Mark Niver - RIP. Short Sand Trap? (1 Viewer)

[n/a]

When I saw this on TV the other day my first impression was the "sand trap" was way too short!! (My son saw the accident later the next day, and he said the same thing).

So my two immediate questions are this....

1. What is the length of that first initial "sand" trap there at Seattle (before the first catch net)?

and

2. WHY wasn't the "sand" groomed with Cross Cut Farrows in it to help slow the cars down?

Instead if you look, the "sand" was groomed lengthwise, and flat, so the cars ran with the grooming and never against it.

Niver never slowed once he hit the sand!!!

The reality of it is, most all of the faster classes are now just too damn fast for the available shut down area we have at most racetracks. In a perfect world, the shut downs should be long enough to stop from any speeds with out parachutes! But we know that will never be, because of the costs involved to lengthen these current facilities. So until this happens, nhra needs to slow the cars down, and run them to 1,000' just like T/F & F/C.

Two alcohol class drivers have lost their lives in this past 30 days, that should not be acceptable

My two cents!

Watch both of these...

YouTube - Drag Racer Mark Niver Crash

YouTube - Mark Niver Sportsman Track Fact 2008

Larry Fulton
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406-453-5395

 

[Nemo]

It's always hard to tell distance but I guess you could use the length of the car (280-300 inches) as it goes into the trap and see how many car lengths it is from the start to the first net.

Thanks for posting the track fact, I had forgot about that one, great look at a super nice guy....so sad.

I wish they would publish more with the findings on all these fatalities. I know it seems cold or morbid, but it has worked well in other industries to invent, innovate, and push the safety factor along when there are well documented facts out for all that participate to scrutinize and ponder. I personally think it's less about respect and privacy and more about covering up deficiencies. It's hard to keep people from repeating mistakes if they never know it happened before.

Here is a NIOSH report from a firefighter fatality, one of the 100+ they release every year. EVERY SHIFT I print one of these out and hand it out to my crew. We discuss what happened, what could have been done differently, and how we would handle it int he future if something similar presents itself to us. You would be surprised how many time we either had something already happen similar, or ran into a similar situation and said "that reminding me of the one NIOSH report, glad we broke the chain of events before we got hurt".

Just food for thought...here is what I'm talking about :

Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation Report F2009-23| CDC/NIOSH

another one

Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation Report F2009-11| CDC/NIOSH

oh yea, I also drive a T/D and S/C car, have for almost 20 years, helped on a TA/D car in the early 90's....my dad has been doing it for 35 years so grumps on here can hold the "new to the sport" and "some kind of spectator" comments.

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

Niver never slowed once he hit the sand!!!

The reality of it is, most all of the faster classes are now just too damn fast for the available shut down area we have at most racetracks.

Personally, I've never liked the sand traps to start with. When cars initially go into them, it's rarely a smooth transition. Usually the nose dips down, digs in and the car gets really stupid. I've often wondered if it wouldn't be better to have a series of nets rather than one or two, with no sand. The first designed to break away at a pre-determined load with each net progressively stronger until you get to the last two that aren't designed to break away at all. Hell, use a series of 10 nets if necessary; whatever. I just think the sand compounds the problem many times.

I would have to respecfully disagree with your last statement. Niver wasn't going very fast at all when he entered the sand. As far as I'm concerned, he done one hell of a job getting the car slowed down that much without having it bouncing all over the place. Very well done. That whole deal reminded me very much of the Earnhardt crash. Never thought in a million years he would even be seriously injured, much less lose his life. Very unfortunate.

Sean D

 

[hoser]

With respect to Mark's friends and family - It seems that this unfortunate event was caused by a compound of problems. First, I agree with you all that the sand did almost nothing to slow him down. Whether it was implemented properly is a good question. However, it appears that the net was the ultimate cause of the tragedy. He wasn't going very fast at all when he impacted it.


Take a look - Alexis Dejoria and Marty Nothstein's crashes, E-town 2009
YouTube - Marty Nothstien and Alexis Dejoria Englishtown Crashes 2009

BOTH of those cars entered the sand traps and a higher rate of speed than Mark did, and in Alexis' case, it was MUCH higher. Do you notice though, that it appears that the nets were way less "tight" than the one Mark came into contact with? Marty went through the first net and was stopped by the second, Alexis blew right through all the nets and was stopped by the sand barrels.

Granted, it is an apples-to-oranges comparison, as they had Funny Cars and his was a dragster. But it still looks like, to my untrained eye, that there was a vast difference between those two sand traps and catch nets.

Such a sad event that could have possibly been avoided if there was a standard on sand traps and catch nets.

 

[Jim]

I thought the Niver car "folded" in a very unusual manner. If the sterring wheel struck the driver it wouldn't surprise me.

PS: Reviewing the Nottstein crash - Looks like he turned the car at the very last instant - therefore, absorbing the impact on the side rather than frontally.

 

[Kris]

Having driven around the sand trap at Pacific Raceways a couple times Thursday night, if I had to guess (and spacial relations are not my thing) it would look as though it was longer than last year, I think, and it looked like it was about 200 feet long.
Don't quote me on this. I have been trying to get a hold of the folks at Pacific Raceways on another matter so I will try and remember to ask the length of the sand trap to help clarify the situation.

 

[n/a]

I would have to respectfully disagree with your last statement. Niver wasn't going very fast at all when he entered the sand. As far as I'm concerned, he done one hell of a job getting the car slowed down that much without having it bouncing all over the place. Very well done. That whole deal reminded me very much of the Earnhardt crash. Never thought in a million years he would even be seriously injured, much less lose his life. Very unfortunate. Sean D

I agree, He wasn't going all that fast (compared to 271+ at the stripe) but with NO Chutes, and a poorly groomed / short sand trap (**), he ran into that first "tight net" way to soon.

I feel, that if he had another 320' at the end of the track, and a longer, better prepped sand trap, he probably would have been able to stop the car and walk away.

** This a.m. I heard from a very reliable source that a new road was just finished and opened there at the end of the strip, and that necessitated this shortened sand trap and net placement. More food for thought.

Larry

 

[Old Guy Rookie]

Having driven around the sand trap at Pacific Raceways a couple times Thursday night, if I had to guess (and spacial relations are not my thing) it would look as though it was longer than last year, I think, and it looked like it was about 200 feet long.
Don't quote me on this. I have been trying to get a hold of the folks at Pacific Raceways on another matter so I will try and remember to ask the length of the sand trap to help clarify the situation.

Out of curiosity, do we know how deep it is as well?

 

[Raconteur]

What is the length of that first initial "sand" trap there at Seattle (before the first catch net)?

Here's a chart for NHRA National Event tracks

in Drag Racing Online

 

[Bruno]

What other form of motorsports has deaths because the cars cannot stop? Other forms - NASCAR, Indy Car, etc, deaths are caused from bad crashes either with another car or into walls, etc. Drag racing, people die because the race track is too short?? That's nuts. I remember in high school the track team had a meet in the gym during the winter. The sprinters stopped by being caught by a rope at the end held by a bunch of people. That's what we have now only the stakes are a lot higher. What if Bonneville started having people get killed because the salt was too short? It would be shut down now! I can tell you, to me, the scariest part of the run is hitting the chutes - hoping they blossom and then keeping the car under control as it wants to sashay back and forth. Niver was going pretty slow when he hit the sand but you're right, it didn't slow him at all. I crashed at Bandimere going a lot faster, went through the first net and into the second. But, Rob Williams, who used to work for me at the stone shop and was a long time driver of the Assassination Funny Car and later worked at Bandimere, devised a "break-away" netting system where the first net was held up by PVC piping. Once you hit it, it stretched and broke the pipes. Then the car drags this 200lb net through the sand before it hits the second net. I went through the first net, hardly felt a thing, then hit the second net when it picked up the car and spun it around. Busted up the body but the frame was fine. Niver skipped along the top of the "sand". The trap at Bandimere is more like the gravel you see on a run-away truck ramp. You can barely walk across it.

Shelly Howard's freak accident was the hardest to take of anything I have ever heard of. Niver's accident seems like it could have been completely avoided. Since NHRA has gotten their fingers into the nostalgia series I am already losing interest.

Joe Percoco

 

[hoser]

Just read over on ITA that NHRA announced today that Carbon Fiber brakes will be mandatory for TAD and TAFC. They were not required up till now, but many if not most TAD and TAFC cars did already have them. Supposedly Mark's car did not have CF brakes.

 

[clwill]

What other form of motorsports has deaths because the cars cannot stop?

All of them. I'm pretty sure anyone who was headed into the wall wished they could stop...

Other forms - NASCAR, Indy Car, etc, deaths are caused from bad crashes either with another car or into walls, etc. Drag racing, people die because the race track is too short?? That's nuts.

Lots of people in IndyCar think most of the accidents at Indy are caused by the track being too flat. Or in NASCAR because Daytona's too fast. Or in F1 because the streets are too bumpy. Same thing.

 

[Gordon]

I wish they would publish more with the findings on all these fatalities. I know it seems cold or morbid, but it has worked well in other industries to invent, innovate, and push the safety factor along when there are well documented facts out for all that participate to scrutinize and ponder. I personally think it's less about respect and privacy and more about covering up deficiencies. It's hard to keep people from repeating mistakes if they never know it happened before.

I'm going to do my best to word this so it's not taken out of context, so please bear with me.

Any loss of life as a result of an accident is tragic. Whether it's walking across the street and being struck by a car, or pursuing our dreams at over 250 m.p.h., or anything in between - an accident is an accident, period, and the loss we feel in the aftermath is no less painful, regardless of the cause.

Sure, we'd like to think that with today's technology and experience, we should have the foresight to prevent some, or even all of these tragedies on the drag strip, and in very few select cases, perhaps we could've. But by and large, we're never going to prevent accidents from happening. That's why they're called accidents.

Make no mistake about it, I'm absolutely devastated that we've lost so many in a seemingly short period of time, from Darrell Russell through Mark Niver. But let us not forget that a large percentage of the NHRA Rule Book, at least in terms of safety applications, is written in blood. This sport has endured loss of life right from it's inception, and normally, because of lessons learned, has become ever so slightly safer with each passing loss. I suspect Mark's loss will result in new safety features that will make TAD safer, whether it be in the area of improved braking systems, or better parachute attachments, or whatever... Hindsight is and always will be 20/20, but don't think foresight will ever be 20/20, because it won't.

Does it make the losses any easier to swallow? Absolutely not. But have a seat some day with Prudhomme, or Garlits, or McEwen, or Beal, or Kalitta, or McClelland, or any of the folks who've been around a while... I bet they've mourned a lot more racers in their time than we have - but they trudged on, largely because this Drag Racing thing gets in your blood and it's a disease. Let's face it, accelerating from a stand still and going ridiculously quick and fast in a short distance (1/4 mile or 1,000 feet, or 1/8 mile) is just plain cool and that will NEVER change, ever.

Those of us who came around in the late 70's and into the 80's were lucky to be introduced to the sport when it had an extremely safe record on the track. Well, we're in tough times again - just like the 60's - but I'm confident there are engineers, crew chiefs and chassis builders who will figure all this out and we'll be safer than ever. It's tough for those of us who love the sport so much to have to sit back and watch, feeling helpless and hurt, but through these incidents, safety will rise again and the sport we love will flourish forevermore.

R.I.P. Mark, you will be sorely missed - But I feel confident someone will soon walk away from a potentially fatal crash because of lessons learned from yours. God bless you and your family, friends & crew.

 

[Toejam]

I thought NHRA was mandating sweeping changes to all of these Sandtraps at these tracks? Was anything done to SIR since then????

 

[n/a]

Here's a chart for NHRA National Event tracks

in Drag Racing Online

WOW.... Everybody take a look at this chart... comforting isn't it!!(sarcastic)

There's no standardization anywhere...
and a lot of the "faster tracks" have the shortest sand traps and shut down lengths.

NHRA response today... "Carbon Fiber Brakes WILL BE Mandatory on the TAD and TAFC"...

they're kinda late again, in making that decision.

Larry Fulton

 

[the zone]

Seattle just added a trap last year as per NHRA's rules. As far as the way it is groomed, it is also groomed the way they request it. the length is 200 feet. The shutdown is the 3rd longest in the NHRA. After the two nets there is a bit of road and then tires. Probably one of the safest setups in all of NHRA. But I personally don't like the pea gravel. I think sand would be better and it should be screened to be as airy as possible so the car does dig into it. People I have talked to that were in the visinity of the crash when it happened, said he was going well under 100 and closer to 50-70 mph, when he hit the trap.
The nets, while work okay for a short wheel based cars, is a disaster for long cars. Last year Randy Eakins hit the net at Pomona and his car folded up exactly like Marks, except the front end slightly turn to the left when it folded. Also the results thankfully were not the same.

A different last resort (Not a net) should be seriously looked at.

Dean

 

[none]

Could they rig a device like that they use on aircraft carriers to stop the cars?

 

[Toejam]

Seattle just added a trap last year as per NHRA's rules. As far as the way it is groomed, it is also groomed the way they request it. the length is 200 feet. The shutdown is the 3rd longest in the NHRA. After the two nets there is a bit of road and then tires. Probably one of the safest setups in all of NHRA. But I personally don't like the pea gravel. I think sand would be better and it should be screened to be as airy as possible so the car does dig into it. People I have talked to that were in the visinity of the crash when it happened, said he was going well under 100 and closer to 50-70 mph, when he hit the trap.
The nets, while work okay for a short wheel based cars, is a disaster for long cars. Last year Randy Eakins hit the net at Pomona and his car folded up exactly like Marks, except the front end slightly turn to the left when it folded. Also the results thankfully were not the same.

A different last resort (Not a net) should be seriously looked at.

Dean

They have 200' of Sand there? Sure didn't look it on TV but Camera angles sure can deceive I guess.

 

[DragFan2]

Could they rig a device like that they use on aircraft carriers to stop the cars?

That has been brought up numerous times but the reality is that the catch device which is usually a cable would be on the surface of the track most likely and the runaway car would have to run over it at some point which is not something good when traveling at 100+ miles an hour, hoping that whatever hook mechanism on the car will catch on the cable. Works for planes landing on a carrier but I don't think so for cars and dragsters on a drag strip. The better idea so far has been one or more initial catch nets that give and breakway if necessary rather than hold rigid like what happened in Mark's case. Plus I agree the sand has to be deep enough and fluffy (fine) enough to actually cause tires to dig in and really slow down before even reaching the nets. Why does it always take someones senseless death to force safety devices to be implemented or reviewed?

 

[Old Guy Rookie]

Why does it always take someones senseless death to force safety devices to be implemented or reviewed?

Because safety is generally a reactive action rather than proactive, and has a dollar figure attached to it. Until there's been an accident of a particular nature, there's no reason to plan and allocate capital to prevent it.