a question about redlights (1 Viewer)

I gotta hand it to you people, every once in a while you can knock it out of the park with an awesome discussion! I am officially voting for Frank as president.....not sure of what but his ideas are great. I run Bandimere's Fast 16 in a blown altered with a clutch. No electronics, just old school drag racing. When I ran TA/FC you let the clutch out when you see yellow and you will rarely ever redlight. With a .5 tree you see yellow and leave...forget it. You will go red every time in this car. There has to be a mental time clock as to when the clutch is released after the last yellow flashes. Can you do it? yes, you can get in a zone some days and it seems like your brain is wired to the tree some how. Can you do it consistently week in and week out? Fat chance. A couple years ago I had a pig roast at my house after the season and had my car on stands with a switch to the clutch pedal tied to the practice tree. Some of the people I race against got in the car to try their hand without "boxes" and such. "That's the clutch, that handle is the brake, there is the gas. Now lets see what you can do." It was a hoot! I think the tru start is great. Took me a couple disappointing launches to figure out why I saw green at the tree but his win light came on. Cross Talk? Forget it. I see no reason for that at all. It is becoming a video game to see who can calculate best with equal - equal flashes of the top bulb.
Long story short, .4 tree would go a long way to equal the playing field for me even with having a clutch. Good discussion people.
 
TruStart isn't used in a head up race because the worst red light will automatically lose. TruStart or not in a heads up race -.002 loses and -.001 wins.

I misread what you said, if you are -.010 and he is -.002 you went red first and you would lose.

Alan
Explain something to me - if TruStart causes the worst-red to automatically lose, isn't that what's supposed to happen? And I don't understand what TruStart has to do with it. If we were still using button-pushing starters, regardless of it were a countdown tree, pro tree, .375, .400 or .500, whatever - worst-red would still automatically lose, no? Sorry; I'm a bit unfamiliar with how some of this works; I never raced with TruStart.
 
In a heads up race the worst red light always loses. Even if both leave early, the one who goes first will be the worst red light.

TruStart is for handicap racing. In a handicap race if the car that leaves first goes RED then the race is over and the other car (that hasn't moved yet) is the winner. Even if the second car leaves early he/she will get a green light and win. The first car could be -001 and the second could be -200 but the first car would lose and the second would win. That's the way it is now without TruStart

With TruStart if the car that leaves first goes -005 and the car leaves second goes -010 Then the second car would lose.

Alan
 
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For reference, every class in Australia - from Junior Dragsters and Super Street to Top Fuel - have a four tenths tree. Obviously still a full tree for sportsman and heads-up for pros.
That is very interesting Luke, I did not know that. How long has this been in play? Is there a dragracecentral.com type website where I could look at round by round results from different events? (I tried the link in your signature by the way, not the round by round info I'm looking for, but definitely worth a further look). I would love to see the reaction times and 60' foot times of the different classes and compare them to the racers/cars here (assuming the incrementals have been "Americanized"). I know there is a similar class to Comp Eliminator there as I've seen some of the Aussie guys on Insidecompracing.com bouncing off ideas with the Comp racers here in the states.

I got a full "PortaTree" some years ago for the kids we had running Jr. Dragsters. Although they are using LED lights now which changes everything he sent me a ton of information. One thing was why there was 4 tenths for "Heads Up" and five tenths for the full tree. It was decided by "THEY or THEM" that some motorskills tests showed that was the Median time for everyone showed that to be best for some one to react using hands - legs - eyes etc. The problem as you said there are some drawbacks here. Now days everyone younger than Me does games and has practice trees as well as the LED lights. Tie that to every thing available now it is easier for you to do the same thing the same way every time and adjust your vehicle to give you the best result. This tree has a way to hook up the throttle linkage or the trans brake to tell the cars reaction as well as the drivers (riders) reaction. I agree that things should be re analized because everything has evolved including the drivers. It is great but most people don't have a rural area to do launches and see which is which.
I wonder who THEY and THEM are, lol? And what kind of motor skills tests were used? Hmm. And you're right Roger, not only the cars and the technology associated with them, the drivers have continued to evolve as well.

A few years back I got a chance to run a Stocker at the Vegas Regional, all three qualifying runs I was red. My car owner Tom Gaynor said: "Don't worry, I can fix the car." I was consistently .030 something red so he adjusted the front shocks, tire pressure and dropped the starting line RPM then he told me to do the same thing I had been doing and I would be good. Next run I was .015 green. I think someone who knows their car that well and has put in the work to be that good is doing it right.
Now hop out of Tom Gaynor's car and jump into Tom Snyder's Pappy's Pride. A car in the vicinity of having Pro Stock level horsepower, yet 300 or so pounds lighter than a Pro Stocker and see what your lights will be if you react the instant the bottom bulb comes on just like you did in the stocker. If you're going .030 red in a mid 10 second stocker before fine tuning, what are you going to cut in a mid 6 second altered that also has smaller front wheels/tires than the full body stocker? (Props to Gaynor though for being able to twist a few knobs and dial it in. I definitely have respect for that ability, though it does help to have your baseline + or - a few hundredths from green.)

Explain something to me - if TruStart causes the worst-red to automatically lose, isn't that what's supposed to happen?
Right Carl? When you think about it, and after you've raced with TruStart for a while, you wonder why it was ever the other way to begin with. At the finish line, the driver who makes the bigger mistake by breaking out the worst, loses. It does not matter who breaks out first in a double breakout situation, it only matters who does it worst. But for some reason, before the advent of TruStart (and the way the races are currently run today at all NHRA national/divisional events), the driver who makes the bigger mistake on the starting line doesn't matter, it only matters who makes the mistake first. So to recap. Finish line = bigger mistake loses, first driver to make the mistake irrelevant. Starting line = bigger mistake irrelevant, first driver to make the mistake loses. It just seems to me, these two parts of bracket racing should be in alignment, which I believe TruStart accomplishes.

I gotta hand it to you people, every once in a while you can knock it out of the park with an awesome discussion! I am officially voting for Frank as president.....not sure of what but his ideas are great.
🤣😂 Thanks Joe, if I get elected to whatever position is being voted on, I'll do my best.

When I ran TA/FC you let the clutch out when you see yellow and you will rarely ever redlight. With a .5 tree you see yellow and leave...forget it. You will go red every time in this car. There has to be a mental time clock as to when the clutch is released after the last yellow flashes. Can you do it? yes, you can get in a zone some days and it seems like your brain is wired to the tree some how. Can you do it consistently week in and week out? Fat chance.
Thanks for sharing this. Hearing this from someone who has a super fast car, without a delay box, really illustrates how difficult it is to try and make the 5 tenths tree work. By the way, how many of your buddies brought their delay box with them, for the following year's pig roast? ;)
 
Food for thought courtesy of this great website (wish there was a name somewhere on the website so I could give the person who is updating it the proper credit) https://www.printcentralandsigns.com/NHRA/records.html

1963 - 5 tenths tree put in play. A timing sequence of yellow lights to green based on the automobile performance and technology of 1963, is still in use today, 58 years later. Just think about that for a moment.
1971 - NHRA decides the Professional classes will utilize a 4 tenths tree. Here are the E.T. records for the professional classes at the end of the 1970 season that I assume helped push NHRA towards a 4 tenths tree:
TF - Tom Raley 6.53
FC - Leroy Goldstein 6.83
PS - The Grump 9.98 (though by the end of 71, Ronnie Sox had lowered it to 9.52)

Fast forward to today, and how many cars can run in the 6.53 to 9.98 range (or quicker) yet are still using a 5 tenths tree?

If Joe Percoco is able to get me elected President of the NHRA, or at least on the Competition Committee, I would recommend moving TD/TS and Comp to a .400 or .425 FULL tree. And for Stock, Super Stock, and Super Street, moving to a tree in the neighborhood of .475. (Full tree for Stock/SS and still a single flash pro tree for Super Street) Oh, and of course, I would recommend TruStart. :)
 
Why not let the racers in each class vote instead of redesigning the sport for some disgruntled spectator.
 
That is very interesting Luke, I did not know that. How long has this been in play? Is there a dragracecentral.com type website where I could look at round by round results from different events? (I tried the link in your signature by the way, not the round by round info I'm looking for, but definitely worth a further look). I would love to see the reaction times and 60' foot times of the different classes and compare them to the racers/cars here (assuming the incrementals have been "Americanized"). I know there is a similar class to Comp Eliminator there as I've seen some of the Aussie guys on Insidecompracing.com bouncing off ideas with the Comp racers here in the states.
Try this: https://www.andra.com.au/series/results/
I'd be interested if you see a difference in reaction times too. For racers in Australia, a four tenths full tree is simply the way it has always been - they don't know any different.
 
I gotta hand it to you people, every once in a while you can knock it out of the park with an awesome discussion! I am officially voting for Frank as president.....not sure of what but his ideas are great. I run Bandimere's Fast 16 in a blown altered with a clutch. No electronics, just old school drag racing. When I ran TA/FC you let the clutch out when you see yellow and you will rarely ever redlight. With a .5 tree you see yellow and leave...forget it. You will go red every time in this car. There has to be a mental time clock as to when the clutch is released after the last yellow flashes. Can you do it? yes, you can get in a zone some days and it seems like your brain is wired to the tree some how. Can you do it consistently week in and week out? Fat chance. A couple years ago I had a pig roast at my house after the season and had my car on stands with a switch to the clutch pedal tied to the practice tree. Some of the people I race against got in the car to try their hand without "boxes" and such. "That's the clutch, that handle is the brake, there is the gas. Now lets see what you can do." It was a hoot! I think the tru start is great. Took me a couple disappointing launches to figure out why I saw green at the tree but his win light came on. Cross Talk? Forget it. I see no reason for that at all. It is becoming a video game to see who can calculate best with equal - equal flashes of the top bulb.
Long story short, .4 tree would go a long way to equal the playing field for me even with having a clutch. Good discussion people.
Hey Joe I love altereds, any pics of your car you can post?
 
Why not let the racers in each class vote instead of redesigning the sport for some disgruntled spectator.
. . . . . and in my opinion, that philosophy, right there, is what ultimately contributes to Low TV Ratings , bad attendance and decreasing sponsorship involvement.
 
Why not let the racers in each class vote instead of redesigning the sport for some disgruntled spectator.
Drag racing CONSTANTLY does this, to its detriment. Racers want to protect the status quo more often than not, even as external circumstances change - just look at how far Pro Stock has ended up away from anything like a factory-based class.
 
The first car could be -001 and the second could be -200 but the first car would lose and the second would win. That's the way it is now without TruStart

With TruStart if the car that leaves first goes -005 and the car leaves second goes -010 Then the second car would lose.

Alan

Thanks, Alan - makes sense - but the no-TruStart scenario doesn't seem fair at all. To me, that's like two cars crossing the centerline, the faster one over the stripe by 2 inches and the slower one by crossing over into the other lane and smacking the wall - and then awarding the win to that car since it left first in a handicap race. I realize that's not how it works; just an example. "First is worst" when it comes to handicap-racing red lights, I'm aware, but I never agreed with it. In your example the -.200 person should rightfully lose, period.

Meaning the TruStart system appears to be the fairest way when it comes to ALL racing. Just my opinion.....and again, thanks for the clarification.
 
Drag racing CONSTANTLY does this, to its detriment. Racers want to protect the status quo more often than not, even as external circumstances change - just look at how far Pro Stock has ended up away from anything like a factory-based class.
Just to be clear, the original post was about Stock/Super Stock red lights. Don't see how this equates to Pro Stock becoming card
Drag racing CONSTANTLY does this, to its detriment. Racers want to protect the status quo more often than not, even as external circumstances change - just look at how far Pro Stock has ended up away from anything like a factory-based class.
So you don't think those who spend all the time, money and effort to do an activity should have input on how that activity is conducted? WOW!
 
. . . . . and in my opinion, that philosophy, right there, is what ultimately contributes to Low TV Ratings , bad attendance and decreasing sponsorship involvement.
I believe fundamental societal changes have more to do with this then Stock/Super Stock red lights.
 
Just to be clear, the original post was about Stock/Super Stock red lights. Don't see how this equates to Pro Stock becoming card

So you don't think those who spend all the time, money and effort to do an activity should have input on how that activity is conducted? WOW!
Forum threads have a way of moving on to lots of different topics, and they are all interesting to discuss!
Of course they should have a say. But so much weight is often given to racers in a given class, who don't look at change as a positive. For example, imagine I said, "Hey racers, I have this Proposal X. It will double your field sizes, but you're going to have to spend $X amount of money." Chances are the racers already in the class aren't going to go for it, even if it is for the overall betterment of the class. They are interested in protecting their investment, not necessarily improving the product.
 
just turned on southwest showdown on bangshift / youtube and everything discussed in this thread is on display - Cross Talk , Tru Start, and plenty of Red Lights :p
 
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