a question about redlights (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter camaro
- Start date
they make multi colored led's (i use them at work often) and a pre green leave could be easily indicated by some other color than red
and by the way, i hate that about the price is right also, i mean what's harm in guessing a price right to the dollar, but since its 1 dollor over, u lose . . . . . . . anybody got a link to the price is right bulletin boards
.
Nitro Member
Yep, here you go.. . . . . . . anybody got a link to the price is right bulletin boards
Golden-Road.net
none
Nitro Member
OK, what if I'm RED by a thou and we both breakout? Would the RED come back into play? Or would the worse breakout lose? Would you figure the Red Light back in somehow? And what if we both leave early? It seems like you open up a can of worms when what we have now is black and white. (Or Red and Green). Go RED you lose.
I don't recall the NHRA having instant green. The first tree had a five amber countdown that was later changed to three. I have seen some No Time or Call Out events that use instant green, but not an NHRA event.
When I have seen instant Green events it pretty much eliminates Red lights. In that case if you are RED you are strictly guessing.
Alan
i would think, for the entertainment value anyone would be in favor a system (not necessarily the one i'm talking about) that decides a race at the stripe as opposed to the starting line, i mean who watches a football game when its 42 to 0 after the first quarter? Consider how popular the street outlaw shows are, they start their races with a guy holding a flashlight, which to me, implies they are alot more concerned with a having drag race than the starting process. I'm not a fan of those shows, at all but that demonstrates they are not 'set in their ways' when it comes to racing. This conversation reminds me of the feeling i get when try to convince my parents about how i can replace their pile of remotes with one universal remote, but they continually insist that their current way is just as easy !! . . . . . I definitely remember instant green starts, although its possible it might have been at the pro stock / nitro meets held at my local track and not at an national event
MM
Nitro Member
And what happens on those shows when a competitor leaves before the light comes on? I cannot think of a single form of racing of any kind, be it horse, track and field, etc where when one of the participants leaves before the signal to start the race, they just tack a penalty on to the end of it. Like imagine Usain Bolt breaking from the blocks in the gold medal race of the 100m at the Olympics before the starting shot and beating the field by 5 strides, but then the officials coming to him and saying he really lost by 1 because he broke early.
again, i realize, what i'm describing is unconventional & regarded as silly but what's the alternative. race after race typically means 2 cars idling down the track, the winner saving his parts and the loser slowing because he has no chance. In all the instances u described above, despite the commitment of a some foul, you eventually get to see a race! which is my main point. In a track meet, if a guy leaves early the race is immediately stopped and they restart and the point being is you get to eventually see a race, so it never gets to a point where Bolt would need to be penalized
n/a
Nitro Member
In track and field if you jump early (red light) twice aren't you OUT? There's a red light on the tree for a reason and it's not to give a driver a second chance. Just say'n.
In a track meet, if a guy leaves early the race is immediately stopped and they restart and the point being is you get to eventually see a race, so it never gets to a point where Bolt would need to be penalized.
You have to realize that although NHRA wants the "SHOW" to be great there is the fact that this is a competition and the rules need to be what is best for the competitors. All this stuff would be great if it was a vidio game, but when you sometimes have to refuel - cool down - reset timers - etc. or even just clear & reset data recorders a lot of time - energy & even (yes) money are involved. Usane Bolt does not have to Eat - Drink - reset his shoes etc. on a always heads up start. There is also more than 2 people in a foot race which would also still be competition even if someone jumped the gun.
You have to realize that although NHRA wants the "SHOW" to be great there is the fact that this is a competition and the rules need to be what is best for the competitors. All this stuff would be great if it was a vidio game, but when you sometimes have to refuel - cool down - reset timers - etc. or even just clear & reset data recorders a lot of time - energy & even (yes) money are involved. Usane Bolt does not have to Eat - Drink - reset his shoes etc. on a always heads up start. There is also more than 2 people in a foot race which would also still be competition even if someone jumped the gun.
none
Nitro Member
James,
I appreciate the thought that you put into this as well as the discussion.
One of the things that I like about NHRA is that you get no second chances. Make a mistake and you lose. Every run is like a sudden death playoff.
Miss the dial? Go home.
Spin the tires? Go home.
Make a bad call at the stripe? Go home.
Sleep at the tree? Go home.
And of course, Red light? Go home.
I like watching the pressure players perform, and if they intimidate the opponent into a RED light, they should be rewarded with the win.
I agree that watching Red light after Red light (which happens sometimes) isn't very entertaining, but you don't change the rules because the players are making mistakes.
The drivers first job is to get a green light, if he or she doesn't, they deserve to lose the race. And the rules are the same for both lanes, if a guy gets a second chance after being early, why shouldn't a guy have another chance if he's late? Because you get one shot. And if you miss? You can have another chance.... At the Next Race!
JMHO,
Alan
I appreciate the thought that you put into this as well as the discussion.
One of the things that I like about NHRA is that you get no second chances. Make a mistake and you lose. Every run is like a sudden death playoff.
Miss the dial? Go home.
Spin the tires? Go home.
Make a bad call at the stripe? Go home.
Sleep at the tree? Go home.
And of course, Red light? Go home.
I like watching the pressure players perform, and if they intimidate the opponent into a RED light, they should be rewarded with the win.
I agree that watching Red light after Red light (which happens sometimes) isn't very entertaining, but you don't change the rules because the players are making mistakes.
The drivers first job is to get a green light, if he or she doesn't, they deserve to lose the race. And the rules are the same for both lanes, if a guy gets a second chance after being early, why shouldn't a guy have another chance if he's late? Because you get one shot. And if you miss? You can have another chance.... At the Next Race!
JMHO,
Alan
consider this for a second, drag racing is probably the top sport (racing or any other sport for that matter) where your fate is decided in quickest amount of time. Given that scenario, getting a second chance, because your a couple thou off, wouldn't seem like the worst thing in the world. I just think about the poor guy who hauls his racecar hundreds and hundreds of miles, only to turn right back around and go back home, all because he was .002 red in the first round. Lets face it! losing gets old real fast. Very few racers, over the years, quit while their still kicking ass. We all mock the 'Everyone gets A Trophy' scenario but it has a purpose, it encourages the non winners to keep trying and not give up, thus participation remains high, especially with kids. By the way, how do you all feel about 'Buy Backs'. The national events and points meet do not have those, but i believe most of the local track, weekly races have them and i'm guessing the racers don't mind it so much!
I can appreciate where James is coming from. Though I don't agree with his approach, I too get frustrated with the amount of red lights, especially in my favorite class, Comp Eliminator. Why has every aspect of drag racing evolved to a much greater extent than the christmas tree? As a spectator and a participant at the local level, I fully agree with James that something could and should be done. Here are my thoughts. First, make TruStart the standard. For those who don't know what TruStart is, it comes into play when both drivers red light in a bracket race. Instead of the slower car always being the car disqualified, TruStart disqualifies the driver who made the bigger mistake. Example: Slow car takes off and goes .001 red. His or her light is shown as green for the time being. Faster car takes off and goes .050 red. This is a much worse red light so the red light would come on in the faster car's lane and the slower car would get the win light. Had the faster car gone green, the red light would come on in the slow car's lane (and the win light on the fast cars side would light up) and he/she would be eliminated. This TruStart system is already a part of the Compulink timing system so it's not like a massive upgrade is needed. Bandimere runs every event using this system except the NHRA divisional and national events.
Second thought, speed up the timing of the bulbs. The tree has been a 5 tenths/4 tenths tree since the 60's or 70s. Yet the cars are quicker, faster, and lighter so they launch much quicker now than they did back then. Why haven't the bulb times been modified to keep up with the performance of the cars? Every other facet of drag racing, from the track, to the safety gear, to the chassis requirements, etc., has had to continually evolve to keep up with the performance of the cars. But not the christmas tree. There are several cars/classes in Comp Eliminator, plus Top Dragster, plus Top Sportsman that are quicker than Pro Stock, yet Pro Stock leaves on a 4 tenths tree and the bracket classes use 5. That doesn't make any sense to me. Why not move Comp, TD, TS to a 4 tenths FULL tree? The 3 bulbs still count down, just like they do today, but at a 4 tenths pace instead of 5. Some drivers could get rid of their delay box completely while others would just need to pull a tenth out of theirs. (And maybe Craig Bourgeios wouldn't have to use the largest front tires known to man, ;-) ) Sticking with this theme, why not move Stock/SS down to something like .475, .470, .465? The cars in these classes have way more performance than the ones from 50 years ago, yet they're expected to react to the exact same 5 tenths tree. Heck, the addition of the LED lights in the early 2000s chopped about 2-3 hun from every driver's reaction time (regardless of class) since the lights are easier to see, adding another factor leading to quicker reacting cars and yet, no adjustment was made to the bulb times.
In my mind, these two ideas seem like something that could add value for the spectators, increase fairness for the racers (TruStart), while at the same time not disrupting the integrity of the race and the purpose the christmas tree is supposed to serve. With the usual reluctance to change, I'm fully prepared to hear how terrible these ideas are.
By the way Alan, can you confirm, or perhaps correct me, but I believe the Pro Stock Motorcycle class has been on a .370 tree since the LEDs were put in place because they react too quick and would go read every single time on a 4 tenths tree. I thought I remember reading about this somewhere.
Second thought, speed up the timing of the bulbs. The tree has been a 5 tenths/4 tenths tree since the 60's or 70s. Yet the cars are quicker, faster, and lighter so they launch much quicker now than they did back then. Why haven't the bulb times been modified to keep up with the performance of the cars? Every other facet of drag racing, from the track, to the safety gear, to the chassis requirements, etc., has had to continually evolve to keep up with the performance of the cars. But not the christmas tree. There are several cars/classes in Comp Eliminator, plus Top Dragster, plus Top Sportsman that are quicker than Pro Stock, yet Pro Stock leaves on a 4 tenths tree and the bracket classes use 5. That doesn't make any sense to me. Why not move Comp, TD, TS to a 4 tenths FULL tree? The 3 bulbs still count down, just like they do today, but at a 4 tenths pace instead of 5. Some drivers could get rid of their delay box completely while others would just need to pull a tenth out of theirs. (And maybe Craig Bourgeios wouldn't have to use the largest front tires known to man, ;-) ) Sticking with this theme, why not move Stock/SS down to something like .475, .470, .465? The cars in these classes have way more performance than the ones from 50 years ago, yet they're expected to react to the exact same 5 tenths tree. Heck, the addition of the LED lights in the early 2000s chopped about 2-3 hun from every driver's reaction time (regardless of class) since the lights are easier to see, adding another factor leading to quicker reacting cars and yet, no adjustment was made to the bulb times.
In my mind, these two ideas seem like something that could add value for the spectators, increase fairness for the racers (TruStart), while at the same time not disrupting the integrity of the race and the purpose the christmas tree is supposed to serve. With the usual reluctance to change, I'm fully prepared to hear how terrible these ideas are.
By the way Alan, can you confirm, or perhaps correct me, but I believe the Pro Stock Motorcycle class has been on a .370 tree since the LEDs were put in place because they react too quick and would go read every single time on a 4 tenths tree. I thought I remember reading about this somewhere.
Luke Nieuwhof
Nitro Member
I like the comparison to The Price is Right. It sums up why red lights should remain. You can take the gamble of a really good light but the risk grows exponentially the harder you push. That brings more skill into it.
As far as entertainment value goes, why worry? No one is watching the sportsman racing. We don’t need to make spectator-based changes when they aren’t going to ever be interested in those classes.
As far as entertainment value goes, why worry? No one is watching the sportsman racing. We don’t need to make spectator-based changes when they aren’t going to ever be interested in those classes.
none
Nitro Member
Frank,
TruStart is used with Cross Talk not in a normal handicap race. If I'm wrong about that please correct me.
The thought process was always that the slow driver had the disadvantage to potentially Red Light and lose first, but had the advantage of a "Clean Tree". As in nothing to distract him/her.
The fast driver had the advantage of potentially winning the race before moving, but had the disadvantage of the "Dirty Tree" as he/she had to deal with the lights flashing or the other car driving by as you try to concentrate on the bulb. So each has both an advantage and a disadvantage.
When Cross Talk came into play the advantage of having the "Clean Tree" was taken away from the slow car as the top bulb comes on both sides at the same time. For those who don't know Cross Talk does just that. If you are dialed 9.00 and I'm 7.00 both top bulbs come on at the same time. Your side of the tree counts down as usual. My top bulb stays on for two seconds before counting down. Both react to the first flash at the same time, then the delay box takes over.
In that case TruStart makes it equal as we both had the same shot at the tree, both are using a delay box, so the worst foul is counted.
In Stock, Super Stock and COMP delay boxes are not allowed, the drivers skill and concentration are needed to be successful. If I spend time and money practicing my skills and making my car leave consistently by testing when it's light, dark, hot, cold, and I know what to adjust so I will have an advantage over the average guy. Why would it be right to make it easier for someone to win without putting in the effort?
I want it to be hard to win, that makes it special when you do win.
Buy Backs are a completely different thing. You make a mistake, you lose and you pay for that. In Cash. It is another chance to compete after you make a mistake, but it aint a free second chance.
I play a little Golf and I'm not very good, if they made the hole three feet in diameter that would make it easier for a guy with limited skills. But I don't want them to make the hole three feet in diameter to make it easier, if I make a birdie, I want to earn it.
Alan
TruStart is used with Cross Talk not in a normal handicap race. If I'm wrong about that please correct me.
The thought process was always that the slow driver had the disadvantage to potentially Red Light and lose first, but had the advantage of a "Clean Tree". As in nothing to distract him/her.
The fast driver had the advantage of potentially winning the race before moving, but had the disadvantage of the "Dirty Tree" as he/she had to deal with the lights flashing or the other car driving by as you try to concentrate on the bulb. So each has both an advantage and a disadvantage.
When Cross Talk came into play the advantage of having the "Clean Tree" was taken away from the slow car as the top bulb comes on both sides at the same time. For those who don't know Cross Talk does just that. If you are dialed 9.00 and I'm 7.00 both top bulbs come on at the same time. Your side of the tree counts down as usual. My top bulb stays on for two seconds before counting down. Both react to the first flash at the same time, then the delay box takes over.
In that case TruStart makes it equal as we both had the same shot at the tree, both are using a delay box, so the worst foul is counted.
In Stock, Super Stock and COMP delay boxes are not allowed, the drivers skill and concentration are needed to be successful. If I spend time and money practicing my skills and making my car leave consistently by testing when it's light, dark, hot, cold, and I know what to adjust so I will have an advantage over the average guy. Why would it be right to make it easier for someone to win without putting in the effort?
I want it to be hard to win, that makes it special when you do win.
Buy Backs are a completely different thing. You make a mistake, you lose and you pay for that. In Cash. It is another chance to compete after you make a mistake, but it aint a free second chance.
I play a little Golf and I'm not very good, if they made the hole three feet in diameter that would make it easier for a guy with limited skills. But I don't want them to make the hole three feet in diameter to make it easier, if I make a birdie, I want to earn it.
Alan
TD5023
Nitro Member
This. I'm sure I'll regret even mentioning it, but the best example here is the .90 classes. People say they don't want to watch cars go-stop-go, but those same people would likely never watch a super pro race, either. Any racing with a breakout is not going to interest a normal National Event spectator, and trying to change them for viewer appeal would do more harm than good from a participant standpoint. If the discussion is about removing the current sportsman classes and only running entertaining ones, then fine, but that's for a different thread since I don't want to hijack this one too badly.
I don't post on here as much as others so let's see if I have the whole "quoting other posts and replying" thing figured out.
I'm glad you brought this up. Are you really honing your skills here? Or are you just having to use some gadgets and gimmicks to try and make it work? Let's pretend Erica Enders decides to run Comp Eliminator instead of Pro Stock. Same car, same motor, same everything. Her car can slide right into the A/A class. If she uses her normal staging and launch routine, she will red light by a tenth of a second every single time since the Comp tree is a full tenth slower. She already stages as shallow as possible so she can't make any adjustment there. Her only option at this point would be to see the yellow bulb come on and then somehow try and wait a tenth of a second, before releasing the clutch. As talented as Erica is, she would have a very, very, difficult time cutting consistent lights using this method. So what's the answer? Start using gadgets and gimmicks. Try tinkering with the throttle linkage/throttle body. Increase the front tire diameter to put more roll out in play. Stagger the front tires as far as NHRA will allow. Start taking sleeping pills 30 minutes before eliminations . Say heck with it, put a delay box in the car, and move over to Top Sportsman. My point is essentially this. I see reaction times like an old school shootout. Each driver pulls their gun from their holster as fast as they can and takes their shot. In this Erica Enders scenario, you've just taken one of the fastest gunslingers out there and now you're telling her when she pulls her gun, she needs to pause a tenth of a second or she'll get a false start penalty and lose. Or figure out a way to pull her gun slower without a pause. Wasn't the point of the original flag starters and all of the hand and flashlight starts you see on these Street Outlaws and No Prep shows, because the driver who can react the quickest should get an advantage? Why should any driver have to spend time and money trying to figure out ways to make their car, their eyes, or their feet react slower? In my mind, this goes against the complete essence of drag racing.
Thoughts?
At Bandimere it is used for all bracket racing. The Summit E.T. series (Super Pro, Pro, Sportsman, High School), the Stock/SS combo class, Top Dragster and Top Sportsman (called Fast 16 and Quick 16), the Friday night Street E.T. series (which has very similar rules to Pro and Sportsman).
With all of the blinders, etc., in play today I'm not sure how big of a factor this still is. But it might be to some drivers so I understand the point.
I'm glad you brought this up. Are you really honing your skills here? Or are you just having to use some gadgets and gimmicks to try and make it work? Let's pretend Erica Enders decides to run Comp Eliminator instead of Pro Stock. Same car, same motor, same everything. Her car can slide right into the A/A class. If she uses her normal staging and launch routine, she will red light by a tenth of a second every single time since the Comp tree is a full tenth slower. She already stages as shallow as possible so she can't make any adjustment there. Her only option at this point would be to see the yellow bulb come on and then somehow try and wait a tenth of a second, before releasing the clutch. As talented as Erica is, she would have a very, very, difficult time cutting consistent lights using this method. So what's the answer? Start using gadgets and gimmicks. Try tinkering with the throttle linkage/throttle body. Increase the front tire diameter to put more roll out in play. Stagger the front tires as far as NHRA will allow. Start taking sleeping pills 30 minutes before eliminations
. Say heck with it, put a delay box in the car, and move over to Top Sportsman. My point is essentially this. I see reaction times like an old school shootout. Each driver pulls their gun from their holster as fast as they can and takes their shot. In this Erica Enders scenario, you've just taken one of the fastest gunslingers out there and now you're telling her when she pulls her gun, she needs to pause a tenth of a second or she'll get a false start penalty and lose. Or figure out a way to pull her gun slower without a pause. Wasn't the point of the original flag starters and all of the hand and flashlight starts you see on these Street Outlaws and No Prep shows, because the driver who can react the quickest should get an advantage? Why should any driver have to spend time and money trying to figure out ways to make their car, their eyes, or their feet react slower? In my mind, this goes against the complete essence of drag racing.I completely agree. And if I ever get the chance to line up against Erica, I want it to be in a class where I know she is pulling her gun/releasing that clutch as fast as she possibly can trying to kick my ass, because I'm going to be doing the same in my lane. On the other hand, if I race her in comp and I win because she goes red by a full tenth, or she cuts a .167 light trying not to go red, it completely ruins it for me. In my opinion, by having a 5 tenths tree in the real fast classes like Comp, TD and TS, you've made the hole 1 foot in diameter for those who don't have naturally quick reactions/good putting skills, while at the same time, you've forced those who are really quick/good at putting, to use a driver to putt with.
Thoughts?
winr
Nitro Member
So after reading all the posts and digesting the pros and cons of red light or no redlight, Brake out after or double breakout and how to determine the most entertaining race , how about we leave well enough alone...because for every red light there must be a .001-2 package going unnoticed...$.02
dr flames
Nitro Member
I’m pretty sure you bolt twice in the same race in track and you are disqualified
James
Nitro Member
The Pro Stock racers use clutch pedal adjustments to adjust their reaction times, a gadget or gimmick some would say. What makes Erica so damn good IMHO is her consistency, allowing her crew to adjust the pedal closer to the "kill zone".I don't post on here as much as others so let's see if I have the whole "quoting other posts and replying" thing figured out.
At Bandimere it is used for all bracket racing. The Summit E.T. series (Super Pro, Pro, Sportsman, High School), the Stock/SS combo class, Top Dragster and Top Sportsman (called Fast 16 and Quick 16), the Friday night Street E.T. series (which has very similar rules to Pro and Sportsman).
With all of the blinders, etc., in play today I'm not sure how big of a factor this still is. But it might be to some drivers so I understand the point.
I'm glad you brought this up. Are you really honing your skills here? Or are you just having to use some gadgets and gimmicks to try and make it work? Let's pretend Erica Enders decides to run Comp Eliminator instead of Pro Stock. Same car, same motor, same everything. Her car can slide right into the A/A class. If she uses her normal staging and launch routine, she will red light by a tenth of a second every single time since the Comp tree is a full tenth slower. She already stages as shallow as possible so she can't make any adjustment there. Her only option at this point would be to see the yellow bulb come on and then somehow try and wait a tenth of a second, before releasing the clutch. As talented as Erica is, she would have a very, very, difficult time cutting consistent lights using this method. So what's the answer? Start using gadgets and gimmicks. Try tinkering with the throttle linkage/throttle body. Increase the front tire diameter to put more roll out in play. Stagger the front tires as far as NHRA will allow. Start taking sleeping pills 30 minutes before eliminations
I completely agree. And if I ever get the chance to line up against Erica, I want it to be in a class where I know she is pulling her gun/releasing that clutch as fast as she possibly can trying to kick my ass, because I'm going to be doing the same in my lane. On the other hand, if I race her in comp and I win because she goes red by a full tenth, or she cuts a .167 light trying not to go red, it completely ruins it for me. In my opinion, by having a 5 tenths tree in the real fast classes like Comp, TD and TS, you've made the hole 1 foot in diameter for those who don't have naturally quick reactions/good putting skills, while at the same time, you've forced those who are really quick/good at putting, to use a driver to putt with.
Thoughts?
