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a question about redlights (7 Viewers)

camaro

Nitro Member
I like watching the super stock /stock classes, however it seems like you cant have two races in row without one of the cars red lighting. maybe it's me and this doesn't happen as often as i notice. So my question is why not have a system, where instead of being disqualified for a red light, the car is just penalized. In other words, the amount of time a driver left early is subtracted from his margin at the stripe. Perhaps i'm missing something as to why this would flat out not work, but if it was implemented, it would be better for optics, not having a slew of races being over immediately at the launch and race after race still being decided at the finish line. And maybe have the penalty increased , the worst the red light is, to prevent drivers from intentionally fouling
 

n/a

Nitro Member
I like watching the super stock /stock classes, however it seems like you cant have two races in row without one of the cars red lighting. maybe it's me and this doesn't happen as often as i notice. So my question is why not have a system, where instead of being disqualified for a red light, the car is just penalized. In other words, the amount of time a driver left early is subtracted from his margin at the stripe. Perhaps i'm missing something as to why this would flat out not work, but if it was implemented, it would be better for optics, not having a slew of races being over immediately at the launch and race after race still being decided at the finish line. And maybe have the penalty increased , the worst the red light is, to prevent drivers from intentionally fouling
Hey James. My first thought was that you are taking the skill of the driver out of the equation. And I'm always impressed at a driver that can chop a tree down. Also, to keep the playing field equal do you credit a driver for sleeping when the green light comes on?
 

TD5023

Nitro Member
I like watching the super stock /stock classes, however it seems like you cant have two races in row without one of the cars red lighting. maybe it's me and this doesn't happen as often as i notice. So my question is why not have a system, where instead of being disqualified for a red light, the car is just penalized. In other words, the amount of time a driver left early is subtracted from his margin at the stripe. Perhaps i'm missing something as to why this would flat out not work, but if it was implemented, it would be better for optics, not having a slew of races being over immediately at the launch and race after race still being decided at the finish line. And maybe have the penalty increased , the worst the red light is, to prevent drivers from intentionally fouling
As a bracket racer, I would absolutely hate it if this were implemented in any class I'm running. Finish line margin is treated entirely differently when breakouts are in effect, as opposed to heads-up racing. How do you add time to the margin when the cars are driving the stripe? Remember, our goal is the snug up the stripe, not take it by as much as possible. Adjusting it by the amount of the foul could benefit the one who went red because only they will know how much fudge room is now available (unless both go red, of course). Changing the margin by some amount relative to the foul would be even more confusing to explain and not fun at all for the drivers to deal with.

I get that red light races aren't fun to watch, but I don't think anybody running the classes would be in favor of a red being anything but an instant loss, oddball circumstances excepted. If they told me that TD is trying this out on an experimental basis, then I'm pulling off the supercharger and going super pro racing until it's reversed.
 

LasVegas87

Nitro Member
It takes patience and skill to wait for that 3 amber tree to fall especially when you're giving a head start. The guy leaving first wouldn't know how much the other guy went red, etc so the penalty at the finish line would give the advantage to the guy going red I would think. It's still a 0.5 tree in those classes correct? Would a quicker and/or pro tree eliminate red lights? Probably not. The fact that a race can be decided by 0.001 is both exciting and frustrating. But it's great.
 

camaro

Nitro Member
i guess i'm just looking at it from a spectator point of view. when i used to subscribe to the NHRATV and the super stock / stock eliminations were run, i remember, instead of rooting for a particular car, i would just pray for an all green start, just so i can see a battle at the finish line. Michael, How is it not 'racing' if there's a penalty instead of a disqualification ? if anything i would think a lot more racing would occur, instead of the disqualified car idling down the track, every other run !
 

4onthefl4

Nitro Member
The other night I was watching Street Outlaws Mega Cash Days on Motor Trend TV (yeah, I know it's a scripted reality show) and they had something called "double eliminations" where the loser of each round would race the other losers for a smaller prize. I guess you could call the winner of that race the "first place loser" or "the second place winner".
This scenario could work at smaller pro races like the upcoming Door Slammer Nationals. However, it probably wouldn't work at NHRA events because of the time constraints of live TV and oil downs and crashes. For example, how long did take to clean up Leah Pruetts crash? And you have to consider a lot of spectators don't wait under the final round. I don't know how many drag races I've been to where the stands are almost empty for the final round.
What I'm saying is, the NHRA starting system works, and if it ain't broke don't fix it.
 

MHayes

Staff member
Nitro Member
Michael, How is it not 'racing' if there's a penalty instead of a disqualification ? if anything i would think a lot more racing would occur, instead of the disqualified car idling down the track, every other run !

I can't argue that there wouldn't be more racing with no red lights, but I just feel that it would cheapen the whole notion of competition. That, I and think that Brad made some good points as to why it would not go over well with the racers.
 

Pete

Nitro Member
Redlights can be caused by the setups of respective classes. If a car lifts the wheel at the hit instead of moving forward, you run the risk the tire being pulled up out of the beam instead of using the rollout of the tire. Think of it...and my numbers may be off, but a front tire tickles the stage beam and can roll roughly 7-8" before leaving that beam. If it pulls up instead, you really only have the height of the beam, roughly 2-3"....both scenarios can cause a redlight. This plus the inherent timing of a full tree creates a tightrope these racers have to walk to stay green.

Stock suspension cars (i.e., Stock/some Super Stock classes) have front suspension travel that help with this, but again to leave properly on a full tree, everything has to bein motion prior to the 3rd amber turning on...
 

Blacktooth Grin

Nitro Member
I like watching the super stock /stock classes, however it seems like you cant have two races in row without one of the cars red lighting. maybe it's me and this doesn't happen as often as i notice. So my question is why not have a system, where instead of being disqualified for a red light, the car is just penalized. In other words, the amount of time a driver left early is subtracted from his margin at the stripe. Perhaps i'm missing something as to why this would flat out not work, but if it was implemented, it would be better for optics, not having a slew of races being over immediately at the launch and race after race still being decided at the finish line. And maybe have the penalty increased , the worst the red light is, to prevent drivers from intentionally fouling
What would you correct them to, a perfect light? In that case, I'd do my damndest to leave early every time.
 

camaro

Nitro Member
With all the trouble NHRA has trying to level the playing field in FSS (if that’s what they actually want), I can’t imagine what kind of fiasco it would become with adjusting times for red lights.
Keep it simple; if you red light, you lose.
obviously i wouldn't suggest this for any "heads up all out racing' category, just stock super stock, where redlights are in abundance. In fact i thought i read, that the NHRA abolish the 'instant green' tree, years ago because of to many redlights
What would you correct them to, a perfect light? In that case, I'd do my damndest to leave early every time.
that's why i also pointed out that the more severe the red light, the heavier the penalty, thus discouraging intentional redlights
 

camaro

Nitro Member
Isn't an automatic disqualification heavy enough to discourage it?
and yet it seems it doesn't. . . . . . . . . again i'm only spitballing here, just speaking from a spectator /entertainment point of view. And i'm well aware that this will never come to fruition, especially since for 30 years or so there are categories, where hi powered races cars idle all the way to half track, then start racing !!
 

none

Nitro Member
James,
I'm genuinely curious. How would it work in your mind? If you're dialed 12.00 and I'm dialed 11.00.
Your reaction time is .020 I am -.010 RED.

How would I win? What would I have to do?

Alan
 
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TSK

Staff member
Nitro Member
Do you want the racers to decide who wins, or would you rather have somebody at NHRA trying to put a formula together to decide the race’s outcome?
 

camaro

Nitro Member
James,
I'm genuinely curious. How would it work in your mind? If you're dialed 12.00 and I'm dialed 11.00.
You're reaction time is .020 I am -.010 RED.

How would I win? What would I have to do?

Alan
2 things regarding your situation. After the 1 second spot handicap u would give me, and assuming if we both ran dead on our dials. you would beat me to the stripe by .030, however you are penalized that .010 that u took off the tree so your win light would be delayed by said amount and you would now only have a mov of .02 . So Now, in theory your red light did not have an effect on your victory, since it took me another .020 to to leave the starting line.
The other key thing is, since .010 is considered a bad or severe red light, the penalty would be compounded by its severity thus instead of you penalized just that .010 you would be penalized an additional amount (exponentially for example) proportional to the further you are away from .000, thus discouraging you from intentionally leaving early to assure taking the stripe first. I know this sounds nuts but i'd rather see this than red lights all day long !!
 

camaro

Nitro Member
Do you want the racers to decide who wins, or would you rather have somebody at NHRA trying to put a formula together to decide the race’s outcome?
The driver is still very much involved as he has to still leave as close to the green as possible and get the car to run as close to the dial as possible.

How does a formula soley determine the winner ?, when the elements or terms of said formula are always determined by the car / driver ??
 

camaro

Nitro Member
Same race as outlined above. I can't catch you so I hit the brakes. You breakout, I don't.

Who wins?

Alan
well i guess since my objective is to eliminate alot of the red lights i would deem breaking out a worst penalty, therefore u would get the win, but at least our race was decided at the stripe instead of the starting line ey! . . . . by the way do u recall the reason NHRA converted to 4 tenths green from instant ?
 
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