Will Top Dragster and Sportsman ever run at Natl. events? (1 Viewer)

[ginger]

I love the classes, I just don't know if it would work at the National Event level. I think downtime will increase, as a lot of these cars will be pushing to their performance limits (oildowns, etc) which is already becoming a problem at the Sportsman Level. I think there are other safety concerns as well as these cars will now be going 200+ MPH. While almost all of these cars are capable, that really isn't what a lot (talking more about chassis here) of these cars were originally built for. The class is still a break-out class, so I think there are additional concerns with jamming on the brakes at 200 MPH+ as well.

As far as Tech goes, I've been racing SG/SC for 5 years now, and never once has anyone even looked at my throttle stop. Additionally, the class is still not electronics free, as you are allowed to use a delay box.

I like the classes, and I hope they succeed, but I really feel like it will just turn into Comp Eliminator. While Comp is my favorite NHRA class, as Bob Fry says, "Running Comp is God's way of telling you that you have too much money." If you have to qualify, it will turn into a wallet competition guaranteed. As far as the costs of Sportsman engines, $10k would probably be the cheapest motor in the field. Most are more in the $20-$35k range. Comp motors are anywhere from $50-100k for a competitive piece, and you can bet your wheaties that TD/TS motor would approach that in a couple years if they become National Event Classes.

I really would like to race the TS class because I love running my car with no stop, I just see it to be great short term, but a monster long term.

My .02

 

[StockersRock]

I would love to see them replace SC and SG at national events. TD and TS are kick ass classes.

Hell yeah, and I would be glad to never see a Corvette roadster ever again!

 

[The Counterfeiter]

"As far as the costs of Sportsman engines, $10k would probably be the cheapest motor in the field. Most are more in the $20-$35k range. Comp motors are anywhere from $50-100k for a competitive piece, and you can bet your wheaties that TD/TS motor would approach that in a couple years if they become National Event Classes."

Good point, but some TD/TS competitors are already there! Sonny Leonard 600+ Mountain Motors, BAE TAD engines, LencoGlides, Bruno's and more.
And . . . you are exactly correct about qualifying escalating costs. You are also correct that there are cars out there that should not be competing in these classes. The "Need For Speed" at this level is very expensive - and possibly very dangerous.
I don't know what the answer here is, but there are certainly some potential problems - Jim

 

[Joker]

Like I said, I hope they do swap out SC/SG with TD/TS but with no qualifying field. A perfect example would be the Texas Pro Stock Association. For those of you who dont know about it, its a group of racers here in the Houston area mainly that run with a set of rules with engine requirements and weight requirements with any car you want. Well used to it was a couple vettes, firebirds, camaro's, etc. I'm not sure I think they run for $1200,$1500 a race and have a race or 2 a month all over South Texas for the most part. Anyways, what I am getting at is now the group is totally different.

The guy who has won the past several championships in the deal isint even close anymore this year. His 4.80's are mid pack. The front runners are running high 4.60s and 4.70's consistently. Why? B/C big money has come in and now the class consist of the past pro stockers of: Mike Edwards, Mark Pawuk, V Gaines, Steve Schmidt, and a couple older ones. Plus there are a few brand new pro stock cars built just for the people who run them in TPSA but there pro stock cars from all the name guys. I dont know their rules exactly for those of you wondering but I believe you can have a 565 convential headed motor and weigh 2400 lbs or have 500 cu in and weight 2350 or something like that.

Basically it used to be high mait. bracket cars and now its 565 Reher Morrison $20k motors or Jeff Naiser engine or Steve Schmidt Racing Engines in $80k rolling ex pro stock cars. All to run for $1000 to $1500 I believe. There fun to watch though. Its all 1/8th mile. But I believe if you set a qualifying field in TD/TS you would have the same problem b/c you would have to run fast just to make the field. If they are going to agree to swap classes but with a qualified field I would rather them just leave SC/SG. Sorry for the long winded post.

 

[DG]

I believe that there can be a middle of the road solution.

Today, at least one of the sportsman classes are dropped at each National Event. You could either add TD and TS with enough grade points to the rotation or drop two classes to allow more races per year per class.

Everyone gets a chance to race at a National Event that way.

This won't please everyone, but these popular classes will be able to participate at some level...

Of course that just my idea...I could be wrong!

 

[Professor Dave]

I'm inclined to agree they are more entertaining spectating-wise. But I'm sure a TON of S/C-S/G drivers would put up a major fuss!

It's not easy for the typical fan to appreciate the super class cars, but they are (1) a revenue source for NHRA, (2), a lot of manufacturers who advertise at National Events and in National Dragster sell a lot of stuff to people who race in the super classes, and (3), some pros got their start in those classes. So I doubt you'll see them dropped from the NHRA national event schedule anytime soon.

 

[Professor Dave]

I like the classes, and I hope they succeed, but I really feel like it will just turn into Comp Eliminator. While Comp is my favorite NHRA class, as Bob Fry says, "Running Comp is God's way of telling you that you have too much money." ...Comp motors are anywhere from $50-100k for a competitive piece

Not if you only run four cylinders!

 

[stanman]

Most dragsters who run in super comp can easily run 7.70's. Most SC and even SG cars have 565's or bigger in them.

Shoot, my little 409" dragster runs in the 7.50's... and it hasn't had a throttle stop on it in a couple years.

 

[Professor Dave]

Shoot, my little 409" dragster runs in the 7.50's... and it hasn't had a throttle stop on it in a couple years.

And is its theme song a Beach Boys tune? 'Cuz that dragster sure sounds fine!

 

[stanman]

I'll bet most of these SuperX cars have over $10,000 in they're motors now. How will allowing a quick 64-128 make it more expensive? I remember 10 years ago you rarely saw Super cars go over 170 MPH, now that's been bumped to 200 MPH! I think JUstin's right, most of those S/C guys can go 7.90's or quicker now.

Joe,

Your numbers aren't even close. The 565" motor in the Cavalier I built for Art Hoover was over $26,000 by itself. And even at 1145 horspower it's only a 7.20-7.30 player in most 4-link dragsters that are out there.

 

[Joker]

Joe,

Your numbers aren't even close. The 565" motor in the Cavalier I built for Art Hoover was over $26,000 by itself. And even at 1145 horspower it's only a 7.20-7.30 player in most 4-link dragsters that are out there.

Greg is right. The 565 we have in our dragster right now which runs 7.30's 185 mph cost over $20k if you go buy it new. It produces 1130,1140 hp somewhere in that range I dont remember. I am sure we could tune her up alitte and maybe run some high 7.1's or low 7.20's if needed be. Or we could decide to blow stuff up and add NOS like some.

 

[Toejam]

So we all agree the Super classes are very capable of running a Top Dragster/Sportsman class? David Gerard made a great point, since Super Gas or Comp don't run every Natl. why not allow a TD/TS class to fill with a 64 qual. field?

 

[scotty]

I'd LOVE to see TD and TS get into the national events even if it was only 4-6 races a year. I think fans anywhere would enjoy them more, primarily because of the times and speeds. Although it might take a little while for fans to "realize" they are out there. A good example is Vinny Deceglie's car, fans might not know Comp but many do enjoy watching that car when it comes to the line. However, hardcore super class racers would definitely need to change their mindset because it is different.

The car I work on (10.5" car) uses A LOT of n2o but we have helped others "tinker" with it. I think a lot of racers would be surprised how reliable and easy it would be to add 150-200 hp to your engines right now with a solid tuneup. A typical alum. rod, JE piston, 540-632 can eat a 150 hp shot and not even know it. Change the pistons, rings, camshaft, and converter and say hello to 350-400 hp hits all season. The maintenance would be about what the faster SuperX cars do now. Another trick is to shut the nitrous off after about 5 seconds. A LOT more consistency/reliability and still VERY quick and fun. If you're not trying to set the record in Pro Mod, the nitrous technology today (fuel delivery, nozzles, plates) has made it almost as safe as changing manifolds.

 

["Dr. Dirt"]

I misunderstood the intent of this post. I thought it was about the merits of TD & TS to the fans in comparison to Super Class racing. As long as I've attended national events I've understood the value of the super-class racing in revenue, training grounds, affordable racing (as opposed to pro-class racing) completing fields, etc.

My point was that cheeks in the stands diminish rapidly the moment the throttle-stops come on. Unless you are intimately involved, it's less entertainment for the average spectator, it's nearly impossible to explain to a casual observer who asks what's going on, and the real action all happens at the tree and traps. Conversely, the TD & TS cars are going to give the fans that full pull feel with greater spectator involvement as a result. From the informed strategically matching up competitors to the drunks in the stands betting bucks on every race, I believe it will provide more entertainment.

Oh, and yes, we have run Super Comp with our car and as racers it was a blast! (especially since Buzzz qualified with a perfect 8.90 et & a .400 light using no electronics in our funny car!)

 

[stanman]

I think T/D and T/S would be more popular with the fans if they were to replace the Super categories at National events. But NHRA would have make a some changes to the format of the classes if they do not want to alienate lower budget racers. Don't slow them down or anything like that. But make the fields bigger so that you don't lose your lower budget racers.

Let's face it, T/D and T/S would become "fat wallet" categories very quickly if the Super categories were eliminated and changes were not made that allowed budget minded racers an opportunity to still race. Otherwise you'd see the quick death of a large contingent of sportsman racing.

You still need to maintain some type of "entry level" categories. The average Super category racers are not going to enter a race if there is any possibility that they will not qualify and not be able to race in eliminations. And without the opportunity to race at National Events, the divisional race entries for Super categories would drop quicker than a cannonball from a 747 at 36,000 feet.

But then again...

Does NHRA really want fans sitting in the stand watching a sportsman category when they could be in the pits spending money!?

 

[ginger]

But then again...

Does NHRA really want fans sitting in the stand watching a sportsman category when they could be in the pits spending money!?

BINGO. . . Double bonus for the NHRA. Tons of revenue in entries and crew tickets, plus it get the fans OUT OF THE STANDS to go spend money.

Besides, getting the fans into the pits is 1/2 the NHRA experience, and is a very big factor in repeat customers. They don't get that experience with any other form of motorsports. . . I gues that makes it a triple bonus!

 

[Toejam]

By Saying the NHRA wants classes that chase people in the pits doesn't make those guys/gals in the Super classes feel very good....

 

[Wes]

Following the tone of this thread, most of the apprehension and doubt is coming from racers and fans that are new to T/D and T/S. Or, should I say that T/D and T/S are new to them? Here's a little history lesson.

Top Sportsman has been around for a LONG time in IHRA-land. The class spawned Pro Modified. Yes, this is the same Top Sportsman. Started out as a 32-car field that included a Quick 8 shootout that became Pro Mod after a few years of exciting events...and cars in the 6's at over 200. Top Dragster came a long in late 80's early 90's after IHRA saw the demand for a fast dragster bracket class. Top Dragster also had a Quick 8 shootout that became Super Eliminator, then Pro Outlaw, then it was dropped from the IHRA schedule but still competes as an independent series (Pro Top Outlaw).

IHRA dropped both Quick 8 shootouts from T/D and T/S in 2002 when the costs and carnage were getting out of control...tons of oil-downs and too many bye-runs in first round of the regular classes. At the same time the field was expanded from 32 to 48 cars. After the shootouts were eliminated, costs got back under control and the racing got A LOT better. There was once a provision in the class rules that if there were more than 72 cars attempting to make the 48 car field, the event would be expanded to include 64 cars. There were a few races that had to expand but in recent years 48 has been a good solid number.

These classes have existed in relative harmony on the IHRA series for over two decades now. As I posted before, there are a few races on the national event schedule that have very stout fields with 48-car bumps in the 6.80 range for dragsters and 7.20's for doorslammers. But, for the most part, a decent 7.30 car in either class can get in the field at most national events. 6.30 or quicker cars in these classes are the exception rather than the norm.

Should NHRA adopt these classes at the national level in the coming years, I do not believe we'll see costs go through the roof as opposed to the throttle stop classes. Nor do I think we'll see much difference between a T/D-T/S field at a divisional versus national event. They will vary regionally, as do IHRA's, but don't expect a bunch of 5-second cars showing up and ruining the party for the rest of us.

I'd like to see NHRA keep with the 48-car field plan for most of the national events. For Norwalk and Indy (Division 3) the field could be expanded to 64 to accomodate larger racer interest and participation.

I would urge those of you new to the classes to pay close attention to the IHRA national and division events. There's the real story and a harbinger of things to come in NHRA.

 

[Joker]

By Saying the NHRA wants classes that chase people in the pits doesn't make those guys/gals in the Super classes feel very good....

Joe, us sportsman guys who run anything know that we are downtime fillers and they could care less about us. We know it and accept it as what it is. Atleast we get to run the "show".

 

[MoparBilly]

Wes..
Very nice post, and I understand completely where your perspective is coming from. I think you're wrong on several counts though. I can't see the NHRA ADDING 2 new sportsman classes to the National Event rotation, just not going to happen. So..let's assume they would be REPLACING someone, TAD, TAFC, COMP, SC, SG?? I have no idea, just pick any 2 and take the MONEY and CARS, in either of the 2 classes you pick, and unleash that MONEY on T/dragster and Sportsman!!! I can tell you RIGHT NOW that 7.30 cars would be obsolete at NHRA Nationals in less than a year. I love the Ihra and Ihra racers, but it's dangerous to look at them and try to predict what would happen in NHRA, There simply aren't as many people in the Ihra that are ready to open thier wallet and spend insane amounts to buy/win a Championship.