Response from Evan Knoll (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Evan Knoll
- Start date
Treeshaker
Nitro Member
Sorry George, but that is exactly the point here for all racers. There always has been, and probably always will be people with bigger egos than the where with all to support them.
In business and in racing (which I consider a business), there are those times that I will extend services prior to being paid. But I always have a track record with those individuals and feel I have a reasonable chance of them fulfilling their promises. But if they don't, I accept the responsibility for the expenses I incurred prior to being paid. But there are usually caveats in the agreement that will allow me to recover my expenses in other ways.
The first time I met with Evan, we both realized that we were different and decided that we would not do what I was brought there to discuss. Instead he offered to sponsor John's car for the balance of the year, he paid then and I fulfilled my obligations. We had several other dealings that year, but when I was considered for further sponsorship for the following year I declined. My decision was based on what I saw going on, nothing else.
Others fit in and it gave them a boost in their careers. Some kept spending even when the "golden goose" quit laying. Others stopped spending the minute the money stopped arriving. To me, they all made a consious decision and in the end need to take responsibility for that decision, what ever that decision might have been.
If you do not like Evan or Mike, or people like them, for their personalities or business ethics, that is your choice. Just walk away and avoid them. If you do like them and hang around, be wary, because they are experienced and good at what they do, and any benefits, success, displeasure or financial losses you incur are your responsibilty.
In business and in racing (which I consider a business), there are those times that I will extend services prior to being paid. But I always have a track record with those individuals and feel I have a reasonable chance of them fulfilling their promises. But if they don't, I accept the responsibility for the expenses I incurred prior to being paid. But there are usually caveats in the agreement that will allow me to recover my expenses in other ways.
The first time I met with Evan, we both realized that we were different and decided that we would not do what I was brought there to discuss. Instead he offered to sponsor John's car for the balance of the year, he paid then and I fulfilled my obligations. We had several other dealings that year, but when I was considered for further sponsorship for the following year I declined. My decision was based on what I saw going on, nothing else.
Others fit in and it gave them a boost in their careers. Some kept spending even when the "golden goose" quit laying. Others stopped spending the minute the money stopped arriving. To me, they all made a consious decision and in the end need to take responsibility for that decision, what ever that decision might have been.
If you do not like Evan or Mike, or people like them, for their personalities or business ethics, that is your choice. Just walk away and avoid them. If you do like them and hang around, be wary, because they are experienced and good at what they do, and any benefits, success, displeasure or financial losses you incur are your responsibilty.
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I understand where you are coming from, and I agree.
The people who were hurt the most were the people who were most vulnerable. Those who were in a spot in their own racing careers who weren't established enough to command a deal from an established company, and felt they had to take a chance on that guy.
I can see the dilemma. Do you question the only person willing to help by asking questions that may rub his over-inflated ego the wrong way, and possibly cost the sponsorship, or do you keep your mouth shut and take a chance.
Either way, it is a lesson to be learned by those who are in a simular compromising position in their own respective career.
What chaps my rear end is the respect that guy still receives for the money he spent on the sport, that really wasn't his to spend at all. When I read posts from people like Bobby Miller, I have to keep telling myself "different strokes for different folks" applies.
I do know Karma is a mutha, and it will eventually "right" things wrong.
The people who were hurt the most were the people who were most vulnerable. Those who were in a spot in their own racing careers who weren't established enough to command a deal from an established company, and felt they had to take a chance on that guy.
I can see the dilemma. Do you question the only person willing to help by asking questions that may rub his over-inflated ego the wrong way, and possibly cost the sponsorship, or do you keep your mouth shut and take a chance.
Either way, it is a lesson to be learned by those who are in a simular compromising position in their own respective career.
What chaps my rear end is the respect that guy still receives for the money he spent on the sport, that really wasn't his to spend at all. When I read posts from people like Bobby Miller, I have to keep telling myself "different strokes for different folks" applies.
I do know Karma is a mutha, and it will eventually "right" things wrong.
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You!
Nitro Member
Most everyone seems to forget that his dealings not only hurt the race teams he supposedly sponsored, but every tax payer as well! He took tax rebates that he was not entitled to and that comes out of YOUR pocket.
This whole thing was a house of cards that finally had a large enough wind come along to blow it over. Not the racer's faults; most had their head in the sand. As long as the checks kept coming, they were happy. Virgil certainly doesn't fit in that category.
When one of Evan's racer/employees told me that Torco was doing over 300 million(!)annually in RACING FUEL SALES (not propane) it was obvious that many had taken a large sip of his Kool-Aid.
So just remember who was ultimately hurt with his business style.
This whole thing was a house of cards that finally had a large enough wind come along to blow it over. Not the racer's faults; most had their head in the sand. As long as the checks kept coming, they were happy. Virgil certainly doesn't fit in that category.
When one of Evan's racer/employees told me that Torco was doing over 300 million(!)annually in RACING FUEL SALES (not propane) it was obvious that many had taken a large sip of his Kool-Aid.
So just remember who was ultimately hurt with his business style.
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And what a good thread it is to be brought back.
If you roll all of George, Virgil, and Bill's words together as well some other comments in the thread it becomes pretty sage advice for anyone working with a sponsor or even for anyone in business as a whole. Alot of very valid points.
Learned a long time ago from a very wise woman in racing to trust no one, totally. Another one that has been repeated a few times over the years in the pits..."beware of Greeks bearing gifts". (Trojan Horse)
Obligatory Disclaimer: No offense intended towards Greeks (Karamesines) or (Larry Fullerton Sr. rip)
There has to be some trust, but not much.
1) Get a good contract done by a good business attorney familiar with motorsports, not Fred the lawyer down the street. Be prepared to spend a chunk of change here. Never waiver on the contract being signed. No tickey, no laundry.
Friends are friends, family is family, but business is business.
2) Cash ideally, then wire transfers, direct deposits, hard parts delivered direct with receipt balance marked zero, certified checks, ...in that order down the food chain.
3) Work off of last weeks money that has cleared the bank, is yours, and only use 50% of that. Do not expect it will be all good next week or that it will last forever.
4) Do not ever race the house or the dinner table.
5) Cash is king period (well that and Richard Tharp). Pay for everything you can up front. Do not finance racing unless you don't mind being on some hack Repo Man TV show when they come to pick up your junk. (see #4).
6) If it sounds to good...If you have to sell something and lots of it to get something... Think here. Talk to someone. Talk to many. And use a NDNCA when you do.
It is not just about one person or one certain sponsor floating one in the punch bowl. There have been many over the years you can poke at.
Even one very recent 'next savior of drag racing' that slammed the brakes on and seems to be currently unavailable for comment.
If you roll all of George, Virgil, and Bill's words together as well some other comments in the thread it becomes pretty sage advice for anyone working with a sponsor or even for anyone in business as a whole. Alot of very valid points.
Learned a long time ago from a very wise woman in racing to trust no one, totally. Another one that has been repeated a few times over the years in the pits..."beware of Greeks bearing gifts". (Trojan Horse)
Obligatory Disclaimer: No offense intended towards Greeks (Karamesines) or (Larry Fullerton Sr. rip)
There has to be some trust, but not much.
1) Get a good contract done by a good business attorney familiar with motorsports, not Fred the lawyer down the street. Be prepared to spend a chunk of change here. Never waiver on the contract being signed. No tickey, no laundry.
Friends are friends, family is family, but business is business.
2) Cash ideally, then wire transfers, direct deposits, hard parts delivered direct with receipt balance marked zero, certified checks, ...in that order down the food chain.
3) Work off of last weeks money that has cleared the bank, is yours, and only use 50% of that. Do not expect it will be all good next week or that it will last forever.
4) Do not ever race the house or the dinner table.
5) Cash is king period (well that and Richard Tharp). Pay for everything you can up front. Do not finance racing unless you don't mind being on some hack Repo Man TV show when they come to pick up your junk. (see #4).
6) If it sounds to good...If you have to sell something and lots of it to get something... Think here. Talk to someone. Talk to many. And use a NDNCA when you do.
It is not just about one person or one certain sponsor floating one in the punch bowl. There have been many over the years you can poke at.
Even one very recent 'next savior of drag racing' that slammed the brakes on and seems to be currently unavailable for comment.
Treeshaker
Nitro Member
I would just like to add that no matter how good a contract you have, it is not even worth the paper it is written on if the people behind it will not honor the contract. You may sue them and get a judgement, but if they do not want to pay, they won't. There are many ways for them to get around paying you, and sometimes it just gets down to who wants to spend the most on lawyers.
It is just a fence. And like you said Virgil it is just paper. All they do is change company name, board, and business financing arrangements and boom you are null and void. Not that it would or did ever happen to anyone I know of, of course.
Goes back to third paragraph. Trust no one completely. And if you see wooden horses on wheels casting shadows bigger than your trailer run like hell.
Short story: Had one sponsorship deal (alleged marketing partnership, using that term very loosely) for pretty large dollars. All looked great, paper going back and forth. Read very closely to last document that was sent that had been changed. Had to sell about $15M worth of product to get the first buck to go towards racing. Needless to say they are out of the game racing and business wise.
Paper tigers. Beware the bite and they run in groups, with leopards that can change spot and such.
And lest some holier than thou forget. A bad sponsorship deal in the news does not bode well for the sport and industry as a whole. As much as some don't or may not believe it Wall Street and the financials sector does keep track of what happens out here.
Nitrohelper
Nitro Member
When I read his post about the mortgage man , I thought it would be a perfect time to remember a past sponsor's future predictions......
I have had early meetings with potential clients that had me squirting down both legs with all the big money talk ...
but then near the end of negotiations , they want you to do twice as much work (events) for "half the money".
And they don't want to make any 20% advance payment , just send us monthly invoices ...
Too many times you have to take a really deep breath , look out the window for a few moments ...
and then say ... "I'm sorry folks but I just can't do the right job for that amount of money...
... a Nitro Geezer ...
...
...Spending taxpayers' money to fund racing teams?
mw6789
Nitro Member
Virgil Hartman is exactly right--contracts are no better than the person behind the contract. As my banker once told me, I loan money on your good name. I may have liens on "things", but nothing will prevent you from loading all this stuff up in the middle of the night and going off and selling the "things". I can get a judgement against you, but if I cant find you, or if you have nothing for me to get, it is worthless. I have a couple of those worthless judgments I have gathered in nearly 30 years of business. Only ones making out on contract disputes are----you guessed it----the lawyers. Also when it is too good to be true--it usually is. Just my two cents worth and probably overpriced at that.
Nitrohelper
Nitro Member
Here we are in the middle of winter with nothing to do but review some old threads...
It's been five years now since many of you folks wanted to shake Mr. Knoll's hand...
I particularly find interesting the fact that all of those health problems he claimed were found to be false by the Court...
I do give him credit for being brave enough to con the Federal Government out of over 88 million tax payer dollars...
It's easy to understand how the investment community was able to con Billions when a convenience store operator can get Millions with phoney paperwork...
Myself and several others were chastised for calling Mr Knoll a dead beat - - -
It's not nice to say we told you so, but "we told you so"...
Originally Posted
"Am I the only one amazed at those willing to kick Evan on his way in and out of the hospital? "
It's been five years now since many of you folks wanted to shake Mr. Knoll's hand...
I particularly find interesting the fact that all of those health problems he claimed were found to be false by the Court...
I do give him credit for being brave enough to con the Federal Government out of over 88 million tax payer dollars...
It's easy to understand how the investment community was able to con Billions when a convenience store operator can get Millions with phoney paperwork...
Myself and several others were chastised for calling Mr Knoll a dead beat - - -
It's not nice to say we told you so, but "we told you so"...
Originally Posted
"Am I the only one amazed at those willing to kick Evan on his way in and out of the hospital? "
Larry jr.
Nitro Member
Here we are in the middle of winter with nothing to do but review some old threads...
I do give him credit for being brave enough to con the Federal Government out of over 88 million tax payer dollars...
It's easy to understand how the investment community was able to con Billions when a convenience store operator can get Millions with phoney paperwork...
Myself and several others were chastised for calling Mr Knoll a dead beat - - -
It's not nice to say we told you so, but "we told you so"...
Originally Posted
"Am I the only one amazed at those willing to kick Evan on his way in and out of the hospital? "
Really Huh?
Feels pretty good to me too, especially when few had any sack to post what some could clearly see as BS, and then take all of the insults and heat for calling it out...
Bobby Miller continually humiliated himself defending that POS, while insulting good people and their character many times over. Now he, and others pay the price.
Moral of the story for those who were blinded by... uh-hum... celebrity in the NHRA ranks?
If someone does anything other than what was previously promised, he is a dirt bag that cash (in this case, your cash) can't hide... Sense the red flags, and there are a plenty when any individual deflects responsibility to someone else.
Bobby Miller continually humiliated himself defending that POS, while insulting good people and their character many times over. Now he, and others pay the price.
Moral of the story for those who were blinded by... uh-hum... celebrity in the NHRA ranks?
If someone does anything other than what was previously promised, he is a dirt bag that cash (in this case, your cash) can't hide... Sense the red flags, and there are a plenty when any individual deflects responsibility to someone else.
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