WJ Calls For NTSB-Type Investigations For On-Track Incidents (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Triple Nickel II
- Start date
90-percent
Nitro Member
WJ, as a really smart guy, is suggesting something really worthwhile and constructive here.
You go, Warren! I support any additional efforts that will keep my heros safe! I really really don't want to love a sport that can suddenly take away people as wonderful and full of life as Eric.
As a matter of fact, these incidents make me wonder if I'm really doing the right thing being a drag racing fan in the first place!
-85% Jimmy
You go, Warren! I support any additional efforts that will keep my heros safe! I really really don't want to love a sport that can suddenly take away people as wonderful and full of life as Eric.
As a matter of fact, these incidents make me wonder if I'm really doing the right thing being a drag racing fan in the first place!
-85% Jimmy
Excellent idea. The NTSB's recommendations have saved many lives.
I would think the main problem here is data collection and consist of the investigation team.
The NTSB is assisted by the manufacturers (engine, airframe, avionics, etc), FAA, crew representatives, etc. Who will do this job for racing? There are also many data products to look at. CVR, FDR, radar, communications tapes. Not as much available on a racecar, especially if the pass wasn't filmed, and then it would have to be from various angles. Obviously ESPN has that covered during a national event, but not the case at a test session.
Might be time to move forward on the idea though.
I would think the main problem here is data collection and consist of the investigation team.
The NTSB is assisted by the manufacturers (engine, airframe, avionics, etc), FAA, crew representatives, etc. Who will do this job for racing? There are also many data products to look at. CVR, FDR, radar, communications tapes. Not as much available on a racecar, especially if the pass wasn't filmed, and then it would have to be from various angles. Obviously ESPN has that covered during a national event, but not the case at a test session.
Might be time to move forward on the idea though.
Speedy_Sticks
Nitro Member
The cost may be an issue, but as long as the cost (if added) to a raceday ticket is stated on the ticket, to what precentage of the ticket price would go to the body.
Maybe get together with the NASCAR folks to help finance the idea? (litghts the blue touch paper and stands well back!)
Cheers
James
Maybe get together with the NASCAR folks to help finance the idea? (litghts the blue touch paper and stands well back!)
Cheers
James
Under_Pressure
Nitro Member
Racing is dangerous by definition. That danger involves people getting injured or killed sometimes. It's the way it is- most racers would say that if they're not running on the brink of catastrophe, they're not pushing hard enough. Every racer knows the risks and accepts them. The fans need to as well.
Kelly Andersen
Nitro Member
That is a really stupid statement!!! Flying is dangerous also, but they do inquirie's when theres a crash, What are we supposed to do say pi** on it S*** happens, oh well??? I sure as hell hope your kidding. I dont wanna see anymore friends killed when somthing could have been learned from an investigation. If it would keep from getting others killed I'd gladly make a donation to do a reconstruct. You've obviously never lost someone you love to a racing accident.
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Speedy_Sticks
Nitro Member
(comes back to see if the touch paper is stil lit.)
Wes
Nitro Member
I agree with WJ on a lot of issues and this one is no different. Eric's death is our equivalent of Dale Earnhart's over in circle track land. The investigation surrounding his wreck at Daytona was extremely thourough and the results were made public. Say what you will about NASCAR but they handled it correctly. The ball is in NHRA's court to follow suit and hande this correctly...and make the right changes in the near future.
hotrod
Nitro Member
I think that WJ's onto something. When something fails and the result is catastrophic, it's important for an "outside", trained group of people to investigate to make sure that the cause is determined and the necessary correction is made. What happened to Eric may not be limited to just his car and/or equipment. What if a team made the wrong determination and nothing was done to correct the actual problem. That problem affects all of the cars in that class and possibly in other classes as well.
I was shocked to read that no other driver had lost his life in a fuel funny car in the last 38 years in NHRA competition. Wouldn't it be great if no one was ever killed again? I say yell loudly WJ. Someone has to listen.
I was shocked to read that no other driver had lost his life in a fuel funny car in the last 38 years in NHRA competition. Wouldn't it be great if no one was ever killed again? I say yell loudly WJ. Someone has to listen.
Ken
Nitro Member
I strongly agree with Warren Johnson. An independent review with a public disclosure of the findings is needed to maintain the credibility of our sport. As far as the cost, I think it is the responsibility of the sanctioning bodies, track owners, and Sponsors to foot the bill. It is THEIR responsibility to assure the safety of the competitors that put it on the line for their economic benefit.
Triple Nickel II
Nitro Member
It also takes "inside" people to provide insight.
The NTSB wouldn't be able to conduct the most in-depth investigation possible without the assistance of the aircraft manufacturer, etc.
Isn't that a bit like saying "let the government pay for it"?
Just like taxpayers fund the goverment, we fund the sanctioning bodies, track owners, and sponsors.
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DCM
Nitro Member
Their presentation of the 'data' from that investigation was not completely forthcoming. For instance, they sort of glossed over the fact that every belt used in the #3 car was installed wrong.
One potential problem with an NTSB style investigation is that teams would be required to turn over data which may be sensitive. Use the Bruce Allen/Koretzky crash as an example. The dynamics and movements of the cars could be recreated from video. But then, to go a step further and determine cause, you would need the Racepak data from both cars....possibly access to the clutch and suspension setups....and the drag and downforce #'s to look into why the car got loose in the first place. And then at the end of the investigation, all of this information is made public.
And don't forget...NTSB investigations usually assign blame and fault....that is another can of worms some may not want to open.
NTSB is funded by taxes.....That is a crazy statement by Warren....NTSB is involved in public transportation. A 330 mph recreational vehicle is not for the general public.
Medlens accident was sad and unfortunate and I hope nothing like that takes place again but to say the NHRA, track operators, sponsors, etc need to get involved is wrong, in my opinion.
When I licensed in a TA/FC one of the first things I realized is that no one was going to baby-sit our team in regards to safety. On the starting line they (NHRA) never checked to make sure I was belted in tight, fire bottles were full, throttle cable was adjusted right, butterfly shaft arms/lock-nuts were tightened, etc.....That was our responsibility....
I even discussed w/ my better half what to do w/ me in case of a negative situation....I am a proactive person that knows sometimes bad stuff happens....
Medlens accident was sad and unfortunate and I hope nothing like that takes place again but to say the NHRA, track operators, sponsors, etc need to get involved is wrong, in my opinion.
When I licensed in a TA/FC one of the first things I realized is that no one was going to baby-sit our team in regards to safety. On the starting line they (NHRA) never checked to make sure I was belted in tight, fire bottles were full, throttle cable was adjusted right, butterfly shaft arms/lock-nuts were tightened, etc.....That was our responsibility....
I even discussed w/ my better half what to do w/ me in case of a negative situation....I am a proactive person that knows sometimes bad stuff happens....
"Dr. Dirt"
Nitro Member
There is a great deal of merit to what WJ is suggesting here. Case-in-point, we now have a Titanium shield on the back of every T/F dragster chassis to preclude broken wing arms from entering the driver's cockpit between the bars and spearing the helmet unnecessarily. This was a direct result of Darrell Russell's incident (which could have been avoided with such a shield.) I further believe we haven't seen the last safe piece of equipment to be mandated for race car drivers. We'll learn about them from such an investigation as WJ suggests but if we all just sit back and converse about the inherent dangers of our sport, we're doomed to find them with unacceptable results.
Excellent idea WJ! You can never have too much information but too little information can be detrimental.
Excellent idea WJ! You can never have too much information but too little information can be detrimental.
willy
Nitro Member
He didn't mention THE NTSB..he mentioned NTSB-LIKE..you know like..looking over what happened and maybe prevent it from happening in the future. And look what Doc says..pure and simple. There may be something we can improve on. Simple, eh?
RickyD
Nitro Member
I would like to think JFR is doing everything in their power to investigate this tragedy to figure out exactly what happened. What if YOUR daughter were scheduled to race and you didn't know if it could happen again or not. As crude as it sounds this tragedy probably will get the best investigation possible because of the team it happened to. A lesser team may have just folded and gone away without putting forth all possible resources to find a cause. Rest assured if the sport CAN be made safer by learning from this, JFR will make it so.
I think WJ is right on the target with this idea. People seem to forget what the NHRA was created for, to provide a safe place for people to race. Period. If the competitors in this sanctioning body decide that a “NTSB like” investigation team is necessary to promote safer conditions in which to compete, then it falls directly upon the NHRA to provide this. The NHRA has no problem raising entry fee’s to cover a myriad of other operating costs, so if they need to tack another $10 on to entry fee’s in order to fund this idea, so be it.
Jeremy Jude
SG 596
SC 5961
Jeremy Jude
SG 596
SC 5961
Old Sg
Nitro Member
WJ is certainly looking in the right direction with an NTSB-like investigation. I would believe there would be a lot of info available from other organizations which have already tested and analyzed data from these types of accidents thru mock-up tests or actual incidents. The auto manufacturers, NTSB, FAA, NASA, and the Military test continually test and investigate on impact and G-Force tolerance and survivability on the human body.
What caused Eric's accident I am sure will be found. What is needed for the driver to survive an impact like Eric had is a different issue. With the type of closed head injury that it was (DAI) this will be much harder to evaluate. As the velocity and time (i.e. G-Force) are the factors which would determine survivability.
Here is some a little info on deceleration G-Force and Diffuse Axonal Injury(DAI).
G-Force
Strongest g-forces survived by humans
Voluntarily: Colonel John Stapp in 1954 sustained 46.2 g in a rocket sled, while conducting research on the effects of human deceleration. See Martin Voshell (2004), 'High Acceleration and the Human Body'.
Involuntarily: Formula One racing car driver David Purley survived an estimated 178 g in 1977 when he decelerated from 173 km•h-1 (108 mph) to 0 in a distance of 66 cm (26 inches) after his throttle got stuck wide open and he hit a wall.[5]
Diffuse Axonal Injury (DAI)
Unlike brain trauma that occurs due to direct impact and deformation of the brain, DAI is the result of traumatic shearing forces that occur when the head is rapidly accelerated or decelerated, as may occur in auto accidents, falls, and assaults (reviewed in Wolf et al., 2001). It usually results from twisting or rotational forces (angular momentum), rather than forward and back impacts linear momentum (Sanders and McKenna, 2001; Wasserman, 2004; Shepherd, 2004). Car accidents are the most frequent causes of DAI, with sports accidents and child abuse also common causes (Smith and Greenwald, 2003).
The major cause of damage in DAI is the tearing of axons, the neural processes that allow one neuron to communicate with another. Tracts of axons, which appear white due to myelination, are referred to as white matter. Acceleration causes shearing injury, which refers to damage inflicted as tissue slides over other tissue. When the brain is accelerated, parts of differing densities and distances from the axis of rotation slide over one another, stretching axons that traverse junctions between areas of different density, especially gray-white matter junctions (Wasserman, 2004). Two thirds of DAI lesions occur in areas where grey and white matter meet (Wasserman, 2004).
God Bless Eric and prayers with Eric’s family, JFR, and friends
What caused Eric's accident I am sure will be found. What is needed for the driver to survive an impact like Eric had is a different issue. With the type of closed head injury that it was (DAI) this will be much harder to evaluate. As the velocity and time (i.e. G-Force) are the factors which would determine survivability.
Here is some a little info on deceleration G-Force and Diffuse Axonal Injury(DAI).
G-Force
Strongest g-forces survived by humans
Voluntarily: Colonel John Stapp in 1954 sustained 46.2 g in a rocket sled, while conducting research on the effects of human deceleration. See Martin Voshell (2004), 'High Acceleration and the Human Body'.
Involuntarily: Formula One racing car driver David Purley survived an estimated 178 g in 1977 when he decelerated from 173 km•h-1 (108 mph) to 0 in a distance of 66 cm (26 inches) after his throttle got stuck wide open and he hit a wall.[5]
Diffuse Axonal Injury (DAI)
Unlike brain trauma that occurs due to direct impact and deformation of the brain, DAI is the result of traumatic shearing forces that occur when the head is rapidly accelerated or decelerated, as may occur in auto accidents, falls, and assaults (reviewed in Wolf et al., 2001). It usually results from twisting or rotational forces (angular momentum), rather than forward and back impacts linear momentum (Sanders and McKenna, 2001; Wasserman, 2004; Shepherd, 2004). Car accidents are the most frequent causes of DAI, with sports accidents and child abuse also common causes (Smith and Greenwald, 2003).
The major cause of damage in DAI is the tearing of axons, the neural processes that allow one neuron to communicate with another. Tracts of axons, which appear white due to myelination, are referred to as white matter. Acceleration causes shearing injury, which refers to damage inflicted as tissue slides over other tissue. When the brain is accelerated, parts of differing densities and distances from the axis of rotation slide over one another, stretching axons that traverse junctions between areas of different density, especially gray-white matter junctions (Wasserman, 2004). Two thirds of DAI lesions occur in areas where grey and white matter meet (Wasserman, 2004).
God Bless Eric and prayers with Eric’s family, JFR, and friends
r2
Nitro Member
I have a question that maybe nobody can answer here, but I am going to ask it anyhow...
Did or Did not NHRA confiscate Darrell's car after his tragic accident, or was it the sheriff's office in St.Louis?? and never give a report of their findings?? Yes they made some changes with the shroud and wing angle... However with that question being asked, and wanting an answer...
Did NHRA take Eric's car as well?? or is it because of it being a testing day or because it happened to JFR that the car is still in their possession... Which I believe is the best place for it to be... However an independent panel is absolutely needed... Just asking a question... Is this different, and if so why is it different??
Did or Did not NHRA confiscate Darrell's car after his tragic accident, or was it the sheriff's office in St.Louis?? and never give a report of their findings?? Yes they made some changes with the shroud and wing angle... However with that question being asked, and wanting an answer...
Did NHRA take Eric's car as well?? or is it because of it being a testing day or because it happened to JFR that the car is still in their possession... Which I believe is the best place for it to be... However an independent panel is absolutely needed... Just asking a question... Is this different, and if so why is it different??
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B
Buzzz Miller
I am in complete agreement. Knowing what caused the accident very well may prevent the next one. A very good friend of mine, and many time world champ died in a boat crash. Knowing what went wrong has created rules that do not let this happen again. I have created parts that even up the standard for this type of thing for my boats. Since I drive funny-cars, I would like to know how to make myself and my brother safer.
It has to be independent of the NHRA because we will never see the results if they are involved. (Still waiting on the 30 days for the DR report promised on national television.)
If we can keep the NHRA, the governments and any short acronyms out of it, we can keep it affordable.
Good idea all the way around.
It has to be independent of the NHRA because we will never see the results if they are involved. (Still waiting on the 30 days for the DR report promised on national television.)
If we can keep the NHRA, the governments and any short acronyms out of it, we can keep it affordable.
Good idea all the way around.
