Pro Stock Question ? (1 Viewer)

[jpee]

The way NHRA is running PS now most cars are "Cookie Cutters" or almost the exact same.. of course each engine builder has his heads, cam, etc... but NHRA even has a limit as to how much a wrist pin can weigh... What I'm asking would it be be better or worse for PS if the following rules were implemented? Of course there may have to be some rule changes but here its my thoughts on a starting set up..

1. All cars must weigh 2150 (or whatever is agreed on)
2. 500 Ci engine block must be the same as the body, and run on gas supplied by NHRA. No power adders i.e. NO2, turbo, etc.
3. No Electronics i.e. traction control, shocks, or delay box...
NO other engine restrictions.. so if an engine builder wants a 4 or 5 valve head or run fuel injection let him have it..(same as Comp eliminator) as long as the CI is 500 any bore & stroke combination, that = 500 ci or less...

 

["Dr. Dirt"]

Ken Black fan huh?
One of the major reasons for the myriad of rules in PS is the cost.
Unobtainium isn't cheap but it's sure lighter, stronger and only available to those who've sold their huge corporations.

 

[HEMI6point1]

I have heard the reason why fuel injection is not allowed in PS is because of a A) cost and B) It would make it easier to cheat.

 

[Ken]

I'd rather Pro Stock run A/SM rules. At least they look like something I could buy at the dealer.They're expensive to buy I know, but at least they'd be less expensive to race (maybe). Or.....Do away with the current PS class. Let the current PS guys switch to nitrous since that's basically what they've become anyhow (I know, nobody ever ran nitrous). Let current PS cars run nitrous and 800ci engines. Then keep pro mod for supercharged and turbo cars.That way PS becomes interesting again and pro mod gets the old "gasser" look (well sort of).

Then again, those fourth of July party beverages may be taking over my thought process.

 

[jpee]

Both of you guys mention cost... YES I agree its expensive.. but do you think the cost of Unobtainium is gonna shut down many "competitive PS teams.. as it is now there are 6-8 that never qualify as it is.. suppose one of the low buck teams gets some "genius" that develops 4 valve heads that get 20 more HP then the few weight savings by using exotic material by the big buck teams wont matter as much..
As for cheating, by using FI .... I don't buy that as there are allegations of traction control etc. now & NHRA has NEVER found anything.. Back in the days of NO2 did NHRA ever find it... nooooo it took an explosion in the pits ...and we all know the Dodge boys never used it.. it was a B&E that shut them down
Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable than I can explain how FI will promote cheating... if its electronic FI so what ? If teams are using traction control NOW.. NHRA sure hasn't found it.. what benefit would a team using FI have.. I "thought" one of the PS teams tried FI on the dyno a few yrs ago and could not make as much HP as carb engines?

 

["Dr. Dirt"]

. . . If teams are using traction control NOW.. NHRA sure hasn't found it..

Carefully study the past 5 years' PS rule changes and you may discover that many of these rules implemented indicated that the NHRA did, in fact, find traction control or at least some device or combination of equipment that could be used to achieve it.

 

[nick name]

Carefully study the past 5 years' PS rule changes and you may discover that many of these rules implemented indicated that the NHRA did, in fact, find traction control or at least some device or combination of equipment that could be used to achieve it.

A system could have been legally installed on a car as early as the mid 90s if you look at the rules and the available technology. I have never heard from any credible source that one was ever used.

A problem I ran into in the past and which is still present in 95% of professional drag racing pits is that everyone seems to have tunnel vision. There is some amazing technology out there, but it's unknown (or not being used) in drag racing.

Greg Anderson took the first step by leveraging NASCAR technology where it was useful. I'm not aware that anyone has stepped outside the racing venue for new materials or ideas. The pace of R&D that it takes to stay competitve makes it very hard for the usual suspects to have the time to find, verify, and test anything really new.

Fact: a division of NASA exists solely to help companies apply the extremely high technology developed by the space program. A team is going to have to have someone with a creative mind if they expect to connect the dots, as some of the advances don't show an apparent link to vehicle performance.

It all comes down to intent. Is Pro Stock a class of unlimited technology or is it a class of reasonably afforable technology? As in Top Fuel, that decision was made years ago.

 

[none]

The way NHRA is running PS now most cars are "Cookie Cutters" or almost the exact same.. of course each engine builder has his heads, cam, etc... but NHRA even has a limit as to how much a wrist pin can weigh... What I'm asking would it be be better or worse for PS if the following rules were implemented? Of course there may have to be some rule changes but here its my thoughts on a starting set up..

1. All cars must weigh 2150 (or whatever is agreed on)
2. 500 Ci engine block must be the same as the body, and run on gas supplied by NHRA. No power adders i.e. NO2, turbo, etc.
3. No Electronics i.e. traction control, shocks, or delay box...
NO other engine restrictions.. so if an engine builder wants a 4 or 5 valve head or run fuel injection let him have it..(same as Comp eliminator) as long as the CI is 500 any bore & stroke combination, that = 500 ci or less...

I am quite sure they would all be 4 valve per cyl. Double overhead cam. The owners would likely save enough money in valve springs to pay for the new DOHC setup.

 

[Bobby Hill]

The RD cost to get a comparative cam and valve design would greatly out weigh the benefit of saving springs... $$imho$$

Michael

 

[Just Paul]

I know...

Stretch the wheelbase a little bit.
Open up the body rules to allow old body styles.
Let them run big wings, or mini fueler wings.
Let them run a blower.
Zoomies out the side.


You know..something like this

Maybe this way there will be no more traffic jam in the stands going down after the fuel cars run.

 

[chop]

When you have access to more than adequate funding coupled with access to NASCAR type engineers which Jason Line does,it will get you ahead of the pack. If there was a way to prove performance versus money spent,it would follow the current points standings very closely. There would probally be a couple of exceptions but it would be close.

 

[headporter]

The problem with all your mentioned changes. It goes back to one thing..

people WERE in fact running Nos and won races for a few years. Besides the ones everyone talks about. One other MEGA Dude even ran a SMALL amount of Nitro, mixed in with the OIL. When he got caught they asked he to take a hike for a Year. But because he had a High profile money. They let him run the Circus for a year with out making the show. Just so the company didn't ruin the wallets of glendora. Traction control was used when a drivers car made a spectical out of gear changes, when the in car cam show his hands not to be Hitting the Buttons.. Hence no more air shifters. which also ment one less place for a Leaky nos line to be fed into some where. oh and gee wiz the fuel cells being put in front of the car, is an added HINT the fuel lines in the car had problems as well. Shocks were tied into the ING. box to retard timing when they rebounded in an uncontroled manor. IE tire shake. ok now if you remember when jonh force was kicking ASS once right on TV his all but removed his fire suit. And proudly said Wow I won and all without a NOS bottle hidden in my fire suit..

hmmmmm I am sure if I think about this a tad more, I can enlighten you more.

So getting back to the basics.

They can NOT Police EVERYTHING or the cars would take a half a day to make 1 Round due to Inspection. The other thing is the way the rules are now. Is so the teams are not beign forced to Play XBOX, and realy jack up the price of the cars even more them they are now.

Like the Fuel cars if they want to Slow them down.. REMOVE the DATA box from the car on Sundays and see what that does.. Let the CRYING begin.. you will see an instant jump in the fun meter for the fans. Not knowing who is going to win.

Sure what your saying about 4v dhc heads and all the rest might make more power BUT... try changing 4-6 some times more valve springs on a 500 cu now.. no big deal.. try it on a DHC head.. haha see you tomorrow because you will be changing springs in time for 3rd round NOT 75 minutes.. but least you forget.. PS cars have a Less then 75 turn time for the Final because they get run First..

Good luck with your thought process on your new rules.

 

[Mooseman]

I am quite sure they would all be 4 valve per cyl. Double overhead cam. The owners would likely save enough money in valve springs to pay for the new DOHC setup.

You mean like this

 

[Mooseman]

 

[john]

Do you know what Bill France said when he saw that thing William?

 

[BlueStangGT]

I'd like to see PS go to roughly PST displacement (350-ish), allow EFI, and be considerably more strict as to body dimensions. You could have actual over-the-counter blocks and heads being used in everything from small-block pushrod and / or modular Ford, Chrysler Hemi, and GM LS1 motors in cars that actually resemble what you see on the street. Heck I wouldn't mind limiting the chassis to back-half cars only, in fact I think that would be awesome!

I just tore down a Ford 4.6 DOHC (4-valve) motor and there are a TON of pieces to the timing systems. You can pull the cam covers easily enough for access to the lifters and cam followers but the actual between-rounds adjustment would certainly take a little longer. I doubt the Ford 4-valve stuff would be allowed anyway, the GM and Chrysler camps would be at a severe disadvantage with their respective 2-valve configs. Heaven forbid Ford ever get a leg up in NHRA competition.

 

[nick name]

I'd like to see PS go to roughly PST displacement (350-ish), allow EFI, and be considerably more strict as to body dimensions. You could have actual over-the-counter blocks and heads being used in everything from small-block pushrod and / or modular Ford, Chrysler Hemi, and GM LS1 motors in cars that actually resemble what you see on the street. Heck I wouldn't mind limiting the chassis to back-half cars only, in fact I think that would be awesome!

I don't know if I'd go as far as limiting to a back half car, but I'm pretty much with you on the rest. The step away from reality in PS was a gradual thing, so there wasn't a bunch of bitching as we took each step into never-never land.

From my often faulty memory, here's how we got to where we are with gasonline powered funny cars:

Jenkins and Nicholson lobby the NHRA for a stronger car with tubular front and rear components. Jenkins told me he was genuinely worried running the speeds with a unibody and roll bar. I don't blame him. This is the step I dislike the least as it wasn't necessarily a bad thing as long as the tubing had to fit under a more or less stock body.

Jump a decade or so as Mopar puts all its eggs in one basket - the K car platform. They quit building rear wheel drive cars. They apply for and get a rules change that allows them to stretch the front ends of cars in order to get a 500 inch V8 installed. The other manufacturers see the benefit of racing their smallest econo models and follow suit.

Non-Pontiac racers complain that the long nose of the Firebird has more overhang and an advantage in the lights. Everybody gets to stretch the car's nose out to the same dimension.

Pro Stock Truck racing starts and immediately Mopar is having a problem again. The Dakota is larger than an S-10 or Ranger. Of course, that's how the truck was marketed in the first place, as a mid size. NHRA gives in and allows them to build a scale replica. The horse is out of the barn and the concept crosses over the the PS cars.

PS rules required a stock steel roof and quarter panels. That gets weird when the new Camaros and Firebirds are introduced with plastic roofs on the production line. The sheet metal requirement is waived and we now have a Pro Stock car with no factory parts other than maybe the light capsules.

Larry Morgan (ain't he great?) strikes a blow for the original intent of the class and installs working headlights on his Camaro. The fans love it, but nobody follows suit in their quest to perfect the Junior Funnycar.

For a reason I still don't understand, NHRA mandates one piece front ends on PS cars. Along with that, they approve a very few composite or fiberglass bodies as being legal. Ostensibly it's to level the field and stop racers from tweaking the bodywork to gain an advantage. Hmm - I though that was the whole point.

So it's now 2007 and we have a version of IROC that nobody wants to talk about. The cars are a cartoon version of what's actually coming down the assembly line. It's no longer about which manufacturer's engineers can design the best car and more about aftermarket body companies being able to get something like the stock headlight and grille appearance.

Hey, call me resistant to change. I still think we've gone down the wrong path. It was a lot more fun when carefully choosing your body style for best advantage - and then finding a builder with the smarts to develop it even further - was the way PS worked.

 

[nitro-trucker]

Ken Black fan huh?
One of the major reasons for the myriad of rules in PS is the cost.
Unobtainium isn't cheap but it's sure lighter, stronger and only available to those who've sold their huge corporations.

Bobby if I remember, the SUMMIT cars didn't slow down when they put in the weight rules for the engines. Everyone else did, so your dislike for the KEN BLACK team means nothing to me

 

[Buzzz Miller]

SUMMIT cars didn't slow down . . . Everyone else did

I love blanket statements with absolutely no data to back them up. It is what Internet chatboards are all about.
Absolutely priceless. 45 or so cars all slowed down, but only two did not. That is good stuff!

*thinking about making that my new signature*

 

[stanman]

Dan Bennet...

GREAT POST! A fairly accurate detailing of how we got to where we are in Pro Stock.

I would contend that the cat was truly let out of the bag when NHRA allowed the first fully tubed chassis car that did not start with an original "body in white".

The Pro Stock Trucks were really the last bastion of "stock" in Pro Stock, you still had to use factory stamped exterior panels for roof, cab sides, and bed sides.

I can understand the aspect of having approved body manufactures (Five * Star) in an effort to standardize things for the tech inspectors. But NHRA went off the deep end by allowing the gross modification from a factory correct body.