Dive - Dive - Dive !!!!!!!! (2 Viewers)

[BlueStangGT]

Championships are not a right, they should be earned. Maybe if teams had won more second rounds throughout the season then winning one now wouldn't be such a big deal.

Oh pullllleeeeze. You're really reaching now, PJ. The championship still has to be "earned". Obviously the path is a little different now.

 

[PJ]

Oh pullllleeeeze. You're really reaching now, PJ. The championship still has to be "earned". Obviously the path is a little different now.

when they hand you a couple hundred points.....

 

[NHRADeuce]

You still have to earn those couple hundred points.

In any case, it's added excitement for us and I am sure a lot of other fans that are cheering their driver on.

Let's see what happens at the end of the season to pass final judgement, but so far I am leaning toward giving the thumbs up.

 

[PJ]

You still have to earn those couple hundred points.

Do you have to earn them??? or have a teammate put a 12 second time against you

In any case, it's added excitement for us and I am sure a lot of other fans that are cheering their driver on.

Let's see what happens at the end of the season to pass final judgement, but so far I am leaning toward giving the thumbs up.

of course it gets a thumbs up its helping your team your team. If you were leading the points by a few hundred you'd be pissed right now

 

[BlueStangGT]

of course it gets a thumbs up its helping your team your team. If you were leading the points by a few hundred you'd be pissed right now

I haven't heard any of the point leaders complaining... have you? I've heard a couple of mentions maybe but not beyond the extent of accepting that everyone's racing under the same rules.

 

[Billy]

It's like Dunn said..if you owned a team..and the purpose of the team was to try & win. You're racing a teammate who has a chance to be in PJ's countdown. Mel would be racing Grub for a spot.

Call me whatever..but I think it was stupid for Morgan to win..and I believe he is disappointed because of that fact.

All I can hope for now is Melanie creates havoc amongst the elite 8..(did I really say that?)

I agree - I thought it was very STUPID for Morgan to not take the dive and for melanie to "race for it." She could have raced for it against Grubnic in round two. Period.

 

[Triple Nickel II]

55 minutes until the 3rd round and we've got lane choice ... GO ZILLA!

You may have more than 55 minutes. The hold for mist is adding to the drama.

 

[nick name]

You may have more than 55 minutes. The hold for mist is adding to the drama.

I've been meaning to ask - are you the same guy who used to hang out on the old racing forum on Compuserve in the 90's?

 

[Jon Asher]

Some excellent points have been raised in this thread, with BOBBY MILLER’s post being among them – we’re going to be seeing a lot more “maneuvering” in the coming weeks.

As someone else stated, this really is all about money, sponsorship and advancing one’s personal cause.

There are valid arguments on both sides regarding going in the tank, and let’s not forget that these scenarios take place in almost every form of motorsports worldwide. Some of the most egregious have taken place in Formula 1, but they’ve also taken place in NASCAR and ARCA, too.

The new NHRA points structure is almost guaranteed to make it happen in drag racing as well, and while management may decry diving, since they set up the parameters of this program they’re just going to have to live with the negative publicity that may result.

The scenario that could easily crop up is a team owner making one of those proverbial offers that can’t be refused to another team owner whose driver is not in contention. An under-the-table cash payment could result in a non-team member actually taking a dive to help someone else advance in the points.

Remember the “Paul Smith Rule.” I have the utmost respect for the Smiths because they’ve run harder with less than anyone else I can readily think of, yet at the same time the patriarch of the family has been incredibly astute at recognizing financial opportunities and taking advantage of them.

Everyone on this board can think back to more than one NHRA championship winner who achieved that position through less than totally honest racing, and we could easily see that happening again.

Like it or not, there’s a team owner out there who, knowing he needs one more round win to be among the Final 4 come Las Vegas time, might call another team owner aside and suggest that, say, $20,000 might be a nice consolation prize for losing the next round. And what’s twenty grand compared to five hundred for the championship? To say nothing of bonuses that champion might gain from his sponsors.

P.J. SAPIENZA has essentially suggested this very scenario in his post without actually saying it.

We can argue all day on the rights and wrongs of this scenario, but one thing I find rather interesting is that this discussion didn’t come up in previous years. It’s the Countdown itself that raises these scenarios, and as Mr. Sapienza has said, any race that includes one car smoking the tires is going to be looked at in a completely different manner than it might have in the past.

Jon Asher

 

[PJ]

I haven't heard any of the point leaders complaining... have you? I've heard a couple of mentions maybe but not beyond the extent of accepting that everyone's racing under the same rules.

Well lets see just a few races ago didn't Tony say he couldn't believe they were going to take points away from them at Indy (and he's not even leading).

Force wasn't a fan until it helped him, Greg has made comments. Matt has made comments. I know of another driver who has complained behind the scenes. These guys also have to play the pc game, if they complain too loudly in public they fear the backhand of NHRA.

 

[PJ]

I understand the money and business side of it and taking a one for the team. However to Joe blow new fan (or potential fan) how does team tactics look?

 

[PJ]

I suppose now we have an interesting issue in the top fuel final.

We have a team who has spent most of the season unsponored, racing a team that if it wins gets in. Rather then a one race spnosrship deal, maybe its a one round deal........

These are not the type of scenarios a race fan should even have to consider.......

 

[BlueStangGT]

Well lets see just a few races ago didn't Tony say he couldn't believe they were going to take points away from them at Indy (and he's not even leading).

True, he said something to that effect. However, depending on the final point-count after Reading he could (or could've) had points added as easily as subtracted.

Force wasn't a fan until it helped him, Greg has made comments. Matt has made comments. I know of another driver who has complained behind the scenes. These guys also have to play the pc game, if they complain too loudly in public they fear the backhand of NHRA.

The backlash of the NHRA... rofl, now that's a good one. What're they gonna do, stop somebody from racing? If they had any kind of teeth along those lines, Larry Morgan wouldn't even be allowed on the grounds!

Look, I really don't have anything against you and I'm a firm believer that everyone is entitled to his / her own opinions. I've just grown tired of the seemingly incessant complaining about a situation that you / I / we have absolutely no control over. It is what it is and we'll just have to wait and see how things turn out. Is it going to be good for the sport in terms of recognition, coverage, purses, etc.? Who knows? I certainly don't. It may well serve to bring more dollars and interested sponsors sniffing around to drop money in the sport.

If that happens, gets too out-of-control, and ends up closing the pits due to the size of the crowds I, for one, will spend WAY more time and energy following other organizations that are more grass-roots oriented such as ADRL, FFW, NMRA, PSCA, etc. I may even have my car together enough to do a little racing myself!

 

[NHRADeuce]

Like it or not, there’s a team owner out there who, knowing he needs one more round win to be among the Final 4 come Las Vegas time, might call another team owner aside and suggest that, say, $20,000 might be a nice consolation prize for losing the next round. And what’s twenty grand compared to five hundred for the championship? To say nothing of bonuses that champion might gain from his sponsors.

Please explain to me exactly how this scenario wouldn't apply to every other season in the history of NHRA?

You can't because the countdown doesn't change the fact that some teams will do what ever it takes to win. Anyone who doesn't think that there have been team orders and paid off dives before the countdown hasn't been watching NHRA drag racing. If this had not been an issue in the past, there would not be a Paul Smith rule to begin with.

We can argue all day on the rights and wrongs of this scenario, but one thing I find rather interesting is that this discussion didn’t come up in previous years. It’s the Countdown itself that raises these scenarios, and as Mr. Sapienza has said, any race that includes one car smoking the tires is going to be looked at in a completely different manner than it might have in the past.

But it HAS come up in previous years. Many times. This board has had many heated discussions on this very topic long before there ever was a countdown. How many times was T-Ped thrashed for blowing the hides off against JF? How many times has Don Schumacher come on this board to defend his team because of diving allegations?

Does anyone here honestly blame the Worshams for Arend's nap at the line? Does anyone here honestly believe that Morgan Lucas made the right call? I doubt he does and I'd bet that he wishes he could take it back now, he'd probably have a car in the countdown if he could.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like diving at all. But, I can understand it and I certainly don't blame the team owners who are spending millions to entertain us for doing what is best for the team from time to time.

 

[PJ]

The difference is in prior years there were fewer teams involved in the championship chase. Also dives didn't start happening until later in the season.


With 8 teams in the need and/or opportunity for dives increases greatly.

Will Ashley get to race now if she lines up against Dad or Hight?

Will Doug or Hillary race against Grubby?

When we get down to 4 teams what happens with Team Force and team Shoe?

Lets remember its not always the teams that make this call, sponsors have been known to make a phone call and decide what happens.

 

[PJ]

True, he said something to that effect. However, depending on the final point-count after Reading he could (or could've) had points added as easily as subtracted.


The backlash of the NHRA... rofl, now that's a good one. What're they gonna do, stop somebody from racing? If they had any kind of teeth along those lines, Larry Morgan wouldn't even be allowed on the grounds!

Look, I really don't have anything against you and I'm a firm believer that everyone is entitled to his / her own opinions. I've just grown tired of the seemingly incessant complaining about a situation that you / I / we have absolutely no control over. It is what it is and we'll just have to wait and see how things turn out. Is it going to be good for the sport in terms of recognition, coverage, purses, etc.? Who knows? I certainly don't. It may well serve to bring more dollars and interested sponsors sniffing around to drop money in the sport.

If that happens, gets too out-of-control, and ends up closing the pits to the size of the crowds I, for one, will spend WAY more time and energy following other organizations that are more grass-roots oriented such as ADRL, FFW, NMRA, PSCA, etc. I may even have my car together enough to do a little racing myself!

Nascar had threats of fines to their drivers if they spoke against the chase when they started it, thats when they went to the old standbye "it will be good for fans" line with about zero emotion. Also there was the fear of extra scrutiny during tech inspection.


Well excuse me, I see something happening that I believe is harmful to the the sport and could hurt it chances at further growth. Rather than drinking the kool-aid and accepting it I choose to speak up.

People compain that there are not enough differing opinions here yet then complain when there is. Trust me I do not speak on this here as much as I would like. Look through my record of threads that I've started, very few countdown ones. In fact I think only 1 in the last several months. It seems others like to talk about how bad it is as well.

 

[mick]

......We have a team who has spent most of the season unsponored, racing a team that if it wins gets in. Rather then a one race deal, maybe its a one round deal........

These are not the type of scenarios a race fan should even have to consider.......

this year it's definitely a scenario everyone has to consider.
I wish Brainerd was still the last race before indy so selfish me could witness
this new midseason drama.

 

[NHRADeuce]

Nascar had threats of fines to their drivers if they spoke against the chase when they started it, thats when they went to the old standbye "it will be good for fans" line with about zero emotion. Also there was the fear of extra scrutiny during tech inspection.

This isn't Nascar though. And I haven't heard of any funny business in tech or any threat of it, so it's all just speculation.

I'd rather have 8 teams in contention with a POSSIBILITY of more diving, than having the championship wrapped up by the middle of September. Diving season traditionally has started at Indy before the countdown. At this point I think it is a good trade off to have more cars battling it out at the end of the season.

The countdown is not perfect, I think a lot of people would rather see the top 8 fight to the finish. We may still see revisions in the format, but I seriously doubt we'll be going back to the old way any time in the near future. We're stuck with the countdown whether you love it or hate it. Why not just enjoy the racing?

 

[PJ]

This isn't Nascar though. And I haven't heard of any funny business in tech or any threat of it, so it's all just speculation.

I'd rather have 8 teams in contention with a POSSIBILITY of more diving, than having the championship wrapped up by the middle of September. Diving season traditionally has started at Indy before the countdown. At this point I think it is a good trade off to have more cars battling it out at the end of the season.

The countdown is not perfect, I think a lot of people would rather see the top 8 fight to the finish. We may still see revisions in the format, but I seriously doubt we'll be going back to the old way any time in the near future. We're stuck with the countdown whether you love it or hate it. Why not just enjoy the racing?

I don't like being forced "drama" and then told how I should be so excited about it. It reminds me of the cheesey reality show or game show with the lights and dramatic music that gets old real fast. They could just draw a name out of the hat at the end of the year, there's nothing more exciting then a lottery for the championship.

I think you go out and fight all season for a championship, if you're good enough to be crowned the champ then great if not try again next year. I wouldn't want points handed to me because I couldn't get them on my own.

Believe me I wish I could ignore and just enjoy the racing but when they constantly over cram it on every broadcast. I wonder if they get paid for how many times they can mention it. At times I feel I'm like listening to like some like valley girl, but like instead of like, they like have to say countdown or chase like every couple of words.

 

[willy]

Currently..there isn't a pro class sewed up.

With the old format..it would still be an interesting rest of the season..IMO.

I'm willing to see how it pans out..what choice do I have?