PSM Parity

[Nick Name]

I watched a H-D Destroyer make a series of passes on a cool evening night. That's their limited production, turn key drag race bike. It's equipped with wheelie bars, ignition kill and everything else that's needed to race in competition. It is miles away from being street legal. The times? How about an 11.30?

Dan;
I believe 11:30s is what a standard V-Rod runs. The Destroyers are high 9s.

Some time back HD brought some Destroyers to Fontana for the press to ride. One of the guys ran a high 9 and was booted because he didn't have an NHRA license which you have to have to run under 10 flat on a bike.

Jay

 

[nick name]

Thanks for the clarification, Jay.

I don't remember the bike leaving very hard or pulling hard through the gears for that matter. Of course, I may have misrembered the digit; if so then I apologize. Either the team was clueless and it was indeed an 11.30 or I was clueless and it was actually a 10.30. I am 100% sure it was not in the nines.

Either way, I regret any misinformation in my post.

 

[johnny]

Thanks for the clarification, Jay.

Either way, I regret any misinformation in my post.

Dan, you can't really over state that real V-RODS kinda suck.
...and I own two Harleys.

 

["Dr. Dirt"]

It's simple to me. There are whiners and there are winners. I've never heard Matt or Andrew, GT or Eddie go public and whine about the other guys because they aren't able to cover their performance. I have heard an awful lot of others whine to the point of rule changes against them exclusively. Any chance we are punishing them for superior engineering, design, engine/transmission/clutch/setup performance and testing success every time they get another 20 lbs that no one else gets? Any chance they work harder/smarter/longer in order to keep their top shelf performance that draws so much attention? When the bar gets raised, be prepared to jump higher or go out but bad-mouthing the victor does nothing more than make you look like a poor sport.

Maybe the reason they were more consistent when the track went sour was that all that stinking extra weight they carry was actually keeping them stuck to the racing surface?

Whiners or winners. Check the record books.

 

[Stroker]

It's simple to me. There are whiners and there are winners. I've never heard Matt or Andrew, GT or Eddie go public and whine about the other guys because they aren't able to cover their performance. I have heard an awful lot of others whine to the point of rule changes against them exclusively. Any chance we are punishing them for superior engineering, design, engine/transmission/clutch/setup performance and testing success every time they get another 20 lbs that no one else gets? Any chance they work harder/smarter/longer in order to keep their top shelf performance that draws so much attention? When the bar gets raised, be prepared to jump higher or go out but bad-mouthing the victor does nothing more than make you look like a poor sport.

Maybe the reason they were more consistent when the track went sour was that all that stinking extra weight they carry was actually keeping them stuck to the racing surface?

Whiners or winners. Check the record books.

Another advantage, they can move that extra weight around where it will do the most good!

 

[nick name]

It's simple to me. There are whiners and there are winners. I've never heard Matt or Andrew, GT or Eddie go public and whine about the other guys because they aren't able to cover their performance. I have heard an awful lot of others whine to the point of rule changes against them exclusively. Any chance we are punishing them for superior engineering, design, engine/transmission/clutch/setup performance and testing success every time they get another 20 lbs that no one else gets? Any chance they work harder/smarter/longer in order to keep their top shelf performance that draws so much attention? When the bar gets raised, be prepared to jump higher or go out but bad-mouthing the victor does nothing more than make you look like a poor sport.

Maybe the reason they were more consistent when the track went sour was that all that stinking extra weight they carry was actually keeping them stuck to the racing surface?

Whiners or winners. Check the record books.

I might be inclined to agree with you were there not numerous instances where competing technology has been outlawed. Remember the Gann head and the Schumacher cassette transmission?

Both were examples of exceptional R&D work which was never allowed to enter competition. THOSE guys were working harder to win but the NHRA would not allow their inventions.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I honestly can't ever remember when the H-D racers were turned down for new parts. Does anyone have an example?

Issues such as this are the cause of all the commenting about PSM parity. I can't imagine anyone familiar with drag racing not believing that Byron Hines is one of the most inventive minds ever to compete. But if he's allowed to put his creations into competition, why can't the others?

 

[Nick Name]

I had long visits with both Byron Hines and George Bryce at Indy this weekend, and, believe it or not, this subject never came up. There is just a huge lack of interest in NHRA PSM in the mainstream motorcycle drag racing scene.

There were a number of former pro stock bikes there that were converted into pro mods.

 

[team23rulz]

It's simple to me. There are whiners and there are winners. I've never heard Matt or Andrew, GT or Eddie go public and whine about the other guys because they aren't able to cover their performance. I have heard an awful lot of others whine to the point of rule changes against them exclusively. Any chance we are punishing them for superior engineering, design, engine/transmission/clutch/setup performance and testing success every time they get another 20 lbs that no one else gets? Any chance they work harder/smarter/longer in order to keep their top shelf performance that draws so much attention? When the bar gets raised, be prepared to jump higher or go out but bad-mouthing the victor does nothing more than make you look like a poor sport.

Maybe the reason they were more consistent when the track went sour was that all that stinking extra weight they carry was actually keeping them stuck to the racing surface?

Whiners or winners. Check the record books.

You obviously don't follow PSM, and let me tell you how I know. Last year, there was a Buell rider who was outrunning everyone. He, along with other Buell riders, got penalized 20lbs. for his efforts and hard work. Do you know what rider that was? Matt Smith! The same guy you're apparently calling a whiner.

Here's the problem with your above statement. NO ONE has the same engine configuration as the V&H bike. So there is NO ONE to even attempt to build a better engine than V&H. Oh yea, if someone wanted to build an engine similar to the V&H DOHC 4-valve 160 cu.in. motor, they couldn't! NHRA would not allow it! George Bryce tried. He was denied, even though there is a production Buell with a DOHC 4-valve motor in it. It's known as the Buell 1125R. Matter of fact, Matt Smith had a body made off of that same Buell motorcycle last year, and was denied the ability to run it. So how can you say someone is building a better setup when NO ONE can even run the same, or a similar setup? You CAN'T!

 

[suckeez azz]

In the AHDRA, those Destroyers are running low 9s 9.1 - 9.2 (they have a spec heads up class). Not bad for a showroom drag bike that was sold for $30K and some have sold for even as little as 20K new.

 

[Paul]

To my best understanding, the Pro Stock classes have always had rules that the basic engine components (blocks, heads, valvetrain, etc.) required to build an engine from the participating manufactures had to be openly available for purchase by any competitor.

To keep the playing field level these rules make sense, and I think its a pretty poor decision that the NHRA is not enforcing these rules in the PSM class. It definitely makes it appear that they favor their economic interests over maintaining fair competition, and that makes them and the sport look pretty bad.

I doubt that Harley Davidson's desire to limit their engine parts to just their factory team is driven by any desire to have only the factory team win races. Its more likely driven by the high costs they would incur to put these parts in even a limited production run, as it appears many of parts are "one-offs".

But if they wish to compete in a way that is perceived as fair by their competitors and the fans in general they should play by the rules everyone else does and make the basic engine components available to anyone.

Paul T.

 

[johnny]

I doubt that Harley Davidson's desire to limit their engine parts to just their factory team is driven by any desire to have only the factory team win races. Its more likely driven by the high costs they would incur to put these parts in even a limited production run, as it appears many of parts are "one-offs".

But if they wish to compete in a way that is perceived as fair by their competitors and the fans in general they should play by the rules everyone else does and make the basic engine components available to anyone.

Paul T.

The parts for all intents and purposes are for sale. It appears that no one wants to pay the price. The cost may be justified by the exact reasons you specify. I'm of the opinion that the issue of availability isn't nearly as the NHRA's willingness to stifle the development of the other platforms. In this day and age, Cassette Transmissions, Gann Heads, and the Smith-Buell body, should probably be out there. The legislation should probably be more relative to the results of the development than the development itself. There is an unwritten index in place. The current problem is that under the current rules, all configurations can't run consistently near index. The cost to run the index doesn't appear to be an issue or there would be no 4 valve Harley head or a Euro-Suzuki (which is why the Gann decision is puzzling).

I'd be willing to bet that VHR weren't the principals who were instrumental in the rejection of the outlawed Gann head. The Smith body...well that's a mystery that really makes no sense.

What's amazing to me is all the anti-VHR/Harley sentiment that exists. Is it not NHRA that is consistently making the questionable decisions?

 

["Dr. Dirt"]

You obviously don't follow PSM, and let me tell you how I know. Last year, there was a Buell rider who was outrunning everyone. He, along with other Buell riders, got penalized 20lbs. for his efforts and hard work. Do you know what rider that was? Matt Smith! The same guy you're apparently calling a whiner. . . .

You are incorrect believing I was singling out Matt Smith or any other single person with my post. The point was simply generic in context as the NHRA got themselves into this mess by attempting to constantly legislate parity while allowing and denying such diverse and evolving combinations. Believing for even a minute that these bikes would all be equal given the ever-changing weights, evolving parts & circumstances is akin to believing A Fuel could evenly compete with Blown Alcohol in all circumstances. It won't ever happen! As a result, those who elect to participate in this class while working feverishly to stay competitive, which I believe most are doing, must also accept the confines of the sanctioning body's rulings as the TAD class must.

There are no easy fixes to this parity question but the decision to run in the class or not can be - and, worst of all, believing that the NHRA will provide the solution to the problem is an unwise notion, in my opinion.

 

[Nick Name]

I'd be willing to bet that VHR weren't the principals who were instrumental in the rejection of the outlawed Gann head. The Smith body...well that's a mystery that really makes no sense.

What's amazing to me is all the anti-VHR/Harley sentiment that exists. Is it not NHRA that is consistently making the questionable decisions?

Johnny I have to agree. Byron has a solid history in PSM, and it never included having to have engines that no one else had in order to win.

Harley Davidson®, well that's another story.

 

[johnny]

There are no easy fixes to this parity question but the decision to run in the class or not can be - and, worst of all, believing that the NHRA will provide the solution to the problem is an unwise notion, in my opinion.

The solutions in PSM are far easier than TAD. You could easily legislate all of the bikes to 6.95-ish Sea Level Index tomorrow, based on todays data. The constant unknown is the Harley's primarily because you can only compare them to themselves.

Me, I would start with a c.i. limitation on the Harley's making them smaller. They'd even get a diet and weigh the same as the Buells. I'd leave the Buells alone. The Suzuki's would get the Cassette and the Head. At the end of the year, Eddie or Andrew are probably still champs but, Bryce probably returns in 2010 and Matt has a chance to compete.

To make the Harley's faster with a blind eye to the rest of the class was a curious NHRA decision. It's not like they weren't fast before the head.

To think VHR wouldn't be a dominant presence regardless of legislation is silly. They are that good. If you race PSM, they are the benchmark...always is, always wuz.

 

[Girl]

He's not whining. He's just the only one that has the balls to speak up.

Hey, What you trying to say Amanda? That I don't have,.... oh wait,... you're right,... I don't have those. He He!!

Congrats on your marriage chicky! Miss you!

 

[Girl]

I kinda wonder how many people's Lives she has helped as a Nurse? And will in the future Paul. Either way what ever she chooses to do, Angelle will be happy with it.

Thanks guys!! I am very happy right now. This break has been REALLY good for me. I had absolutely NO IDEA how much I needed it!! Who knows what's in store for me, but like you put it Paul, I will be happy and I will make the most of it. I do believe that I am done with PSM though. I'm ready for something different. I loved my 13 years of PSM and am so grateful to have had the experience. Whatever happens, I want you guys to know that your support has meant the world to me. Even the bashing that I've taken, when place was more like nitroHATER, has made me a better and stronger person. I have truly been blessed!! Thanks YALL!!!

Angelle

 

[camaro]

Who knows what's in store for me, but like you put it Paul, I will be happy and I will make the most of it. I do believe that I am done with PSM though. I'm ready for something different.

Hows about Prostock car ? That class could really use a lady in the mix to bump up interest and Angelle would be just the ticket IMO !!

 

[4g63rwd]

Thanks guys!! I am very happy right now. This break has been REALLY good for me. I had absolutely NO IDEA how much I needed it!! Who knows what's in store for me, but like you put it Paul, I will be happy and I will make the most of it. I do believe that I am done with PSM though. I'm ready for something different. I loved my 13 years of PSM and am so grateful to have had the experience. Whatever happens, I want you guys to know that your support has meant the world to me. Even the bashing that I've taken, when place was more like nitroHATER, has made me a better and stronger person. I have truly been blessed!! Thanks YALL!!!

Angelle

OUCH. My excitement level for watching this class just lost a few points! I guess I have to root for JUST Doug Horne now, since he's from here!

 

[team23rulz]

You are incorrect believing I was singling out Matt Smith or any other single person with my post.

Well it's a pretty strong statement to call out these PSB teams and say they're whiners! The Buell teams and the one Suzuki team not running V&H power are working their tails off to compete. If the V-Rods wouldn't have been given the 4-valve head over the summer, I doubt you would hear half the complaining that's coming from the PSB pits.

Believing for even a minute that these bikes would all be equal given the ever-changing weights, evolving parts & circumstances is akin to believing A Fuel could evenly compete with Blown Alcohol in all circumstances. It won't ever happen! As a result, those who elect to participate in this class while working feverishly to stay competitive, which I believe most are doing, must also accept the confines of the sanctioning body's rulings as the TAD class must.

You just can't compare apples and oranges. The situation in PSB is nothing like the one in TAD. Competitors in TAD can chose blown alcohol or injected nitro. I'll say this one last time NO ONE OTHER THAN V&H CAN RUN A 160 CU.IN. 60 DEGREE DOHC 4-VALVE MOTOR. Even if you wanted to build your own and not buy the V&H motor, you couldn't do it. I don't care what way you spin it, that's not fair.

Finally, I'm sorry if I personally attacked you, I didn't try to. I can walk in the back of the shop where I work and touch a PSM motor. I don't think it fair to call anyone a whiner in PSB at this point in time.

 

[johnny]

Well it's a pretty strong statement to call out these PSB teams and say they're whiners! The Buell teams and the one Suzuki team not running V&H power are working their tails off to compete.

The Suzuki's with V&H power aren't exactly at the top of the heap.