Nitromater
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Where is the outrage?
- Thread starter Gregg Pickens
- Start date
TR
Nitro Member
There are extra points for style, diving without looking like your diving.
would you have prefered his throttle cable broke and he never made it down the track at all !!
Wayne
Nitro Member
Post #18, on page 2!!!
"I can't believe the hipocracy on this board!!!
Jason Line cuts a .019 light in Rd 2. Then dozes to a .070 against Greg!!!
No outrage there!!!
And to DSR: I'm happy that all of the DSR teams ALWAYS race heads up! But does everyone of the drivers have to say it every time they are in front of a camera, win or lose??? I am so sick of hearing that it makes me wonder if they're trying to convince themselves that it's the right thing to do.
To each his own."
Bill, I think I was more surprised/pissed-off that Mike Dunn had very little to say about the Jason vs. Greg "race" than the actual dive itself!
Perfect 10 indeed!!!!!
FC138fan
Nitro Member
Greg's ET+RT = 6.573+.025 = 6.598
Minus Jason's 6.590 leaves 0.008.
Jason would have had to have a better then 0.008 light to have won that race. Not likely to happen since his average for this race (first and second round) was 0.025.
Jason probably didn't want to press the tree because what if he pushes too far and redlights? Then all hell breaks loose. You think he just gave a fair race making sure not to redlight?
winr
Nitro Member
ET's can be "Driver corrected" from behind alot easier than in front,
winr
Nitro Member
I've read this thread in complete bemusement.
1. No one is going to openly admit they've thrown a race because NHRA has rules against it. Since NHRA can't actually prove one way or another that a racer did go in the tank, they can't do anything. Suppose NHRA accused Racer A of diving for RACER B? Without proof they'd leave themselves open to a lawsuit that they'd probably lose. You can't accuse someone of doing something and then punish them with a loss of points or something similar without absolute proof.
Some years ago a racer allegedly bribed the starter at a national event. The "problem" was that a third party witnessed the deal being made between the driver and the starter. That third party blabbed a month or so later. Outrage ensued. The sanctioning body president made some semi-public statements about fines, suspensions and more. That was before he had a conversation with his lawyer, who told him that to take action without absolute proof would put him in legal jeopardy, so nothing was done.
Six months later the starter confessed to me, on tape, that "he offered it, and I took it."
2. "Team orders" have been issued and followed in Formula 1 for decades. After a major crackdown the open diving slowed a bit, but it still takes place today. Heck, I think it was last year when an up-and-coming driver was actually ordered to crash his car so the Safety Car would come out on the track and tighten up the field. He talked because he was super-p-----. He lost his ride and the man who gave the order was banned from F1 for life.
3. Are you so naive as to think that the four Sprint Cup cars racing for Rick Hendrick wouldn't help one another despite their having different sponsors? Heck, you hear the drivers talking about it all the time, and you can see it taking place on the track. Same with Roush-Fenway, Richard Childress ad nauseum.
4. Regarding the so-called "disparity" in Jason Line's Reaction Times, get a life people! To suggest that his .070 light was a dive is ludicrous on the face of it. Most - and I said "most" - drivers can't possibly replicate their RTs run after run. It just doesn't happen, particularly with clutch-equipped cars. Remember, Pro Stock cars don't leave with the consistency of a Super Comp car.
5. I may not like or approve of diving, but I don't consider it "cheating." Just as every racer knows that the idea is to push the rules, but not beyond the breaking point, when building your car, it's the same thing here. Until a driver says at the end of the track, "Man, I'm sure glad Bill remembered he was supposed to lose! That was closer than I thought it would be," things are not going to change.
6. Dig into your memory cells. Some years back an engine builder and car owner teamed up and set themselves up perfectly. The engine builder rented powerplants to anyone with the money BUT those who did the renting had to agree to lose to anyone higher up on the builder's list. At the top was his primary client. Every customer had to lose to him. If, in the second round, say, Renter #4 faced Renter #2, guess who was going to win?
One customer was sick of it after the second race because he'd been forced to lose twice. He demanded his money back. My information is is that the engine builder refused, saying refunds weren't part of the deal.
Oh! Right, I forgot. Guess who won the title that year?
And you're worried that someone MAY have gone in the tank? Maybe once?
This was an entire season of largely fixed races. Now THAT was a travesty. This is nothing compared to that.
Jon Asher
Senior Editor
CompetitionPlus.com
1. No one is going to openly admit they've thrown a race because NHRA has rules against it. Since NHRA can't actually prove one way or another that a racer did go in the tank, they can't do anything. Suppose NHRA accused Racer A of diving for RACER B? Without proof they'd leave themselves open to a lawsuit that they'd probably lose. You can't accuse someone of doing something and then punish them with a loss of points or something similar without absolute proof.
Some years ago a racer allegedly bribed the starter at a national event. The "problem" was that a third party witnessed the deal being made between the driver and the starter. That third party blabbed a month or so later. Outrage ensued. The sanctioning body president made some semi-public statements about fines, suspensions and more. That was before he had a conversation with his lawyer, who told him that to take action without absolute proof would put him in legal jeopardy, so nothing was done.
Six months later the starter confessed to me, on tape, that "he offered it, and I took it."
2. "Team orders" have been issued and followed in Formula 1 for decades. After a major crackdown the open diving slowed a bit, but it still takes place today. Heck, I think it was last year when an up-and-coming driver was actually ordered to crash his car so the Safety Car would come out on the track and tighten up the field. He talked because he was super-p-----. He lost his ride and the man who gave the order was banned from F1 for life.
3. Are you so naive as to think that the four Sprint Cup cars racing for Rick Hendrick wouldn't help one another despite their having different sponsors? Heck, you hear the drivers talking about it all the time, and you can see it taking place on the track. Same with Roush-Fenway, Richard Childress ad nauseum.
4. Regarding the so-called "disparity" in Jason Line's Reaction Times, get a life people! To suggest that his .070 light was a dive is ludicrous on the face of it. Most - and I said "most" - drivers can't possibly replicate their RTs run after run. It just doesn't happen, particularly with clutch-equipped cars. Remember, Pro Stock cars don't leave with the consistency of a Super Comp car.
5. I may not like or approve of diving, but I don't consider it "cheating." Just as every racer knows that the idea is to push the rules, but not beyond the breaking point, when building your car, it's the same thing here. Until a driver says at the end of the track, "Man, I'm sure glad Bill remembered he was supposed to lose! That was closer than I thought it would be," things are not going to change.
6. Dig into your memory cells. Some years back an engine builder and car owner teamed up and set themselves up perfectly. The engine builder rented powerplants to anyone with the money BUT those who did the renting had to agree to lose to anyone higher up on the builder's list. At the top was his primary client. Every customer had to lose to him. If, in the second round, say, Renter #4 faced Renter #2, guess who was going to win?
One customer was sick of it after the second race because he'd been forced to lose twice. He demanded his money back. My information is is that the engine builder refused, saying refunds weren't part of the deal.
Oh! Right, I forgot. Guess who won the title that year?
And you're worried that someone MAY have gone in the tank? Maybe once?
This was an entire season of largely fixed races. Now THAT was a travesty. This is nothing compared to that.
Jon Asher
Senior Editor
CompetitionPlus.com
Sean D, shondoo
Nitro Member
I would be interested in the context of the offer that was made to the starter. Automatic red-light? How else could the starter effect the outcome? Care to share the details of the offer? (without names of course).
I'm in 100% aggreement with your first sentence in #5. I think it sucks, but I don't see it as "cheating". But as for your version of #4, I would have to respecfully disagree. Clutch cars can have things done to them to move the reaction times around a little. Not saying it was done here, but it can be done. We've heard about things they can do with linkages, air gaps and so forth, so to say it can't be done is naive. On the flip-side, I would think it would be tough for Jason or any other driver to "back off" a nickel in reaction time without going way over center and be .1+. All that being said, I don't think for a minute that Jason went up that round loaded for bear with the intention of winning. He's out of the hunt, Greg isn't and the Summit cars don't have the performance edge they once enjoyed. Bottom line, they need every round they can get.
What would've been really interesting is if something happened to Greg's car around 700 - 800 feet. Would Jason have thundered by for the win or would we have had a replay of the Gary Beck/Larry Minor deal from years ago? We'll never know for sure.
Love your stuff, Mr. Asher.
Sean D
The starter can absolutely impact a race, particularly if one driver is going to stage last, feathering the clutch while the motor is up against the chip, and then have the starter flip the switch the instant that driver's second staging light comes on.
In most, but certainly not all instances, the first driver staged doesn't have his engine on the chip until his opponent's fully staged. Suppose the 'Tree goes green before he can put his foot down?
End of race.
The loser's gonna be mad, but what can he do? He can't prove the starter jobbed him.
My technical expertise is limited to knowing where the engine is located (well, sometimes I don't get that one right), but I've had numerous conversations with racers about this, and the consensus is that regardless of how you set up the clutch, repeating RTs is far from an exact science. Please don't blast me for the numbers here, okay? But the best bracket racers out there can consistently record 0.002 to 0.005 RTs due to the built in consistency of the automatic transmission. I don't believe a Pro Stock car can repeat like that.
Jon Asher
In most, but certainly not all instances, the first driver staged doesn't have his engine on the chip until his opponent's fully staged. Suppose the 'Tree goes green before he can put his foot down?
End of race.
The loser's gonna be mad, but what can he do? He can't prove the starter jobbed him.
My technical expertise is limited to knowing where the engine is located (well, sometimes I don't get that one right), but I've had numerous conversations with racers about this, and the consensus is that regardless of how you set up the clutch, repeating RTs is far from an exact science. Please don't blast me for the numbers here, okay? But the best bracket racers out there can consistently record 0.002 to 0.005 RTs due to the built in consistency of the automatic transmission. I don't believe a Pro Stock car can repeat like that.
Jon Asher
clwill
Nitro Member
I was about to start a post with "the only way to take diving out of racing would be to..." And then I couldn't think of anything.
I say, instead, "get over it". I don't like the weather here in February, but I get over it. The summer's are incredible, and make it all worthwhile.
Same for drag racing. When it's good, it's amazing: stand-up-hair-on-the-back-of-your-neck, goose-pimple amazing. When people dive, it's merely predictable. Still pretty cool.
I say, instead, "get over it". I don't like the weather here in February, but I get over it. The summer's are incredible, and make it all worthwhile.
Same for drag racing. When it's good, it's amazing: stand-up-hair-on-the-back-of-your-neck, goose-pimple amazing. When people dive, it's merely predictable. Still pretty cool.
Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw a Full PSB session in person!
Bubba
Nitro Member
Mr. Asher, you are the voice of reason. Great post.
