PSM Parity (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Paul
- Start date
Girl
Nitro Member
Thank you.Actually you are right about the nutty part. It runs in my family as well. We're all a bunch of crazy cajuns down here! Here's a pic of me catching dinner the other day.
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Tim5636sc
Nitro Member
what a tease
Actually you are right about the nutty part. It runs in my family as well. We're all a bunch of crazy cajuns down here! Here's a pic of me catching dinner the other day.
I talked with Mrs. Antron in Denver while we were waiting in the rain and i am glad you're doin good. Although many of us miss you racing, You're happiness is more important to many of your fans.
But don't be a stranger. Come see us at the track some time.
Paul
Nitro Member
Angelle, its pretty clear that you were put on this planet to race Pro Stock motorcycles.
Its what you excell at, you seem and probably feel most alive when your are doing it, people really enjoying watching you race, its your destiny.
I hope the economy turns around quickly so you can get back where you belong, I'm working as hard as I can to do my small part (we're tight, but I haven't had to lay anybody off yet).
Paul Titchener
www.power-t.com
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team23rulz
Nitro Member
I haven't chimed in on this subject in a long time, and don't plan on doing so again after this. I just had to throw out some facts that people really need to know to better understand this situation. I believe after 6 years of my life in the motorcycle business that I have a pretty good understanding of what is going on.
First off, the biggest argument always starts at engine comparisons. It's 160 cu.in. for the twins vs. 101 for the inlines, or 2622 ccs. vs. 1655. The reason originally for the large gap, as described to me by George Bryce, was due to the fact that a push-rod v-twin could not turn anywhere near the RPMs that an I4 could. Well that theory was thrown out when HD got the DOHC motor this year. So why did displacement stay the same? Doesn't make any sense. From what I'm told, the Buell's will turn about 9500 RPMs, please correct me if I'm wrong. The HD motors, from my keen hearing, seem to be turning much higher. I'm willing to bet they can turn 11.5K if they really wanted. I'll give a wild guess of 11k. That's quite a bunch over the Buell. Advantage HD. Now the I4s will go through the traps at around 13.5K. What keeps that from being a huge advantage is the fact that the I4 motor doesn't make the torque a v-twin does. V-Twins, from what I have seen on the dyno where I work, generally keep a more linear torque/hp curve than an I4. Thus the I4s will want to be at that high RPM as much as possible where the V-Twin will be a little more forgiving.
Second is the, "well how do you know they're sandbagging?" issue. The problem is there isn't an answer! Nobody other than the V&H crew knows the answer to that question. Because they own the only two bikes that are created the way the V-Rods are, they control everything they do. If they were to sell a HD to a customer, they would lose that control. There were rumors back in the day the V&H considered possibly leasing the V-Rod. The catch was this, they would do all the work on the bike, tune it, you would just ride. That way they could still control everything. Either they figured out that would be a bad idea, or it really was just a rumor. Regardless, until someone outside the V&H camp gets a V-Rod, we'll never know what they are truly capable of. And if you are a competitor, that's scary. There isn't any other class in the NHRA where that fear exists. Not even Pro Stock. And the reason that fear exists is because NHRA doesn't force HD to follow the rule where your parts have to be available to the competition at a fair price.
That's what I know about the situation. If I'm wrong, PLEASE correct me! I didn't write this to lie and I'm always open to learning the facts.
First off, the biggest argument always starts at engine comparisons. It's 160 cu.in. for the twins vs. 101 for the inlines, or 2622 ccs. vs. 1655. The reason originally for the large gap, as described to me by George Bryce, was due to the fact that a push-rod v-twin could not turn anywhere near the RPMs that an I4 could. Well that theory was thrown out when HD got the DOHC motor this year. So why did displacement stay the same? Doesn't make any sense. From what I'm told, the Buell's will turn about 9500 RPMs, please correct me if I'm wrong. The HD motors, from my keen hearing, seem to be turning much higher. I'm willing to bet they can turn 11.5K if they really wanted. I'll give a wild guess of 11k. That's quite a bunch over the Buell. Advantage HD. Now the I4s will go through the traps at around 13.5K. What keeps that from being a huge advantage is the fact that the I4 motor doesn't make the torque a v-twin does. V-Twins, from what I have seen on the dyno where I work, generally keep a more linear torque/hp curve than an I4. Thus the I4s will want to be at that high RPM as much as possible where the V-Twin will be a little more forgiving.
Second is the, "well how do you know they're sandbagging?" issue. The problem is there isn't an answer! Nobody other than the V&H crew knows the answer to that question. Because they own the only two bikes that are created the way the V-Rods are, they control everything they do. If they were to sell a HD to a customer, they would lose that control. There were rumors back in the day the V&H considered possibly leasing the V-Rod. The catch was this, they would do all the work on the bike, tune it, you would just ride. That way they could still control everything. Either they figured out that would be a bad idea, or it really was just a rumor. Regardless, until someone outside the V&H camp gets a V-Rod, we'll never know what they are truly capable of. And if you are a competitor, that's scary. There isn't any other class in the NHRA where that fear exists. Not even Pro Stock. And the reason that fear exists is because NHRA doesn't force HD to follow the rule where your parts have to be available to the competition at a fair price.
That's what I know about the situation. If I'm wrong, PLEASE correct me! I didn't write this to lie and I'm always open to learning the facts.
Tim5636sc
Nitro Member
I kinda wonder how many people's Lives she has helped as a Nurse? And will in the future Paul. Either way what ever she chooses to do, Angelle will be happy with it.
willy
Nitro Member
Thanks for chiming in, Angelle..
And Jordy..that's a nice in depth explanation.
Andrew is a member here..hey Buddy!! What do you think? You have the only parts available? New motor this year? Would really like to hear your side..other than the 'you guys don't know squat stuff''
Fill us in on why Harley will win the championship this year..and next if things don't change.
Hey maybe the new Suz will rock!! Wouldn't that be the shiznitz?
And Jordy..that's a nice in depth explanation.
Andrew is a member here..hey Buddy!! What do you think? You have the only parts available? New motor this year? Would really like to hear your side..other than the 'you guys don't know squat stuff''
Fill us in on why Harley will win the championship this year..and next if things don't change.
Hey maybe the new Suz will rock!! Wouldn't that be the shiznitz?
No one will be buying a V-Rod from Andrew, Eddie, Vance & Hines or anybody else. Harley paid every penny it took to build those beasts and they aren't going anywhere. Harley owns them, and if you show up with whatever money someone tells you they are going for, the price just doubled. Harley is not new to the racing game, they have been at it for over 100 years.
David, what does Andrew have to gain by responding? I see this as a no win situation for that team because someone will always be critical of them because of their exclusive deal with Harley and how Harley is the official bike of the NHRA. No one was *****ing when GT Tonglet was riding the Harley and the bike would rarely qualify during their first year and even in Andrew's first year the bikes were mid pack. I am just trying to look at this from their perspective.
team23rulz
Nitro Member
Paul, that statement is untrue. Suzuki supporters have been upset with this since day 1 of the rules change. I think it has been proven that you can't build a race ready motor in one year. The new Suzuki motor has been in development for over 2 years and has yet to hit the track. The reason, they want the motor to be competitive before it's in competition. HD decided to put their bike on the track while working out the kinks. That's why it didn't qualify, then after about 2 years of development, they were qualifying. The V-Rod was breaking records in just it's 3rd year of competition. Look back at G-ville 2004 when they did a pretty good job of running over the competition. They've won championships every year from '04-06, then Matt Smith broke up their party in '07, and Eddie got the title last year. Then the HD got a rules change AFTER winning 4 out of the past 5 championships. 3 years ago, the displacement for Suzukis was changed from 1508 ccs. to 1655 ccs. just so they could stay competitive. It's just strange that Suzuki got a rules change to stay competitive, but HD got one AFTER winning a championship.
I'm in no way trying to attack the V&H team on this issue. They're playing by the rules that were handed to them. They may have lobbied for those rules, but NHRA did little to consult with non-HD teams about the rules changes that were made. That's what really upset other teams with this last set of rule changes. That V&H crew works as hard as any other team out there. But this I know, when V&H were building Suzuki's, you could go to them and buy a motor that was at least close to having the same HP that Matt Hines had in his bike. If they could do that with the HD, they probably would, they're in the business to make money. Hell, they still supply most of the Suzuki competitors with engines. I really don't believe that the V-Rod not being for sale has anything to do with V&H, it has to do with the people that pay their bills.
Quit your whining geez. Do you ever stop?
Bill
Nitro Member
Jeff,
It's not whining when you have to pull virtually half again as much weight per cubic inch as the bike in the other lane... and the exact amount of weight difference is decided by fiat...
4-valve Harley 640 pounds/160 cid. 4 lbs./cu. in.
4-valve Suzuki 595 lbs./ 101 cu. in. 5.89 lbs. cu. in.
That's a 47-percent disparity...
Let 'em all pull the same pounds per cubic inch and see who's "whining" then...
(Running a Harley in PSB makes about as much sense as running a Ford Flathead in Pro Stock.)
It's not whining when you have to pull virtually half again as much weight per cubic inch as the bike in the other lane... and the exact amount of weight difference is decided by fiat...
4-valve Harley 640 pounds/160 cid. 4 lbs./cu. in.
4-valve Suzuki 595 lbs./ 101 cu. in. 5.89 lbs. cu. in.
That's a 47-percent disparity...
Let 'em all pull the same pounds per cubic inch and see who's "whining" then...
(Running a Harley in PSB makes about as much sense as running a Ford Flathead in Pro Stock.)
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Sean D, shondoo
Nitro Member
This has just about got to be the most on-the-mark comment in this entire thread.
Sean D
amanda Speed
Nitro Member
4g63rwd
Nitro Member
Using the "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" idea; could someone tell me where it benefits Harley-Davidson by running a combination on the race bikes that can't be bought on the open market? There's no such a thing as a "standard" street version Harley-Davidson with a 4 valve head, is there? Where is Harley making their money on their products if we can't purchase what we see on the track, despite what it might cost??
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riceburner
Nitro Member
The V-Rod is a 4 valve cylinder head design. If anything the changes that were made over the winter to the V and H entries made them more like the bikes that are offered for sale on the show room floor.
It's the same reason that GM never considered killing the Corvette even when faced with bankrupcy - it provides a halo effect to the entire company and also to GM itself.
I would bet big money that 75% of the H-D buyers in the last 5 or 10 years truly believe they are operating one of the most powerful motorcycles in existence. Harley wants to keep that image going.
Bill made a classic comment regarding a Pro Stock flathead. I watched a H-D Destroyer make a series of passes on a cool evening night. That's their limited production, turn key drag race bike. It's equipped with wheelie bars, ignition kill and everything else that's needed to race in competition. It is miles away from being street legal. The times? How about an 11.30?
When you see the competition's bone stock 600 cc bikes running deep into the 10s the problem is obvious. A top of the line Suzuki or Kawasaki can run in the 9s all day long, and for the same amount a Destroyer costs would be in the low eights or quicker.
At one time the process was for a manufacturer to study the rules and then strut their engineering knowhow to produce a better product. We've moved to the point that the companies are expecting rules to be changed so as to make their product a winner even if it was born as a shiny, polished, aluminum turd.
I truly have mixed emotions on this issue. I am very much a Buy American person, but I also value technology over all. And I truly believe that if Harley-Davidson hadn't entered the class when it did, Pro Stock Motorcycle would have been history by now.
I wish I knew the answer.
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