out, I don't know what makes me think I can.

Why not limit the teams to one block and one set of heads for the weekend? Or you have to run the block and heads you qualified with? It'd force the tuner/crew chief to make the engine live, as well as win.

 

[Bross Hawg]

Why not limit the teams to one block and one set of heads for the weekend? Or you have to run the block and heads you qualified with? It'd force the tuner/crew chief to make the engine live, as well as win.

except for 1 unpredictable variable...nitromethane.

 

[Bross Hawg]

There is less down force in Denver, they seem to be safe there. (except for the motors sucking every bit of air they can get)

They also run much slower @ Denver

 

[Mooseman]

Teams have been swapping wrecked engines round by round since the 70's, just watch the broadcasts Bobby Bennett has been posting. Everything costs more now. What once was 10 grand is now 20 or 30 or 40 or more.

 

[Heavyhauler]

Yes this horse has been whipped so badly I'm surprised the ASPCA and PITA aren't demonstrating out front.
I still advocate removing the superchargers and re-inventing the spirit of TF, innovation, imagination, unlimited injected nitro racing.
Not the bloated castrated version that NHRA forces to compete against the alcohol cars.