Nhra: If you build an unnapproved harley psm you won’t be able to race it

[Bill]

Using Graham Light and cognizant in the same sentence is grounds for 2 weeks detention.

Touche'...

 

[twostep]

I think it's time everybody face the music. Harley Davidson is in control of NHRA Pro Stock Motorcycle, and if they want to campaign a 4-valve, DOHC one-off VRod engine, with one team having the exclusive rights to race it, well, guess what. That's what's going down.

What to do now? A few days ago I suggested a mass boycott as the only option, but after a bit of thought (and the 20 pound penalty which at least helps some) the only logical thing to do is fight back. Hector Arana has run as quick as 6.77 on a pushrod Buell. Karen Stouffer and Michael Phillips, on Suzukis, have run 198 miles per hour. Matt Smith knows how to step up. Arana laid down a 6.81 in Gainesville, but for the most part, the other brands ran no where near their potential at that race. That's not Harley's fault.

If the Buells and the Suzi's can run 6.80 @195 plus in good air, they're gonna win their share of races, assuming Harley doesn't petition NHRA for superchargers to compensate for the extra 20 pounds.

 

[force fan]

I think it's time everybody face the music. Harley Davidson is in control of NHRA Pro Stock Motorcycle, and if they want to campaign a 4-valve, DOHC one-off VRod engine, with one team having the exclusive rights to race it, well, guess what. That's what's going down.

What to do now? A few days ago I suggested a mass boycott as the only option, but after a bit of thought (and the 20 pound penalty which at least helps some) the only logical thing to do is fight back. Hector Arana has run as quick as 6.77 on a pushrod Buell. Karen Stouffer and Michael Phillips, on Suzukis, have run 198 miles per hour. Matt Smith knows how to step up. Arana laid down a 6.81 in Gainesville, but for the most part, the other brands ran no where near their potential at that race. That's not Harley's fault.

If the Buells and the Suzi's can run 6.80 @195 plus in good air, they're gonna win their share of races, assuming Harley doesn't petition NHRA for superchargers to compensate for the extra 20 pounds.

That may be true, but the HD's were always quicker and faster no matter what the others ran.

 

[Paul]

That may be true, but the HD's were always quicker and faster no matter what the others ran.

At Reading last year Hector Jr and Matt had the best bikes on the property. In 3 races and the off-season, the Harley team worked on improving while the others did nothing (read their own statements), how is that the Harley team's fault? You also have to remember, that most of the time the team with the biggest budget will outrun those with small budgets and the Harley team and the Lucas team are in a league of their own when it comes to $$.

 

[Fast16Racer]

I think it's time everybody face the music. Harley Davidson is in control of NHRA Pro Stock Motorcycle, and if they want to campaign a 4-valve, DOHC one-off VRod engine, with one team having the exclusive rights to race it, well, guess what. That's what's going down.

What to do now? A few days ago I suggested a mass boycott as the only option, but after a bit of thought (and the 20 pound penalty which at least helps some) the only logical thing to do is fight back. Hector Arana has run as quick as 6.77 on a pushrod Buell. Karen Stouffer and Michael Phillips, on Suzukis, have run 198 miles per hour. Matt Smith knows how to step up. Arana laid down a 6.81 in Gainesville, but for the most part, the other brands ran no where near their potential at that race. That's not Harley's fault.

If the Buells and the Suzi's can run 6.80 @195 plus in good air, they're gonna win their share of races, assuming Harley doesn't petition NHRA for superchargers to compensate for the extra 20 pounds.

This could be a good plan if no one is sandbagging. And by sandbagging, I mean maybe not pushing the tuneup as hard as possible or not yet implementing gains discovered during R&D.

V&H's advantage seems pretty substantial and they are smart people, smart enough I would think to try and walk the line between "competitive" and "dominant". Even though it has been an ongoing issue. it seems lately they have been "competitive" enough to get everyone's attention.

 

[force fan]

At Reading last year Hector Jr and Matt had the best bikes on the property. In 3 races and the off-season, the Harley team worked on improving while the others did nothing (read their own statements), how is that the Harley team's fault? You also have to remember, that most of the time the team with the biggest budget will outrun those with small budgets and the Harley team and the Lucas team are in a league of their own when it comes to $$.

I'm sorry but there is no one that can convince me that letting only HD/VH run 160 cid 4 valve dohc while everyone else gets 107 cid push rods is fair or right. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

 

[Paul]

I'm sorry but there is no one that can convince me that letting only HD/VH run 160 cid 4 valve dohc while everyone else gets 107 cid push rods is fair or right. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

You missed the point, they were equal and one team worked hard to improve while others didn't (their words, not mine). The NHRA approved the rules each make plays within (right or wrong) and one team is being punished for working harder than everyone else and that rubs me the wrong way. Your grip is with with the NHRA making the rules, not the teams who are playing along with the approved rules.

 

[Rat]

I'm sorry but there is no one that can convince me that letting only HD/VH run 160 cid 4 valve dohc while everyone else gets 107 cid push rods is fair or right. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

Exactly. The NHRA keeps hearing questions and comments about the main point of all of this mess and they just keep running right over and acting like they never heard a thing. With every passing day, more and more of this NHRA/HD relationship make even less sense to me. Everyone should be welcome to run whatever bike they want with whatever motor they want. Fine, funny business says it cant be that way; ok. But, why did the NHRA not approve the suzuki motor? That above all is not right because HD/NHRA want to be exclusive fine, but to deny other teams the upgrades they have made is bull. Again, I don't blame V&H, but i ask HD how do you get any satisfaction in winning anything in the NHRA when showing up to any race the chance of winning is already titled in your direction?

Suzuki should be allowed to release any technology that can give them a more powerful bike so that weight becomes less of an issue. If innovation is being killed due to HD/NHRA, they lack character because they are really letting HD buy drag race wins and not just sponsorship. Shame on the NHRA if that is what they are doing and the being 2 faced enough to try and sell the class countdown time, it's an absolute joke.

 

[Rat]

Using Graham Light and cognizant in the same sentence is grounds for 2 weeks detention.

Absolutely

 

[.]

I'm sorry but there is no one that can convince me that letting only HD/VH run 160 cid 4 valve dohc while everyone else gets 107 cid push rods is fair or right. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

The Buell's are 160 CI (same as Harley's), but pushrods and 2 valves, not four valves and overhead cams.

 

[funny1]

By far for the mostpart--the suzuki teams get their engines from VHR--------So who is it that finds this new (more than ever before) HP in the PSM Suzuki engines?-thats right--its VHR
When did the Suzuki teams actually get their VHR engines?
It would be difficult to test without an engine.

 

[corvette racer]

In my opinion, the argument is not about 2 valve pushrod vs. 4 valve OHC engines. It is the exclusivity of only one team being allowed to purchase the H-D combo, which flies in the face of the rulebook.

Seems to me that H-D would want to sell as many of the V-rods as possible. Heck, they might even have a 16 bike H-D field if they opened it up to everyone who wants one. You can't get a better ROI that that.

 

[force fan]

The Buell's are 160 CI (same as Harley's), but pushrods and 2 valves, not four valves and overhead cams.

So, this is a misprint????

Written by NHRA Communications:

minimum weight for the Harley Davidson 160-cid, 4-valve combination will increase 20 pounds, from 640 pounds to 660 pounds.

Suzuki 107-cid 2-valve will remain at 595 pounds.

American pushrod V-Twin 160-cid will remain at 615 pounds

I'm assuming this is the Buells?? ^^^^^^^^

If this is true, looks like the Suzukis are really getting screwed!!!!

 

[twostep]

If this is true, looks like the Suzukis are really getting screwed!!!!

Not really. Because of the inherent design, a V-twin, all else being equal, won't develop the power of a DOHC inline-4. The four is roughly 50% more powerful. To compensate, the Harleys were given a 50% CID advantage, and then NHRA played with the weight; fine-tuning until the performances between brands became as uniform as possible.

 

[nick name]

This could be a good plan if no one is sandbagging. And by sandbagging, I mean maybe not pushing the tuneup as hard as possible or not yet implementing gains discovered during R&D.

V&H's advantage seems pretty substantial and they are smart people, smart enough I would think to try and walk the line between "competitive" and "dominant". Even though it has been an ongoing issue. it seems lately they have been "competitive" enough to get everyone's attention.

I have the highest respect for two of the parties in this issue. Both George Bryce and Byron Hines have been winners in any class they chose to race. Both have already cemented their place as being among the very best ever to compete.

One thing that's remained constant around Byron though, is the common view that he's a consummate poker player. That he shows just enough to get the job done and saves the rest for a rainy day or for the rare event he wants to make a statement. I'm not privy to anything internal to V&H so I can't offer that as a truth - it's simply something that's been said for many years.

Now consider that V&H are building the remaining competitive Suzuki engines. Someone please correct me if there are still teams going their own way, but I had the impression that even the great tuners like Gary Stouffer were using a V&H base.

If you're trying to stay in front but not enough to provoke new restrictions, wouldn't it be easy to do if you already knew what was in everybody's hand? I can't imagine that Byron allows an engine to leave his shop without being on the dyno.

Why did they pour it on at Gainesville? That's what I'm wondering. Does it have something to do with the color and logo change on the bikes? I honestly don't know but it's sure not what I've become accustomed to seeing from the team.

 

[nick name]

Not really. Because of the inherent design, a V-twin, all else being equal, won't develop the power of a DOHC inline-4...

Pretty much like bringing a knife to a gunfight, then?

So why didn't small block wedge engines get to run 800+ cubic inches in Top Fuel against the Hemi?

Not directed at you, Carl - you correctly related a decision that I've always wondered about.

It's a pet peeve I have with the direction NHRA has chosen to take. It used to be that you found the best design and then worked on it to make more power than the next guy. These days, you can complain that your sub-standard stuff needs some help - and then actually get it.

 

[twostep]

Not directed at you, Carl - you correctly related a decision that I've always wondered about.

I understand completely. With the Harleys, tho, if they weren't allowed a CID concession they wouldn't have been able to compete in PSM, even to this day. A lot of people wanted to see the Harleys; I was one of them; I enjoy seeing the two combinations battling head to head. I suppose NHRA could have told Harley to go build a 4 cylinder Jap bike style engine, but that would have gone over like a turd in a punchbowl.

If Harley would announce tomorrow that if John Q. Public wants to race a PSM Harley, feel free, the controversy would be over. It's not so much the 4-valve heads, or the fact that the VRods are quicker. What galls everybody is nobody else is....oh, hell, it's been repeated 500 times. No need for me to keep yammering about it.

 

[Bullard Anderson]

Re: Nhra: If you build an unnapproved harley psm you won`t be able to race it

In HDs mind 16 bike fields of all HDs is not better cause there is no place to show HDs superiority over the competition. Just 2 HDs kicking butt in a field of Suzuki's is better for marketing. And all HD field becomes IROC and no way to out class another manufacturer.
The analogy to a nitro team parts is stupid. damn stupid. a nitro team is not a showroom floor maker of a product that is sellable to the buying public, regular joe's. HD is. nhra needs to learn the terms factory support and privateer or independent. sounds like if you don't have a factory backed harley you can't race. what would happen if they did that for the other pro classes???? we go to vegas next wkd and watch out for HD in the casinos. They may try to pull out some chips but instead pull the nhra out of their hip pocket.

 

[Bill]

So, what happens if Allen Johnson develops a DOHC head for his MOPAR Pro Stocker, with 4 valves per cylinder; what do you think his chances are of getting it approved by NHRA's powers-that-be???

If he DOES get it approved, then refuses to make the technology available to other Pro Stock racers, should he still be allowed to run his unique heads???

If he wins two races in a row, decisively, do you think 40-pound weight penalty would be an appropriate "parity" move by NHRA?

This is EXACTLY what has happened in PSM. EXACTLY.

If John Bradley's estate decided to build a Ford Flathead-powered Pro Stocker, do you think NHRA would give it a weight break commensurate with the one Harleys enjoy over the Suzukis???

If the NHRA announcers educated the pubilc (fans) about the HUGE handicap the Suzukis face, yes still manage to run pretty much neck and neck with the V-Twins, do you think that having a Harley win in PSM would still be seen as a marketing advantage???

I said it before... "The Emperor has no clothes."

 

[tb]

So, what happens if Allen Johnson develops a DOHC head for his MOPAR Pro Stocker, with 4 valves per cylinder; what do you think his chances are of getting it approved by NHRA's powers-that-be???

If he DOES get it approved, then refuses to make the technology available to other Pro Stock racers, should he still be allowed to run his unique heads???

If he wins two races in a row, decisively, do you think 40-pound weight penalty would be an appropriate "parity" move by NHRA?

This is EXACTLY what has happened in PSM. EXACTLY.

If John Bradley's estate decided to build a Ford Flathead-powered Pro Stocker, do you think NHRA would give it a weight break commensurate with the one Harleys enjoy over the Suzukis???

If the NHRA announcers educated the pubilc (fans) about the HUGE handicap the Suzukis face, yes still manage to run pretty much neck and neck with the V-Twins, do you think that having a Harley win in PSM would still be seen as a marketing advantage???

I said it before... "The Emperor has no clothes."

Not Exactly. H-D has a say on who gets a Harley and right now it is only V-H.

Now if you said Dodge developed a 4 valve motor and only let Allan Johnson use it that would be what is happening in PSM

H-D will not aprove any one else to run a Harley.