G'ginna
Nitro Member
In fact, Thomas Jefferson (for one) went out of his way to MAKE SURE that he did not express a religious preference despite much pressure to do so.
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Small Tennessee town outraged over Tyson Foods Decision
- Thread starter ProStockJunkie
- Start date
In fact, Thomas Jefferson (for one) went out of his way to MAKE SURE that he did not express a religious preference despite much pressure to do so.
"Dr. Dirt"
Nitro Member
Once a union is in place, it's curtains for much of the way a business can operate. The union will dictate more than is appropriate. Move Tyson foods here to Arizona where we have the "right to work" established. I'll bet this specific holiday practice ends instantly.
"Dr. Dirt"
Nitro Member
Karl, I believe the point is that THEY WERE RELIGIOUS.
case in point:
“In God We Trust” Text of Quotations
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness—these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles.”
– George Washington
________________________________________
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
–Thomas Jefferson
________________________________________
“'Tis religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure, than they have it now, they may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty.”
– John Adams
________________________________________
“...The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that ‘except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.’ ”
– Benjamin Franklin
________________________________________
“Were my soul trembling on the wing of eternity, were this hand freezing to death, were my voice choking with the last struggle, I would still, with the last gasp of that voice, implore you to remember the truth: God has given America to be free.”
– Patrick Henry
________________________________________
“And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions, in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon; and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.”
– Abraham Lincoln
________________________________________
“Let us look forward to the time when we can take the flag of our country and nail it below the Cross, and there let it wave as it waved in the olden times, and let us gather around it and inscribed for our motto: ‘Liberty and Union, one and inseparable, now and forever,’ and exclaim, ‘Christ first, our country next!’ ”
– Andrew Johnson
________________________________________
“We cannot read the history of our rise and development as a nation, without reckoning with the place the Bible has occupied in shaping the advances of the Republic. Where we have been the truest and most consistent in obeying its precepts, we have attained the greatest measure of contentment and prosperity.”
– Franklin Roosevelt
________________________________________
“Without God, there is no virtue, because there’s no prompting of the conscience. Without God, we’re mired in the material, that flat world that tells us only what the senses perceive. Without God, there is a coarsening of the society. And without God, democracy will not and cannot long endure. If we ever forget that we’re one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under.”
– Ronald Reagan
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d'kid
Nitro Member
d'kid
Nitro Member
Your Right, With Out GOD. They we're Religious, Yet they did not establish a State Religion.
But I don't believe in your God. I have my beliefs, you have yours. I guess when Armageddon shows up 21 Dec 2012 we'll both know.
Karl
Unions thrive in right to work states, including Tennessee where this is happening.
And this country was never more proud or strong as we were in the 40's, 50's and 60's when union labor was a force.
Autoworkers (remember when the big 3 stood tall?)
Steelworkers, Concrete Workers, Laborers, Carpenters (most buildings you walk into were erected using union labor somewhere along the line if it is more than 10 years old)
Who do you think builds the tires that you race with? Yep, United Rubber Workers.
This country was built by proud union labor. You want to keep Labor Day, but, if you join a union, it's curtains?
Labor Day was not conceived to honor just non-union workers. I would argue much, very much, the opposite.
And why would Tyson want to move their operation to Arizona? They aren't fighting the holiday switch.
The local presented the holiday package as part of contractual negotiations, as well as (I would assume) compensation packages, health care plans, and other items that the majority of the union workers and Tyson found equitable.
Why would they move to a state where items they agree with would end instantly? That doesn't sound like sound business to me. Plus, the chickens probably wouldn't do well in the heat.
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G'ginna
Nitro Member
Actually, scripture would be quotes from religious works such as the Bible. None of the people Bobby quoted are contributors to any Bible I know of and I find that it was a pleasure to read quotes from some of the people that were basic to the freedoms you may or may not value today. You have a right to disagree but I have a right to speak my thoughts as well that doesn't lend more weight to either your thoughts or mine regardless of how wrong I think you are. I find the bold red font a nice change from the basic types posted.
I do apologize, especially to Bobby, for referencing it as scripture as it was indeed quotes from great Americans. About God, and Government. Thanks for pointing that out Georginna.. I paged down past it. My bad. I am going back to read them, and understand them.
I should edit my post to read: Could we have a discussion on the topic at hand as opposed to a constitutional religious discussion. Especially in light of this not being a constitutional issue, but rather an employee/employer agreement that affects 1200 people.
And also without the bold red font.
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Kelly
Nitro Member
And also without the bold red font.
Let me guess....Alan Reinhart's posts in bold, red, fru-fru (kinda girly and loopy...luv ya Alan!) font really, really get to you? LOL
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It is never more than a sentence or twoLet me guess....Alan Reinhart's posts in bold, red, fru-fru (kinda girly and loopy...luv ya Alan!) font really, really get to you? LOL
Probably not the right font
"Dr. Dirt"
Nitro Member
Greg,
As we have discussed in private messaging a time or two, we will probably always be on opposite sides of the conversation or debate. In this case, I'm proud from the depths of my conservative soul that our opinions differ. I believe from the bottom of my heart that this country was founded on Christian principals by Christians who created a system for every differing religion to be spawned and flourish without reproof or reviling allowing all men the opportunity to worship who, what and where they may. I'll also openly admit that labor unions were an excellent way for the American worker to gain strength to make a better living and break the bands of corporate oppression but, as with so very many other causes they have used their stranglehold to swing the pendulum beyond the point of reason and priced themselves out of a world market. If you believe the UAW built superior products to those built overseas during the 80s I feel very sorry for you. That era alone nearly destroyed our auto industry's ability to compete in this world market that we once controlled. Today's continued losses are a direct result of labor costs among other fiscal concerns. If you believe otherwise, you are sadly mistaken. I suspect you are a union man and understand if you disagree.
I owned my own company and rather enjoyed the opportunity to pay each employee exactly what they were worth to my company's bottom line as opposed to being forced by organized labor to pay everyone equal wages as the union men demanded. And yes, much of my productive staff earned beyond that of the prevailing union wage due to their value and production. That's the way business should work in my world. Lastly, I'll not be changing my font color. It was red on the old Mater and I only went to magenta due to the new Mater's original color scheme where the red was difficult to read. I'm sorry if it bothers you.
As we have discussed in private messaging a time or two, we will probably always be on opposite sides of the conversation or debate. In this case, I'm proud from the depths of my conservative soul that our opinions differ. I believe from the bottom of my heart that this country was founded on Christian principals by Christians who created a system for every differing religion to be spawned and flourish without reproof or reviling allowing all men the opportunity to worship who, what and where they may. I'll also openly admit that labor unions were an excellent way for the American worker to gain strength to make a better living and break the bands of corporate oppression but, as with so very many other causes they have used their stranglehold to swing the pendulum beyond the point of reason and priced themselves out of a world market. If you believe the UAW built superior products to those built overseas during the 80s I feel very sorry for you. That era alone nearly destroyed our auto industry's ability to compete in this world market that we once controlled. Today's continued losses are a direct result of labor costs among other fiscal concerns. If you believe otherwise, you are sadly mistaken. I suspect you are a union man and understand if you disagree.
I owned my own company and rather enjoyed the opportunity to pay each employee exactly what they were worth to my company's bottom line as opposed to being forced by organized labor to pay everyone equal wages as the union men demanded. And yes, much of my productive staff earned beyond that of the prevailing union wage due to their value and production. That's the way business should work in my world. Lastly, I'll not be changing my font color. It was red on the old Mater and I only went to magenta due to the new Mater's original color scheme where the red was difficult to read. I'm sorry if it bothers you.
clwill
Nitro Member
In many factory situations this is not feasible. There have to be a given number of people present to operate the system. If you let people choose, you risk having days (on essentially zero notice) that you have, say 90% of the people you need present. Ouch...
Bobby, I am cool with where we stand. You are correct. We will agree on very little, but, we keep it civil.
As for the font, I was on my laptop in my garage, it was a string, of bold (I am cool with the the red) but, working in architecture for a living, a printed message should stand out on merit, not by overwhelming the viewer.
Your message was lost on me, not because it was wrong, or red, but bold red, in lower case. As I said before, I am reading, and understanding the quotes your provided. And, it really didn't apply to the original point of the thread. Your 2nd post more hits to the the point of the subject.
Lets talk union employment first, constitutional religion last.
I never mentioned the 80's. I spoke of the 40's thru the 60's. Reagan broke the traffic controllers (and, there have been many more misses and crashes percentage wise since, which scares me because I travel for work) and when the CBA was gone from negotiations with the Fed, why should major industry do it.?
The cars of the 80's were not a failure of the the unions, but rather the designer and the auto firms. For instance, a union welder that made 25 bucks an hour was adept at welding whatever came down the line. When it came to robotic spot welding it still needed to be reviewed , and he, as an expert was overruled by speed and efficiency in lieu of a quality product. Unions were not the cause of the 80's and 90's vehicle embaresements.
Now, lets talk wage. I understand that you are in a position to pay your employees a better wage than union (do any of these positions have a union equivalent?) That is your prerogative. Why on earth would you question another companies agreement with their employees, religious or not?
They are a private entity, that negotiates with it's workers on the working conditions that fall inside the federal minimum wage, overtime, and other employment laws, Right?
Remember., this is the firm that has a bad history of fires, locked doors, and dead workers on their resume. A union, regardless of what you think their religious agenda, was needed there. There was no corporate pressure to provide so much as an exit during a fire, let alone the other federal employment violations.
I will ask again, are people pissed that it is a traded day off, or that it is a recognized muslim holiday, in this plant, and this plant only.
Oh, and Bobby, here is just a sampling of my rebuttal to your bold red post. If you choose to open a new thread to discuss it, I would probably participate. Heh.
....................................................................
“I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another”
Thomas Jefferson
“Freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of person under the protection of the habeas corpus; and trial by juries impartially selected, - these principles form the bright constellation which has gone before us”
Thomas Jefferson
“If the freedom of religion, guaranteed to us by law in theory, can ever rise in practice under the overbearing inquisition of public opinion, then and only then will truth, prevail over fanaticism”
Thomas Jefferson
...............................................................
All three of those phrases are exactly why this needs to run its' course, as Tyson understood.
As for the font, I was on my laptop in my garage, it was a string, of bold (I am cool with the the red) but, working in architecture for a living, a printed message should stand out on merit, not by overwhelming the viewer.
Your message was lost on me, not because it was wrong, or red, but bold red, in lower case. As I said before, I am reading, and understanding the quotes your provided. And, it really didn't apply to the original point of the thread. Your 2nd post more hits to the the point of the subject.
Lets talk union employment first, constitutional religion last.
I never mentioned the 80's. I spoke of the 40's thru the 60's. Reagan broke the traffic controllers (and, there have been many more misses and crashes percentage wise since, which scares me because I travel for work) and when the CBA was gone from negotiations with the Fed, why should major industry do it.?
The cars of the 80's were not a failure of the the unions, but rather the designer and the auto firms. For instance, a union welder that made 25 bucks an hour was adept at welding whatever came down the line. When it came to robotic spot welding it still needed to be reviewed , and he, as an expert was overruled by speed and efficiency in lieu of a quality product. Unions were not the cause of the 80's and 90's vehicle embaresements.
Now, lets talk wage. I understand that you are in a position to pay your employees a better wage than union (do any of these positions have a union equivalent?) That is your prerogative. Why on earth would you question another companies agreement with their employees, religious or not?
They are a private entity, that negotiates with it's workers on the working conditions that fall inside the federal minimum wage, overtime, and other employment laws, Right?
Remember., this is the firm that has a bad history of fires, locked doors, and dead workers on their resume. A union, regardless of what you think their religious agenda, was needed there. There was no corporate pressure to provide so much as an exit during a fire, let alone the other federal employment violations.
I will ask again, are people pissed that it is a traded day off, or that it is a recognized muslim holiday, in this plant, and this plant only.
Oh, and Bobby, here is just a sampling of my rebuttal to your bold red post. If you choose to open a new thread to discuss it, I would probably participate. Heh.
....................................................................
“I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another”
Thomas Jefferson
“Freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of person under the protection of the habeas corpus; and trial by juries impartially selected, - these principles form the bright constellation which has gone before us”
Thomas Jefferson
“If the freedom of religion, guaranteed to us by law in theory, can ever rise in practice under the overbearing inquisition of public opinion, then and only then will truth, prevail over fanaticism”
Thomas Jefferson
...............................................................
All three of those phrases are exactly why this needs to run its' course, as Tyson understood.
"Dr. Dirt"
Nitro Member
Rather than rebut issue by issue as I feel compelled, I'll save everyone the grief and just state "we'll, once again, have to agree to disagree on almost everything you posted here." You completely missed my point on religious principals and that's OK by me. I'll write it off to bolded print. I doubt most others who may read it will. Our union stance will always be 180 degrees from each other as well.
clwill
Nitro Member
It is interesting to note that people get their knickers all in a twist when the religion is Islam, but the issue exists with many other religions (and of course with the non-religious). For example, there are hundreds of thousands of Jews in the country who celebrate many varied holidays and have nothing to do with Christmas or Easter. They are required to work on Rosh Hashanah but get Christmas off -- where's the fairness in that?
This country was founded by people of the Christian persuasion, but having just escaped a religious monarchy, they were smart enough to keep any specific religion out of our legal framework. They wisely recognized the tyranny of the majority and implemented not only the revered Bill of Rights, but also a representative government and many other safeguards to prevent people with minority views from being trampled by the majority. They made a very conscious decision to NOT make this a Christian state and I (and millions of others) will go to my grave fighting to keep it that way.
What you do on your sabbath (be it Sunday, Saturday, or Tuesday) is entirely up to you, but keep it the heck out of my laws, government, and life in general.
This country was founded by people of the Christian persuasion, but having just escaped a religious monarchy, they were smart enough to keep any specific religion out of our legal framework. They wisely recognized the tyranny of the majority and implemented not only the revered Bill of Rights, but also a representative government and many other safeguards to prevent people with minority views from being trampled by the majority. They made a very conscious decision to NOT make this a Christian state and I (and millions of others) will go to my grave fighting to keep it that way.
What you do on your sabbath (be it Sunday, Saturday, or Tuesday) is entirely up to you, but keep it the heck out of my laws, government, and life in general.
NHRAMike
Nitro Member
Christopher, you just threw a 50 point double bullseye!
Here is my reply to a thread that goes back a couple of years ago on a subject similar to this:
Remember when we all forced to take American History back during our high school years? What was the reason that the first American settlers left England in the first place? Does something to do with "freedom of religion" ring a bell? But why did they want religious freedom in the first place? In the early 1500's, England broke away from the Catholic Church, whereupon King Henry VIII (i am i am) established the Church of England and named himself the head of the church, and according to English law, all citizens had to belong to the Anglician Church and contribute to it's support regardless of their own beliefs. Of course plenty of people objected to having to support something they did not believe in, and after being persecuted for their beliefs, that prompted people to seek out freedom in the "new world". Years later when the constitution was being drafted, the founding fathers chose to create a democracy, not a theocracy, which is why the first amendment reads:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
I'm no constitutional scholar, but that seems pretty self-explanatory to me. The government will not make any law favoring one religion over any other, nor will the government prohibit anyone from exercising their free will to believe (or not) in whatever way they see fit.
Of course the next morning I got accused of not having a "basic knowledge about everyday life in this country", and If I believe that this nation was not founded upon Christian principles, that is my right and I have the freedom to believe so. However, that does not change history.
D
Nitro Member
Ding Ding Ding
