First off, I want to extend my condolences to the families of Steve Engel and Doug Mcrobie. I don't want to appear insensitive, I just wanted to open a discussion about the efforts being put forth in our sport to slow down and make the nitro cars safer, which I fully support, but I have always thought that it seems we lose more sportsmen racers (thank God still a very small number) than drivers of the fastest cars on the planet, and somehow those accidents don't generate the same amount of attention. I don't know the details of these latest two accidents, but was there anything learned about them that could prevent similar situations from happening again? Again, I know this is touchy, but I think the people that post here know what I mean.
Racing Accidents (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Nunz
- Start date
Crash
Nitro Member
I think part of the reason it seems (or may actually be) that we lose more sportsman racers is that the sheer number of racers and the number of passes they make. On any given weekend I imagine the ratio of sportsman passes to pro passes is probably 10 or maybe even 20 to one at a national event, plus divisional races, national opens, etc. I am not trying to change the subject, or divert attention from safety issues, just trying to put all the info out there for consideration.
Tim
Tim
John,
As a fan, your obvious lack of knowledge about these classes is understandable. Those cars and dragsters that you'd have a speed limit placed on in the Super categories are the exact same cars and dragster that would compete in Top Dragster and/or Top Sportsman. So your suggestion is mute.
As Tim noted above, on any given weekend the number of sportsman racers competing around the country is probably a 100 times that of the pros. Sheer numbers account for the difference.
The sad part is as Nunzio alluded to, the fact that the deaths of sportsman racers are largely ignored by NHRA.
scubasteve
Nitro Member
john not trying to be a ahole, but do u race ??theres a reason/advantage them cars run that fast. doug crashed at 150. racing will always be dangerous ,period. please dont take this post as a jab at u ,not meant to be.
scubasteve
Nitro Member
greg got me on a holeshot
Tony
Nitro Member
Amazing! It only took 4 posts before the NHRA was thrown under the bus.
Tony,
What part of my statement is erroneous? It's a simple fact that NHRA almost never acknowledges accidents/deaths amongst the sportsman ranks.
If that's throwing them under the bus then so be it!!
Dave
Nitro Member
I think John is on the right track with this. I have always been against the throttle stops and this stop and start routine with the Super Class cars. And before anybody tries to say I don't have a clue, I am one of those Super Class racers. The high speeds are due to the high horsepower in these needlessly large cubic inch engines. They didn't always race Super Classes this way. My Altered has a 358 c.i.d. engnie that puts out over 600 horsepower. The best runs the car has made is 8.72 @ 151 MPH. No delay box, no stop and start, just make your run and be done with it. I do have to de-tune the car a bit to run on the 8.90 index, but I still don't use a delay box or a throttle stop. I think these classes can be run without them and it could be safer. A few years ago at Orlando, I watched John Spar run Super Comp with a blown big block in his dragster. He went 8.90 @ 198 MPH. Is this big speed really necessary to run 8.90? Hey, I don't know for sure how Doug Mcrobie's accident happened but I do know it is very sad that it did happen. I do think this throttle stop thing has gone far enough. Everybody wants to make big changes when a Pro Racer is killed, but nobody seems to care when a sportsman racers is lost. Maybe throttle stop racing needs to be looked at and some changes need to be made.
Dave
Dave
I know that when there has been a fatality in the pro ranks, it seems more far-reaching because every fan has the feeling that they knew the racer personally, as opposed to someone from the sportsman ranks. I'm not saying anyone should be thrown under the bus, but recent incidents have caused sweeping changes within the sport's nitro categories, while 2 people unfortunately have fatal accidents in much slower, less volatile classes, just weeks apart, and I doubt anyone will be pushing to re-examine those categories or to make drastic changes. Again, just thinking out loud.
Buddy
Nitro Member
Dave beat me to it... I'm also a S/C racer, and I think all these high speeds are too much... We run ours like a cadillac at 165 MPH... We could go faster, but we don't see a reason to increase the risk of parts or more importantly my life...
Greg, yes it gives an advantage... I admit I'm guessing at 1000' where the high speed cars are.. But I've seen them crash their cars at those speeds... There's guys with LOADS of experience who crash, and don't you think "maybe" 20 MPH slower and they would have a better chance at keeping their car under control?
I locked the brakes at the finish line earlier this year, and thank god I wasn't going 190... When that happened my first thought/reaction was to look and see where the other guy was (just in case crap happened)... You have to realize when you increase the risk in your car to give you a little better edge, you are also risking the guy next to you... I don't think that's something I could do...
The mentality of "faster is better" is why people build such fast dragsters... The side effect is people who can afford it only want the best, and some new drivers get more speed than they are prepared for... I see this a lot with T/S...
I don't think anyone's opinion is wrong, but my personal choice is safety over speed.
CJ Curtsinger
Greg, yes it gives an advantage... I admit I'm guessing at 1000' where the high speed cars are.. But I've seen them crash their cars at those speeds... There's guys with LOADS of experience who crash, and don't you think "maybe" 20 MPH slower and they would have a better chance at keeping their car under control?
I locked the brakes at the finish line earlier this year, and thank god I wasn't going 190... When that happened my first thought/reaction was to look and see where the other guy was (just in case crap happened)... You have to realize when you increase the risk in your car to give you a little better edge, you are also risking the guy next to you... I don't think that's something I could do...
The mentality of "faster is better" is why people build such fast dragsters... The side effect is people who can afford it only want the best, and some new drivers get more speed than they are prepared for... I see this a lot with T/S...
I don't think anyone's opinion is wrong, but my personal choice is safety over speed.
CJ Curtsinger
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Tim5636sc
Nitro Member
That's a very valid a good point CJ...However there are a few things I'd like to ask ya...
1) Why did you lock em up at the top end? Was it to avoid the break-out, because your car was set on running about .02-.03 under the index?
I think this is the main reason most of the "LOCKING THE HYDES" accidents occur. We're trying to take a small stripe and many drivers make that last SPLIT SECOND decision to "SLAM THE BRAKES"... this is Driver error, and occures whether the car is doing 165 or 190. I too have made this error in my past, heck I've literally had the rear tires in the air over the finish line because I hit the brakes so hard... I kept the car straight, but it was LUCK! I think the problem is not the Speed of the Faster cars causing the accidents, it's the SET UP of the car, (trying to kill .03 in less than 100' is really tough and Dangerous...even with a Link Chassis) and the driver's Judgement in hitting the brakes HARD that ultimatly causes the accident.
2) You said earlier that "You have to realize when you increase the risk in your car to give you a little better edge, you are also risking the guy next to you... I don't think that's something I could do.."..
Well actually not really. When your going faster, you see the entire race ahead of you and you can make the appropriate changes, (IE WOMPIN THE THROTTLE, SLOWING THE CAR WITH BRAKE) more than the slower car, who is #1... LOOKING BEHIND THEM AT THE OTHER CAR (not looking in front of them to see where they are going, and you've been to Hawley's class....Remember where the Eye's go...the Hands Instinctivly follow...) so the slow car is usually not going STRAIGHT when they "Lock the brakes". When this happens, the chassis is more likely to UNLOAD and the accidents occur. The faster car, your looking at a point on that car, but also FORWARD. The car tends to go straighter, and if the brakes lock up, it's more likely to stay going straight.
I agree with the concept that Sometimes FASTER is Not better. But, I can't prescribe to the PROBLEM is the speed of the super class cars argument. I think it's more Driver error, and parts failure, but the difference in speed, (in my opinion) is not the factor in why these accidents occur.
scubasteve
Nitro Member
if my memory is right cj had a brake failure he wasnt dumping etc etc . wasnt it right b4 gators this yr??? i just know give me a 588 jeff taylor or a 632 nesbitt or sunset motor, par engine . so u can get up on his door
my friends call me Zappy
Nitro Member
Right you are sir.
FABMAN
Nitro Member
Dave, excellent post. I raced Pro Gas then Super Gas in the 70's and 80's. I never used electronics but i did use a transmission brake. It's a lot more fun using your tuning talents and running all out. I think the fans would be more interested in the classes if they took electronics out of the equation.
FC Girl
Nitro Member
R.I.P. Doug Mcrobie Our sincere condolences to his family and friends.
I just found out last night about this accident. A part failure can happen at anytime, it can happen on the freeway (interstate) going 65 mph and cause fatality. So can a slick surface (rain, dew) and cause problems, over correcting, many different things. Does every single accident on a fwy end up in the news? No..... Is it horrible? YES!
We sign waivers as drivers and crew. Everytime you fire a car, you have this risk.
Is NHRA supposed to acknowledge every accident? Maybe we should suggest that they post on the Lucas oil portion of NHRA.com for this information. It's almost impossible to get every incident up there, especially when 95% of the employess were at a national event.
CJ--blip the throttle, it's much safer than drilling the brakes. My S/C was .020 for every blip and you have much more control of what's happening.
I just found out last night about this accident. A part failure can happen at anytime, it can happen on the freeway (interstate) going 65 mph and cause fatality. So can a slick surface (rain, dew) and cause problems, over correcting, many different things. Does every single accident on a fwy end up in the news? No..... Is it horrible? YES!
We sign waivers as drivers and crew. Everytime you fire a car, you have this risk.
Is NHRA supposed to acknowledge every accident? Maybe we should suggest that they post on the Lucas oil portion of NHRA.com for this information. It's almost impossible to get every incident up there, especially when 95% of the employess were at a national event.
CJ--blip the throttle, it's much safer than drilling the brakes. My S/C was .020 for every blip and you have much more control of what's happening.
Greg,
As a human, your obvious lack of respect for someone else's opinion and condescending tone is not understandable. What's wrong with saying, "John, I don't agree and here is why." These discussions are to promote ideas of making the sport safer, not "I'm smarter than you" jabs at each other.
yoda
Nitro Member
Also an excellent post Jesse... Other than Rally car racing, are the Super Classes are the only form of racing where you are supposed to SLOW DOWN to win?
What WOULD all those poor manufacturers of stutter/delay boxes do with all that inventory???
Maybe a bailout from Glendora? The fans are not going to be interested in Super Class racing no matter what. I race in the super classes and can tell you that tuning a car that is using a throttle stop is fun and very challenging. Not only are you using your talent to tune the car all out but also when it is on the stop and how it comes off etc. For the people that have not tried it you cannot imagine how many variables this puts in the equation. Also I do agree with what Greg said about the same car being used in Super Gas as Top Sportsman. What does a throttle stop have to do with excessive braking at the top end. This is very unfortunate and I can tell you from a mistake I made last year that this can happen to anyone using the brake pedal at the finish line throttle stop or not.
