CompPlus story on the FC chassis problems

[Randy]

Mats Erickson from Europe, listed as a "No Response" has responded.

He said to be sure to let the American's know he falls within in the middle group of "normalized" chassis builders and not the heat treated group.

RG

 

[You!]

When I visited with Bernie shortly after Eric's accident, I asked him if they video taped the run. He said the camera malfunctioned and there was no tape from that run.

So how did this guy evaluate Eric's run if there is no recorded version of it? And he's only seen the front view of John's crash? Uh? We've all seen it from both the front and side angles.

 

[Randy]

When I visited with Bernie shortly after Eric's accident, I asked him if they video taped the run. He said the camera malfunctioned and there was no tape from that run.

So how did this guy evaluate Eric's run if there is no recorded version of it? And he's only seen the front view of John's crash? Uh? We've all seen it from both the front and side angles.

I got a PM from someone who wanted to know this:

That's the same "guy" who refers to Murf as "the chassis constructor." Like, he barely knows him? And he's on RETAINER to the guy?

What I've been surprised by thus far is that no one seems to be mentioning that fact -- that the sanctioning bodies sole piece of supportive information came from a paid consultant to "the chassis constructor."

What do you suppose he meant by that?

RG

 

[d'kid]

Grant specifically said from the front motor plate to the back of the drivers compartment. I didn't ask him about the body tree off the rear of the cage. Those are the small tubes that support the back of the body and the puke tank.

"Never" were his exact words.

okay, next dumb question...

I know we've been doing it for the last 30 years or so...
what's the effect of running hot nitro/alky/oil through the top rail to the puke tank? Could an ignition/spark cause an unknown fire in the rail?

 

[Tim5636sc]

Keep in mind all the investigative work done was not done to discredit anyone. It was done to find out what went wrong. Are we OK saying it's OK to get killed in a race car? I hope not.

If anyone takes this personally I would suggest you look at what is being said and by who. Why does it seem that there are a couple of people willing to stick their neck out just to be right no matter how blue the sky is, in order to save someone(s) reputation or save a lawsuit.

The reality is...it's about building a safer race car AND SAVING LIVES! Nothing else. If you take it any other way, then you are sadly mistaken.

RG

Great post Randy...Exactly my feelings as well!

Timmah!

 

[mike]

Randy,

I really enjoy your postings, thank you.

 

[d'kid]

I got a PM from someone who wanted to know this:

That's the same "guy" who refers to Murf as "the chassis constructor." Like, he barely knows him? And he's on RETAINER to the guy?

What I've been surprised by thus far is that no one seems to be mentioning that fact -- that the sanctioning bodies sole piece of supportive information came from a paid consultant to "the chassis constructor."

What do you suppose he meant by that?

RG

I noticed that also during read three between post...

page 19 and 20 as printed... "on October 2, 2007we received an E-mail from Murf McKinney.... Dr. Metz is on retainer to McKinney Corporation: "We also retain Dr. Metz, Ph.D., P.E. who is retired from the University of Illinois, as a consultant."...

then go on to the link which lists L. Daniel Metz as an Expert witness...

and 2 paragraphs down that Dan Olsen was surprised that Dr. Metz was on retainer to McKinney Corp.

People, we aren't trying this.. we're looking for answers... Thank God, it's Medlen and Papa John... it's a family thing being kept in the family... trying to make things better...

 

[Ugly one]

Keep in mind all the investigative work done was not done to discredit anyone. It was done to find out what went wrong. Are we OK saying it's OK to get killed in a race car? I hope not.

If anyone takes this personally I would suggest you look at what is being said and by who. Why does it seem that there are a couple of people willing to stick their neck out just to be right no matter how blue the sky is, in order to save someone(s) reputation or save a lawsuit.

The reality is...it's about building a safer race car AND SAVING LIVES! Nothing else. If you take it any other way, then you are sadly mistaken.

RG

AMEN, Randy

 

[Jay]

Fire away, Roo. Please quote the Asher story where the "big holes" are located and then give us the details of the "big holes", your conclusions and your data source to back your findings.

PS. I also asked you to give us your sources for your information a couple weeks ago on my funny car chassis thread and the silence is deafening. I will give you a pass on that for now. Just answer the above.

Please don't give the source for your conclusions like Dr. Metz did in Asher's article by saying something like "because Murf and Dan told me."

Quote from Asher article:

Dr. Metz offers no explanation in his letter as to how he concludes both accidents were the result of tire failures, so we asked him about that.

“That’s what I’ve been told by Dan (Olson) and by the chassis constructor as well. I looked at videos of both of them, and I don’t think there’s any question about Medlen’s. The video I saw of John Force’s accident was a head-on video, so I didn’t get a good look at that, but both Dan Olson and Murf McKinney, who built the chassis, (and) I talked to both of them, and they both said that they thought that accident was initiated by rear tire failure.”

I go to the doctor with a chest pain and my wife comes with me. The doctor comes in the waiting room and we both say we think I had a heart attack. The nurse comes in the waiting room and asks the doctor if he needs assistance. "Get a room ready, I was just told he had a heart attack!"

Don't you think the doctor should at least run a test or two before agreeing with my conclusion. Heck,. I just ate a 32 ounce prime rib the night before and it might just be a bad case of heart burn.

Grant says you may think he is your friend, but he also says you incorrect in your assumptions (that all chassis will break).

Awaiting your response.

Cheers!

RG

Am I the only one that is curious to why Roo has chosen to not reply to Randy here...?

Hmmm....isn't this twice now that he has come up here and made some pretty bold statements (the other was about the funny cars 2-3 weeks ago, I believe) and when asked by very credible people here to justify and/or back it up, Roo seems to duck the opportunity to back-up his credibility...?

Makes you wonder if, well....nuff said, I guess...

 

[Ugly one]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/zipdeezip/shirt.jpg

I know I'm protected.

KS

 

[ex-nsp]

Don't think Randy's comments have ANY kind of ulterior motive other than revealing the truth-

Although back in the '70s when you proposed Top Gas West should be a dial in series, I protested.

Ohhh, whats this? Top Dragster?

You won that one!

NSP

 

[MM]

Am I the only one that is curious to why Roo has chosen to not reply to Randy here...?

Hmmm....isn't this twice now that he has come up here and made some pretty bold statements (the other was about the funny cars 2-3 weeks ago, I believe) and when asked by very credible people here to justify and/or back it up, Roo seems to duck the opportunity to back-up his credibility...?

Makes you wonder if, well....nuff said, I guess...

probably cuz he hasn't been online since randy posted that

 

[67 Cuda]

Very informative story. From an outsiders point of view, it appears that there might be some egos and feelings that are at the center of this. I don't know much but, if the airplane industry has approved or disapproved something, I would bet that they have spent many more millions on destructive testing then all of the chassis builders and NHRA and all the teams put together. I am guessing that if this information makes it to ESPN2 then there will be a bunch of changes really quickly as far as the chassis specs.

When it comes to peoples lives, I think most people would agree that whatever the price it is cheaper then to lose another racer.

 

[d'kid]

Very informative story. From an outsiders point of view, it appears that there might be some egos and feelings that are at the center of this. I don't know much but, if the airplane industry has approved or disapproved something, I would bet that they have spent many more millions on destructive testing then all of the chassis builders and NHRA and all the teams put together. I am guessing that if this information makes it to ESPN2 then there will be a bunch of changes really quickly as far as the chassis specs.

When it comes to peoples lives, I think most people would agree that whatever the price it is cheaper then to lose another racer.

I really think that Micky Thompson/ Pat Foster were on the right track back in 1970/71... driver's tub, but married to tubes as we know them in front and behind the cocoon... combo "mono" and "space" frame... they were shooting for full mono with from and rear suspension... shoot for a mono driver's tub with rails in front, under, and behind... could be both front engine, short wheelbase, and rear engine, long wheelbase...

I'm out for the night... kick it around... does anyone remember the M/T mono-mustang or Johnny Buttera's T/F for Barry Setzer?

 

[67 Cuda]

I really think that Micky Thompson/ Pat Foster were on the right track back in 1970/71... driver's tub, but married to tubes as we know them in front and behind the cocoon... combo "mono" and "space" frame... they were shooting for full mono with from and rear suspension... shoot for a mono driver's tub with rails in front, under, and behind... could be both front engine, short wheelbase, and rear engine, long wheelbase...

I'm out for the night... kick it around... does anyone remember the M/T mono-mustang or Johnny Buttera's T/F for Barry Setzer?

I think that is the M/T Mustang in the NHRA museum at the Fairplex. Got to see it earlier this year. Lots of history there. Maybe the NHRA higher ups need to look at it and remember when the rules allowed different ideas to accomplish the same goals.

 

[hoser]

I really think that Micky Thompson/ Pat Foster were on the right track back in 1970/71... driver's tub, but married to tubes as we know them in front and behind the cocoon... combo "mono" and "space" frame... they were shooting for full mono with from and rear suspension... shoot for a mono driver's tub with rails in front, under, and behind... could be both front engine, short wheelbase, and rear engine, long wheelbase...

I'm out for the night... kick it around... does anyone remember the M/T mono-mustang or Johnny Buttera's T/F for Barry Setzer?

Karl: Be careful with that idea. You may inadvertently be attracting Franklin to this thread!!

 

[Student of the sport]

Randy,
Thank you for your posts, they are informative and to the point, well stated that there is NOTHING personal about trying to find out the facts.

I hope that through this whole mess, we can keep safety as the focus and not be pre-occupied with "sniffing out the witch".

My education continues!!!!!

"D"

 

[nick name]

...I have no beef with Grant or any of the other chassis builders in this whole discussion, it is the others who are posting with no real knowledge of the situation that piss me off. People who have not actually built a race car should keep their mouths shut.

Roo, you and I go back quite a long time so please understand that I am not attacking you personally. The thing is, I strongly believe that the mindset indicated in the above statement is largely responsible for the crisis we're in right now.

Why would anyone shun or refuse to listen to the testimony of educated people who are truly the experts in the area of metallurgy, construction, and engineering standards?

As you know, I haven't spent that much time around fuel cars and am much more familiar with Pro Stock construction. The fabrication (tubing, welds, and braces) is essentially the same and thereby arises an issue that has bothered me for a long time.

There are a very few builders who have engineering degrees or other education which allowed them to plot out the necessary layout for a competitive, safe frame. The others have looked at those works, made changes that "looked right" and gone other directions. This is true for fuel, alcohol, and gasoline applications.

My point is that we should be long past the point that someone is designing race chassis on the basis of "feel", gut instinct" or "this worked before".

We require educated, degreed, certified indivuals to draw up plans for skyscrapers or other structures where strength is required to avoid deaths and chaos. The same has been true for airplanes almost since their invention. That we don't for race cars is absolutely astounding to me.

While there has never been a race car designed to withstand a 200 mph t-bone accident, I was surprised that there wasn't more interest after the Korestky / Allen crash. I suppose the spotlight dimmed since neither driver was seriously injured.

I uinderstand your respect for those that have built chassis and therefore been there, done that. But to my way of thinking, a bunch of those guys have no idea as to WHY it's been working and we've been really lucky that the "a bar right there is what I need" approach hasn't caused more loss of life.

So when engineers and metallurgists tell us we have a problem - we have a problem. And it's time to listen to the best minds on earth and engineer the safest cars possible.

 

[Tom]

Why is everyone directing their anger and frustration at Roo? This should be directed at the source! We all work for someone. You are putting him in the middle on this whole deal. I don’t feel that he should respond to the comments! Everyone is forcing him into a corner with this whole deal! I do not know Roo personally, however, I sure wouldn’t want to be in the middle of what could be a legal battle.

 

[MM]

Why is everyone directing their anger and frustration at Roo? This should be directed at the source! We all work for someone. You are putting him in the middle on this whole deal. I don’t feel that he should respond to the comments! Everyone is forcing him into a corner with this whole deal! I do not know Roo personally, however, I sure wouldn’t want to be in the middle of what could be a legal battle.

because Roo broke the cardinal rule on here.....he disagreed with the majority