CompPlus story on the FC chassis problems

[Keith Burgan]

So you're calling Grant Downing a liar? I'm beginning to think it's you that's having his strings pulled. I could be wrong.

Brent,
Grant and I have been friends for a long time and that is the last thing that I would do. Nobody is immune from chassis breakage in this day and age--it just seems to be a case of time and circumstances before it happens.
I have no beef with Grant or any of the other chassis builders in this whole discussion, it is the others who are posting with no real knowledge of the situation that piss me off. People who have not actually built a race car should keep their mouths shut. I don't build fuel cars, not because my shop is not physically capable, but because there are people with a lot more experience in that field turning out good products. We do work closely with a number of the fuel teams on various projects apart from complete cars.

Roo

 

[Toejam]

Is there any reason why this thread is wider than my monitor? I'm sick of side-scrolling every time I want to read someone's post!

 

[d'kid]

yeah it the jpeg of the builders...

 

[J.C.]

yeah it the jpeg of the builders...

Very good catch Karl! I was wondering the same thing and driving myself nuts trying to figure out why Safari wouldn't wrap the text correctly on this thread. Your explanation makes perfect sense, thanks!

 

[d'kid]

...................................

ah, boss...

understand

d'kid
Dark Horse Racing

 

[r2]

you're welcome-

 

[DrRocket]

C'mon Ray.

Spit it out bro...........


-------------------

Edit:

Oh, I get it. Thanks Ray.

Now, PLEASE, everyone. DO NOT repost the builder's jpeg.

Thank you.

 

[r2]

C'mon Ray.

Spit it out bro...........


-------------------

David-

I was just moving the page-

If no one quotes those names again, we can move forward-

More than enough has been spilt to wake up anyone!!

 

[Paul]

Although the majority of the opinions of chassis builders and engineers seem to favor the type N tubing over the hardened tubing, there are still a lot of unknowns here. Its possible that a well intended mandate to use only type N tubing could cause failures in other parts of the chassis.

In the short term its seems to me that the only reasonable thing to do is to allow the drivers and team owners to select the chassis materials that they feel will be safest for their drivers. I think it would be wrong to legislate something in based on the current somewhat limited understanding of the problems when it could be wrong and could get someone killed.

Helping the drivers, handlers and team owners get a better understanding on the tradeoffs of using these different chassis materials is an important and essential thing to do though, and I think the article was a good first step there, thanks to CompPlus for taking the time to do that.

In the long run some careful design and testing should be done to create a new generation of chassis designs that won't have these kinds of failures and will have better safety provisions for the drivers. I'm not sure where the money will come from to do that, but NHRA should figure out how to get it done. Perhaps a manufacturer could sponsor this work in exchange for some recognition, ie "NHRA Safety Engineered by XXXX".

Paul T.

 

[Horsepower & Heels]

Wow.

Very impressed with the article. I certainly hope that more research is being done into the failures... I assumed that the SFI had more definitive reasoning behind their specifications, and thought that there was no room for interpretation.

 

[d'kid]

David-

I was just moving the page-

If no one quotes those names again, we can move forward-

More than enough has been spilt to wake up anyone!!

RE: page 14 of Jon's article as printed out...

Tree, Please note the the body that hit the wall on Sunday was not the body used in testing on Monday... I would hazard to guess because of your reasons stated about the body not latching under the photo captioned "Robert Hight is the lone...."

d'kid
Dark Horse Racing

 

[d'kid]

Paul,

I believe what is needed is a driver cocoon/tub which is separate, but part of, the rest of the chassis... with no drive line parts passing through the cocoon, and the cocoon having it's own chute/ air/ fire system riding on top of the main rails... on both FC and TF cars... with that, there will be no temptation for a team to attempt a Topeka...

d'kid

 

[kingcobrafan]

Thanks for posting the list, Randy. Out of curiosity, is the Paul Sutherland listed the same one who drove for Jim Brissette MANY moons ago?

 

[Randy]

there are a number of big holes in the article in respect to some issues.
Roo

Fire away, Roo. Please quote the Asher story where the "big holes" are located and then give us the details of the "big holes", your conclusions and your data source to back your findings.

PS. I also asked you to give us your sources for your information a couple weeks ago on my funny car chassis thread and the silence is deafening. I will give you a pass on that for now. Just answer the above.

Please don't give the source for your conclusions like Dr. Metz did in Asher's article by saying something like "because Murf and Dan told me."

Quote from Asher article:

Dr. Metz offers no explanation in his letter as to how he concludes both accidents were the result of tire failures, so we asked him about that.

“That’s what I’ve been told by Dan (Olson) and by the chassis constructor as well. I looked at videos of both of them, and I don’t think there’s any question about Medlen’s. The video I saw of John Force’s accident was a head-on video, so I didn’t get a good look at that, but both Dan Olson and Murf McKinney, who built the chassis, (and) I talked to both of them, and they both said that they thought that accident was initiated by rear tire failure.”

I go to the doctor with a chest pain and my wife comes with me. The doctor comes in the waiting room and we both say we think I had a heart attack. The nurse comes in the waiting room and asks the doctor if he needs assistance. "Get a room ready, I was just told he had a heart attack!"

Don't you think the doctor should at least run a test or two before agreeing with my conclusion. Heck,. I just ate a 32 ounce prime rib the night before and it might just be a bad case of heart burn.

Grant says you may think he is your friend, but he also says you incorrect in your assumptions (that all chassis will break).

Awaiting your response.

Cheers!

RG

 

[d'kid]

Randy...

I have to ask, What's the main Difference between

A N/FC
A TA/FC
and a AA/FC
set of pipes

Beside Engine location...

d'kid

 

[Randy]

Keep in mind all the investigative work done was not done to discredit anyone. It was done to find out what went wrong. Are we OK saying it's OK to get killed in a race car? I hope not.

If anyone takes this personally I would suggest you look at what is being said and by who. Why does it seem that there are a couple of people willing to stick their neck out just to be right no matter how blue the sky is, in order to save someone(s) reputation or save a lawsuit.

The reality is...it's about building a safer race car AND SAVING LIVES! Nothing else. If you take it any other way, then you are sadly mistaken.

RG

 

[Randy]

Randy...

I have to ask, What's the main Difference between

A N/FC
A TA/FC
and a AA/FC
set of pipes

Beside Engine location...

d'kid

Plueger's Bucky Austin driven N/FC (one of the most dominant cars right now) is the same as Robert Hight's Black Mustang with regards to pipe. The length and front axle overhang are a little different, but the driver's compartment is the same.

TA/FC. Ron August has my former Plueger car and he has several 5.50's runs under his belt plus a win at the Las Vegas National's last year. It is exactly the same as Hight's black Mustang.

The SFI tag on my Uyehara TA/FC says PRO/PRO SPORTSMAN. It's the same frame.

My involvement in this is? I don't want SFI to tell me I have to run a heat treated frame and take a chance of killing my driver.

RG

 

[d'kid]

Keep in mind all the investigative work done was not done to discredit anyone. It was done to find out what went wrong. Are we OK saying it's OK to get killed in a race car? I hope not.

If anyone takes this personally I would suggest you look at what is being said and by who. Why does it seem that there are a couple of people willing to stick their neck out just to be right no matter how blue the sky is, in order to save someone(s) reputation or save a lawsuit.

The reality is...it's about building a safer race car AND SAVING LIVES! Nothing else. If you take it any other way, then you are sadly mistaken.

RG

Randy, very well put...
I'm hoping that no one is trying to throw any one "under the bus"...
And NO, it is NEVER OK for anyone to be killed...

Nor is it okay if a mfg has a solution for issues and is told "we can't because we'll have to throw are stuff away and start from scratch" see ::: Drag Racing Online ::: Part 2: Tire issues in the nitro classes are still a major problem - 10/10/2007

maybe it is time to start with a clean sheet of paper... listen to what has worked, listen to what can be done, and re-invent Floppers and Rails...

Question Everything... is there a reason Rails must be 300", is there a reason floppers must be 125"... any more than they must be 116" or 120" or that rails ideally should be the circumference of the tire?

I see a problem in the rules that except for the body, all cars must be identical... there is no wiggle room... gear spec'd, engine spec'd, tire spec'd, body must be approved, which I find funny, floppers today look more like what's on the street than they did 20 years ago, even ten... go back to the max chop of 2", min width of 66", max spoiler heights, ect.... wheelbase +/- 10% oem? I hope not...

and there in lies the problem... we've over spec'd the unimportant stuff, limiting innovation... and ignored the safety stuff


d'kid

 

[.]

Brent,
Grant and I have been friends for a long time and that is the last thing that I would do. Nobody is immune from chassis breakage in this day and age--it just seems to be a case of time and circumstances before it happens.

You said this earlier:

And anyone who tells you that funny cars from any manufacturer don't suffer from cracks in various places has their head up their arse.

Randy asked Grant about this and Grant said he's never had a tube fail. So which is it, does he have his head in his rear (your words) or are you calling him a liar? Or could it possibly be that he just hasn't had a failure and you just don't want to believe it.

 

[Randy]

You said this earlier:
Randy asked Grant about this and Grant said he's never had a tube fail. So which is it, does he have his head in his rear (your words) or are you calling him a liar? Or could it possibly be that he just hasn't had a failure and you just don't want to believe it.

Grant specifically said from the front motor plate to the back of the drivers compartment. I didn't ask him about the body tree off the rear of the cage. Those are the small tubes that support the back of the body and the puke tank.

"Never" were his exact words.