a question about redlights (1 Viewer)

[none]

I was not aware that Bandimere did that. I guess I would need to see it in practice but my knee jerk reaction is that it you're taking away one advantage of the fast car.

If I go testing with my car and practice on my tree how is that a gimmick? Have you ever raced? The best way to be consistent is for the driver to do the same thing every time and to adjust the car for changing conditions. If I know that dropping the starting line RPM a 200 will keep me green when the sun goes down, or that putting more air in the front tires can turn my .026 light into a .012 I call that being a smart racer. If you have a delay box, the driver does the same thing and you adjust the box for changing conditions.

In your EE scenario what would you do for a guy with a slower reacting heavier car? My H/AA doesn't leave that hard and on the quick tree I would have to start guessing to be decent.

Reaction time has always been a combination of car and driver, I'm not taking anything away from EE but that team has worked hard to make the car react quickly and EE is very good also, that's the winning combination. Drag Racing has always been about doing it better than the other guy, if I have figured out a way to have consistently good green lights and you haven't, then I have done my job.

It sounds like you think Instant Green would be the way to go. And all that does is promote guessing and it often rewards it as well.

Alan

 

[Notch1320]

During my tenure at Englishtown we had what is now called "Quick 8" and experimented with instant green for the heads-up start. It was a disaster, more red-lights than I've ever seen, the racers hated it and we never tried it again.

 

[robinjackson]

I’m pretty sure you bolt twice in the same race in track and you are disqualified

FWIW, nowadays in Track & Field, it's instant disqualification if you false start -- no second chance, just as in drag racing. Bolt himself was DQ'd for jumping the gun in the 2011 World Championship final over 100 metres in South Korea.

 

[racer3912]

Frank,
TruStart is used with Cross Talk not in a normal handicap race. If I'm wrong about that please correct me.


Alan

We use TruStart in no box and occasionally in Jr Dragster at Byron, without using Cross Talk

 

[none]

We use TruStart in no box and occasionally in Jr Dragster at Byron, without using Cross Talk

How do the racers feel about it?
Alan

 

[James]

New England Dragway also uses Truestart in it's A&B Tire Pro ET (No Box) class.

 

[Mike]

Tru start can be used in any type of drag race. If its a double red light start the worse of the 2 red lights is headed to the trailer

 

[none]

I was not aware that TruStart was being so widely used.

Learn something new everyday.....

Alan

 

[Frank]

I was not aware that Bandimere did that. I guess I would need to see it in practice but my knee jerk reaction is that it you're taking away one advantage of the fast car.

The faster car has the advantage at the stripe. Wouldn't the faster car having a "dirty tree" at the beginning help even things up?

If I go testing with my car and practice on my tree how is that a gimmick? Have you ever raced? The best way to be consistent is for the driver to do the same thing every time and to adjust the car for changing conditions. If I know that dropping the starting line RPM a 200 will keep me green when the sun goes down, or that putting more air in the front tires can turn my .026 light into a .012 I call that being a smart racer. If you have a delay box, the driver does the same thing and you adjust the box for changing conditions.

It sounds like you think Instant Green would be the way to go. And all that does is promote guessing and it often rewards it as well.

I do race. I finished tied for 3rd in Pro and finished 5th in Sportsman points at Bandimere in 2020. I agree with what you're saying here. Maybe gimmick wasn't the right word. But, this kind of fine tuning is only possible if a base line consistent green light is even attainable. For the record, I'm not advocating for an instant green. What I'm advocating for is a middle ground based on math and science. The christmas tree was introduced in 1963 (using wikipedia as my source). Why was 5 tenths picked as the time between bulbs? What science or math was used to get to that number or was it arbitrarily chosen? In 1971, the professional tree was introduced along with the move to 4 tenths for the pro classes. Why did they want to move the pros to 4 tenths? Driver feedback perhaps? My theory is, at some point in time between 1963 and 1971 someone had an idea along the lines of, "this set of cars react much quicker than this other set of cars. Therefore, we're going to use a 4 tenths tree for them, and keep the slower 5 tenths tree for the others." And herein lies my fascination. I'm blown away by the fact that a rule/idea which was enacted based on the performance of the vehicles in 1971, has now gone 50 years without being re-evaluated or revised as the sport has evolved. Think of all the other rules/ideas instituted in the late 60s/early 70s and the revisions/additions they've had as the cars across the board continued to get quicker and faster, year after year. It seems so weird to me with how much quicker and lighter today's cars are compared to 1971, there hasn't been at least a discussion as to whether the starting line timing elements instituted in 1971 are still valid and/or correct.

In your EE scenario what would you do for a guy with a slower reacting heavier car? My H/AA doesn't leave that hard and on the quick tree I would have to start guessing to be decent.

Reaction time has always been a combination of car and driver, I'm not taking anything away from EE but that team has worked hard to make the car react quickly and EE is very good also, that's the winning combination. Drag Racing has always been about doing it better than the other guy, if I have figured out a way to have consistently good green lights and you haven't, then I have done my job.

In my opinion, every car in comp eliminator could react just fine to a 4 tenths, or at the slowest, a .425 tree. I think the vast majority are doing things to "slow" their reaction times to make the 5 tenths tree work. (Not to mention, they don't want to put a delay box in and go run TD/TS)

I agree with you, the car and driver have to work in harmony to be successful, and believe me, I understand the effort it takes to get there. I am curious though. Would you feel the same way if NHRA announced from this point forward, all classes will use a 5 tenths tree? The pros would still get a single flash of yellow, but instead of 4 tenths it would be 5 tenths. Or in a more extreme example, what if the NHRA moved to 1 full second between yellow to green? I guess what I'm saying is, when does the line of thinking go from, "it's up to the drivers and crews to figure out how to make the cars react to the timing of the yellow/green dictated in the rules," to "the timing of the yellow/green in the rules needs to be reconsidered and possibly modified?"

As for TruStart, I know Biondo and Siepel use it at their high dollar bracket events (though I do believe they are all cross talk classes).
Here is a link to an article at the St. Louis track in 2017 announcing they were going to try TruStart in their bracket program and see how it went. https://www.wwtraceway.com/compulink-trustart-to-be-used-in-gateway-motorsports-park-dragplex/ The link also talks about multiple divisions using TruStart at the E.T. Finals. Here is a link to the rules for Pro at St. Louis for 2020. https://www.wwtraceway.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Pro.pdf TruStart is in the rules, so the feedback from the 2017 trial run must have been positive.

Good discussion, thanks for engaging Alan and others.

 

[Luke Nieuwhof]

For reference, every class in Australia - from Junior Dragsters and Super Street to Top Fuel - have a four tenths tree. Obviously still a full tree for sportsman and heads-up for pros.

 

[TD5023]

The faster car has the advantage at the stripe. Wouldn't the faster car having a "dirty tree" at the beginning help even things up?

The argument I've heard here is that those who have put the effort and resources into having the faster car have earned a small advantage in a normal bracket race. However, this argument falls apart for class racing because the baddest, most expensive O/SA will still be the slower car against a lesser A/SA.

 

[mick]

i like the premise of True Start

 

[Ramjet]

Frank Veloz - The christmas tree was introduced in 1963 (using wikipedia as my source). Why was 5 tenths picked as the time between bulbs? What science or math was used to get to that number or was it arbitrarily chosen?

I got a full "PortaTree" some years ago for the kids we had running Jr. Dragsters. Although they are using LED lights now which changes everything he sent me a ton of information. One thing was why there was 4 tenths for "Heads Up" and five tenths for the full tree. It was decided by "THEY or THEM" that some motorskills tests showed that was the Median time for everyone showed that to be best for some one to react using hands - legs - eyes etc. The problem as you said there are some drawbacks here. Now days everyone younger than Me does games and has practice trees as well as the LED lights. Tie that to every thing available now it is easier for you to do the same thing the same way every time and adjust your vehicle to give you the best result. This tree has a way to hook up the throttle linkage or the trans brake to tell the cars reaction as well as the drivers (riders) reaction. I agree that things should be re analized because everything has evolved including the drivers. It is great but most people don't have a rural area to do launches and see which is which.

 

[twostep]

During my tenure at Englishtown we had what is now called "Quick 8" and experimented with instant green for the heads-up start. It was a disaster, more red-lights than I've ever seen, the racers hated it and we never tried it again.

I believe you, but I'm surprised. We've tried it here a time or two at no-prep races and red lights weren't a problem at all, although a few guessers got bounced. Nobody was thrilled to death but nobody was sore about it either. Sounds like Jerseyites have itchy feet.....

The only way I see to cut down on red lights with the current amber/green system is to speed up the tree. PSM got so bad it was nearly unwatchable and had to have been miserable for the racers until they went to a .375 tree. And they still have a disproportionate number of redlights due to the blazingly quick reaction of the bikes themselves.

 

[none]

If speeding up the tree came up for a vote I could go either way. The idea of the full tree as opposed to the Pro tree is that not all cars are created equal so the slow tree allows a slower reacting car a shot a a good light. Speeding up the tree would probably cut down on red lights to a point, but it could also promote guessing. If a good reaction time wasn't important then nobody would lean on the tree, and nobody would go red. I think that you need to be able to go red just to keep everyone honest.

Take the Nitro classes, it is generally accepted that shallow staged and leaving honest it is impossible to go red. The best in TF are .040 something and average is .070 something. Some of them want to slow the tree down to stop the guessing. It's not (in my mind) a huge problem, but it does happen.
Let's say our cars are close and my average light is .065 I know Langdon or Ashley is going to be .042 I'm in trouble. But I can take a shot at the tree, I get lucky with a .007 and win the race, it wasn't skill, I guessed and got lucky. But if the tree were adjusted then that could take away the incentive to guess.

The good news is that red lights are rare in those classes, the bad news is it allows for guessing to be rewarded.

The motorcycles are unique in that as had been pointed out, they are light, they react very quickly, and they have minimal rollout with the single tire and no stagger.

A few years back I got a chance to run a Stocker at the Vegas Regional, all three qualifying runs I was red. My car owner Tom Gaynor said: "Don't worry, I can fix the car." I was consistently .030 something red so he adjusted the front shocks, tire pressure and dropped the starting line RPM then he told me to do the same thing I had been doing and I would be good. Next run I was .015 green. I think someone who knows their car that well and has put in the work to be that good is doing it right.

Alan

 

[mick]

what happens if true start is being used in class racing and a heads up, same class race happens? if i'm trying to be fastest in my class and my opponent red lights, then i want
that race to be over rite now. i won, he lost. battle of the #2 and #1 qualified h/sa's (or whatever). i put the time and money into my car qualifying first, pushing my opponent to gamble
on the light and his gamble doesn't pay off. he goes red by -.002 ......... if true start is in place and he goes -.002 red, then i leave and go -.01 red, does the race go to the #2 qualifier who went
red by less?

 

[none]

TruStart isn't used in a head up race because the worst red light will automatically lose. TruStart or not in a heads up race -.002 loses and -.001 wins.

I misread what you said, if you are -.010 and he is -.002 you went red first and you would lose.

Alan

 

[camaro]

I like the comparison to The Price is Right. It sums up why red lights should remain. You can take the gamble of a really good light but the risk grows exponentially the harder you push. That brings more skill into it.
As far as entertainment value goes, why worry? No one is watching the sportsman racing. We don’t need to make spectator-based changes when they aren’t going to ever be interested in those classes.

your absolutely right, there's not enough of an audience for this 'red light' annoyance to be addressed, however i have to ask myself this : If what i read is true and that Street Outlaw TV show's ratings dwarf the NHRA broadcast, then perhaps their methods of racing shouldn't be dismissed so quickly. How is it a bunch of blue collar guys running tube chassis / modified type race cars, running 1/8th a mile, have a larger audience than 300MPH+ nitro propelled vehicles. Perhaps its the 'WWF' type stuff that goes on, off the track, that garners alot of the attention, but that aside, they have 'all out' 'balls to the wall' racing and if a guy leaves .002 seconds before the flashlight comes on, no one cares ! Not saying adopt the 'Street Outlaw' style of racing but my overall point is, focus more on the entertainment value and maybe you can grow a bit of an audience!

 

[MHayes]

....and if a guy leaves .002 seconds before the flashlight comes on, no one cares !

This statement shows that you have never watched an episode of Street Outlaws.

 

[camaro]

This statement shows that you have never watched an episode of Street Outlaws.

that's true, i'm not a reality show fan, but i might catch a few minutes of it while surfing the channels. I see a guy backpedaling a few steps and clicking on a flashlight. how can they tell within tenth of second let alone a thousandth who's leaving and when ? . . . . only asking !