Nitromater
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
NHRA , Were You Watching
- Thread starter FABMAN
- Start date
SundayNiagara
Nitro Member
FABMAN
Nitro Member
Enough What, the Sportsman Racers are the backbone of NHRA. I was talking to a friend that races in Top Sportsman about cost to participate for one race, the cost of re-certification I was shocked. I know this has been talked about in the past but sometimes rekindling the fire keeps people talking and might get to where maybe something will change. Look at TV deal the leaders are trying to be producers and instead have wasted tens of thousands of dollars . Purses are horrible but Clifford and Light still are making their uppers 6 figure salary every year, I guess that's Enough Already for them.
Frank Einstein
Nitro Member
And the music is just one note strummed over and over with a second note once in a great while. Cheap and it's gotten old fast. Well, that's all I got to gripe about.
If it weren't for all of the contingency stickers all over their cars, often way too much to appreciate the nice paint jobs and graphics that they have, They wouldn't make squat at a national event. The Sportsman racers would win more money at a Big Buck or Foot Brake, etc. race.
Jimbo
Nitro Member
Sometimes it's important to step back and take a good look at what's going here.
When fans show up at a drag race are they coming to see the racers or the staff of a sectioning body?
I think most of us can agree they are coming to watch the racers race.
In many other forms of sports from baseball, football, basketball, NASCAR, Indy Car and many other forms of sports the participants are paid to perform and yet in drag racing everyone is expected to show and pay their entry fees along with all the other fees and put on a show. Yes there is a pay day of sorts along with Contingency money but that is about it unless you are one of the lucky few who have big time sponsors behind you.
I wonder if football, baseball, basketball, NASCAR and Indy car drivers would show up for a race given the same option that drag racers have been given?
I believe the racers are what people are coming to see and yet they seem to be getting the short end of the stick on this deal.
Just my opinion.
Jim Hill
www.nostalgicracingdecals.com
When fans show up at a drag race are they coming to see the racers or the staff of a sectioning body?
I think most of us can agree they are coming to watch the racers race.
In many other forms of sports from baseball, football, basketball, NASCAR, Indy Car and many other forms of sports the participants are paid to perform and yet in drag racing everyone is expected to show and pay their entry fees along with all the other fees and put on a show. Yes there is a pay day of sorts along with Contingency money but that is about it unless you are one of the lucky few who have big time sponsors behind you.
I wonder if football, baseball, basketball, NASCAR and Indy car drivers would show up for a race given the same option that drag racers have been given?
I believe the racers are what people are coming to see and yet they seem to be getting the short end of the stick on this deal.
Just my opinion.
Jim Hill
www.nostalgicracingdecals.com
Sean D, shondoo
Nitro Member
Gordon
Nitro Member
This may be tough to hear, but here goes: If you're a sportsman racer, stop racing.
You can talk and talk and talk until the cows come home but the fact is you built a race car because you LOVE racing. And you need a place to race. It's simple supply & demand. If sportsman racers wanted to send a message, they'd simply stop showing up. Then and only then would track owners pay attention. Tracks don't make money on spectators for a sportsman event. When I worked at MIR (now MDIR) we had huge sportsman events that were well attended by racers, but the stands were empty. Don't like the price of a tech card, stop going... it'll come down.
You can talk and talk and talk until the cows come home but the fact is you built a race car because you LOVE racing. And you need a place to race. It's simple supply & demand. If sportsman racers wanted to send a message, they'd simply stop showing up. Then and only then would track owners pay attention. Tracks don't make money on spectators for a sportsman event. When I worked at MIR (now MDIR) we had huge sportsman events that were well attended by racers, but the stands were empty. Don't like the price of a tech card, stop going... it'll come down.
Justin@NRE
Nitro Member
The problem with NHRA is they operate differently then every other form of Pro Sports, including NASCAR, probably similar to IndyCar though. IndyCar has 4-5 extremely well funded teams, and the rest are there with a little bit of funding, but racing the big boys to try and make a name and the payouts are pretty similar to NHRA other than the Indy 500. NASCAR teams get an NHRA Season Championship Payout or more for winning a single race, even last place in a NASCAR race takes home more than a Nitro class winner in race purse payout. In NHRA, the better funded drivers will actually earn a paycheck, make a few bucks on merchandising. The difference in NHRA is how many drivers are actually guns for hire vs. own/tune/drivers? NHRA was started to give people a safe place to race, less about selling a show. NASCAR and Stick and Ball sports have always been about selling a show, they got corporate in a big way. Big money changed their world, really squeezed out the little guy, or squeezed the little guy into building a corporate empire to keep racing. We bitch now about how big money squeezes out the little guy, imagine costs going up 4-6x what they are now and you've got NASCAR.
The reality is that some people with a lot of money have an interest in motorsports. The other difference in NHRA vs other sports is I would be willing to bet NHRA performance and car counts would be pretty similar regardless of crowds or ability to sell. NHRA sells a show around people with disposable income and an expensive hobby. I don't know that you could say the same for other sports. For smaller teams, track payouts and race purses help perpetuate the car, offset some costs, but never will totally offset all costs. But now for the next problem... Stick and Ball Sports, you have a roster of 20-40 per team, two teams playing, 20,000+ fans showing up for a single event. So 80 participants, 20,000 fans x $40 average ticket price = $800,000. Let's say hard costs for the event before player salaries, plus your margin on tickets is $400,000... That leaves you $400,000 to split among the 80 participants, evenly is $5,000/each, Baseball, Basketball and Hockey where they play a ridiculous amount of games every season, that can add up. NASCAR - One Venue - Three classes of racing and qualifying as individual events. 42 cars x 3 races. 126 Entries. 5,000 tickets sold for qualifying @ $20($100,000). 10,000 tix for truck race @ $35($350,000), 30,000 tix for Nationwide race @ $45($1,350,000), 50,000 tix for Cup race @ $50($2,500,000). In tickets alone, you've sold $4,300,000 on a given weekend and had 3 individual races plus qualifying to sell. Lets say it costs you $3,000,000 to put on the race weekend with your margin included, that leaves $1,300,000 for race purse, which if you split evenly is just over $10,000 per participant.
Now, NHRA National Event or Divisional Event. Lets take Las Vegas 2.. 12 different classes, 331 individual entries, 90 of which are considered your highest level. 3 days of racing, 10,000 people per day, $45 tickets.. $1,350,000 in ticket sales. Let's say your costs of operation and the NHRA crew/equipment, plus a little margin is $650,000. $700,000, split equally among all entrants = $2114.80/each. But that's socialism, we can't evenly distribute wealth, we have to pay winners more, and we have to pay the faster classes more. Now take a Divisional race, like Vegas last weekend.. 400+ entries, maybe 5,000 people all weekend @ $20 ticket. $100,000 in front gate, probably going to cost you a minimum of $60,000 to put on the race with staff, track prep, etc.. $40,000 left to payout 400+ entries.
You want bigger payouts, put more butts in seats. More butts = more exposure for potential sponsors = more sponsors. However, if NASCAR and Formula 1 have taught us anything, the bigger the money gets around the sport, the more it begins to cost to run.
Jimbo
Nitro Member
Justin Jacobsen;
Your comment Now, NHRA National Event or Divisional Event. Lets take Las Vegas 2.. 12 different classes, 331 individual entries, 90 of which are considered your highest level. 3 days of racing, 10,000 people per day, $45 tickets.. $1,350,000 in ticket sales. Let's say your costs of operation and the NHRA crew/equipment, plus a little margin is $650,000. $700,000, split equally among all entrants = $2114.80/each. But that's socialism, we can't evenly distribute wealth, we have to pay winners more, and we have to pay the faster classes more. Now take a Divisional race, like Vegas last weekend.. 400+ entries, maybe 5,000 people all weekend @ $20 ticket. $100,000 in front gate, probably going to cost you a minimum of $60,000 to put on the race with staff, track prep, etc.. $40,000 left to payout 400+ entries.
I agree with your numbers and the total of $1,350.00 thousand dollars my point is people are coming because of the racers not the N.H.R.A. and their staff and just maybe it's time for the powers to be cut back on what only the winners get and spread the wealth a little more with ALL THE RACERS and not just the winners.
Jim Hill
www.nostalgicracingdecals.com
Your comment Now, NHRA National Event or Divisional Event. Lets take Las Vegas 2.. 12 different classes, 331 individual entries, 90 of which are considered your highest level. 3 days of racing, 10,000 people per day, $45 tickets.. $1,350,000 in ticket sales. Let's say your costs of operation and the NHRA crew/equipment, plus a little margin is $650,000. $700,000, split equally among all entrants = $2114.80/each. But that's socialism, we can't evenly distribute wealth, we have to pay winners more, and we have to pay the faster classes more. Now take a Divisional race, like Vegas last weekend.. 400+ entries, maybe 5,000 people all weekend @ $20 ticket. $100,000 in front gate, probably going to cost you a minimum of $60,000 to put on the race with staff, track prep, etc.. $40,000 left to payout 400+ entries.
I agree with your numbers and the total of $1,350.00 thousand dollars my point is people are coming because of the racers not the N.H.R.A. and their staff and just maybe it's time for the powers to be cut back on what only the winners get and spread the wealth a little more with ALL THE RACERS and not just the winners.
Jim Hill
www.nostalgicracingdecals.com
WB_Strip
Nitro Member
This don't hurt the pay out at Nascar races
But just a few days earlier, NASCAR announced part of a staggering television package — a jaw-dropping $8.2 billion, 10-year deal with NBC and Fox. For a sport supposedly on the decline, it had just attracted its biggest windfall
But just a few days earlier, NASCAR announced part of a staggering television package — a jaw-dropping $8.2 billion, 10-year deal with NBC and Fox. For a sport supposedly on the decline, it had just attracted its biggest windfall
Justin@NRE
Nitro Member
Like it or not, the staff and support crews are the reason the shows happen the way they do, and I'm talking ground level people. That's a big portion of the expense is crew and track prep and most of those people work for next to nothing. People are coming to see the racing and the cars, but the racing wouldn't happen in such spectacular fashion without the track crew. Now that being said, I do think the executive staff and board pat themselves on the back pretty heavily with salary/bonuses. If the top two salaries were cut in half, you could fund the Lucas Oil Series Championship fund. Good luck getting that to happen. BUT, if you're only in racing for the payouts, you need to choose another hobby. I could see spreading the wealth a little more from qualifying to winning, but you still need the bigger incentive to win, and if you look in a race payout, the difference between qualifying and winning, especially in sportsman at a national, is not that huge as our new president elect would say.
Justin@NRE
Nitro Member
Most sportsman/Pro Sportsman racers live on cold cuts and grilled burgers while at the track. They've had to figure out ways to cut costs where they can to keep racing. But at the same time, nobody holds a gun to a racer's head and forces them to buy a half million dollar rig, keep a crew of 10 people, go out to dinner every night, buy all the most expensive parts, etc... You race to the level you can afford. But when you've collectively sunk half a million dollars or better into your hobby that you know before you even got started won't come close to returning on your investment financially, you can't blame the people facilitating your addiction and giving you a safe place to go play with your expensive toy. No different than suing tobacco companies because you made the decision one day to take up smoking or chewing and now you can't quit when you knew it was addicting when you started.
Drag racing is a drug... NHRA/Sanctioning Bodies/Tracks are nothing but drug dealers. They make money off your addiction. The best I think you can honestly hope for is to qualify and get a little bit of money back to help offset your travel expense to get there. If you have delusions of making money or breaking even, you better get your nose to the grindstone to become the best driver/tuner in your class to get every winner's payout you can and feet on the ground, beating down doors looking for sponsors. Some people manage to do it, but they work tirelessly at their program and it becomes less hobby and more full-time job. Most don't want to work THAT hard at it since they already have a full time job to support their family/addiction and couldn't possibly meet all the obligations a big sponsorship typically comes with, especially with working on the car in all your free time, a family and regular bills to pay at home. That's why the big fuel team drivers usually get paid if they aren't renting their ride. They get sent all over the country to make appearances for sponsors. I can't tell you the number of times I've crossed paths with DSR drivers(typically Beckman, Capps, AB or Tony) in airports all over the country on non-race weeks and off-season where they are headed to an appearance or speaking engagement for a sponsor. Those guys have the benefit of not having to work on their cars too. On the non-pro side, lets use Kris and Kevin Hool as a prime example. Those guys have found a way to not only be consistent Top 10 finishers, but win the occasional National Event, and ran 17 races this year, with just the two of them handling everything with a little labor help from friends here and there. Not an easy feat in the 4th quickest/fastest class in NHRA by any means. AND they've managed to keep a full time primary sponsor and several associate sponsorships going for several years now. Most racers would quit if they had to work half as hard as the Hool brothers to keep their dream alive.
Why would they quit?!? Because drag racing is an incredibly humbling sport, especially the faster you go. Some people are able to keep things in perspective and still have fun no matter the success rate. Others fun level is directly proportionate to the success or failure rate. Why do I mention the level of fun? Because the second it isn't fun, you start to actually realize how much money you're spending and have spent to do it. Once that happens, your operation typically isn't much longer for the world. Drag racing is only next to baseball in what is considered successful. In drag racing, you're doing pretty well if you're batting .300 or better on your round win record. You're just utterly dominating your class if you're .500 or better. I think the best average I've seen to date in Top Alcohol was Jim Whiteley in TAD. Granted, I don't know Manzo's career stats, but I was told Jim Whiteley's TAD National Event round record was 152-47. That TAD won 76.4% of the time it came to the starting line at a national event. Lewis Bloom, anything to add?
Drag racing is a drug... NHRA/Sanctioning Bodies/Tracks are nothing but drug dealers. They make money off your addiction. The best I think you can honestly hope for is to qualify and get a little bit of money back to help offset your travel expense to get there. If you have delusions of making money or breaking even, you better get your nose to the grindstone to become the best driver/tuner in your class to get every winner's payout you can and feet on the ground, beating down doors looking for sponsors. Some people manage to do it, but they work tirelessly at their program and it becomes less hobby and more full-time job. Most don't want to work THAT hard at it since they already have a full time job to support their family/addiction and couldn't possibly meet all the obligations a big sponsorship typically comes with, especially with working on the car in all your free time, a family and regular bills to pay at home. That's why the big fuel team drivers usually get paid if they aren't renting their ride. They get sent all over the country to make appearances for sponsors. I can't tell you the number of times I've crossed paths with DSR drivers(typically Beckman, Capps, AB or Tony) in airports all over the country on non-race weeks and off-season where they are headed to an appearance or speaking engagement for a sponsor. Those guys have the benefit of not having to work on their cars too. On the non-pro side, lets use Kris and Kevin Hool as a prime example. Those guys have found a way to not only be consistent Top 10 finishers, but win the occasional National Event, and ran 17 races this year, with just the two of them handling everything with a little labor help from friends here and there. Not an easy feat in the 4th quickest/fastest class in NHRA by any means. AND they've managed to keep a full time primary sponsor and several associate sponsorships going for several years now. Most racers would quit if they had to work half as hard as the Hool brothers to keep their dream alive.
Why would they quit?!? Because drag racing is an incredibly humbling sport, especially the faster you go. Some people are able to keep things in perspective and still have fun no matter the success rate. Others fun level is directly proportionate to the success or failure rate. Why do I mention the level of fun? Because the second it isn't fun, you start to actually realize how much money you're spending and have spent to do it. Once that happens, your operation typically isn't much longer for the world. Drag racing is only next to baseball in what is considered successful. In drag racing, you're doing pretty well if you're batting .300 or better on your round win record. You're just utterly dominating your class if you're .500 or better. I think the best average I've seen to date in Top Alcohol was Jim Whiteley in TAD. Granted, I don't know Manzo's career stats, but I was told Jim Whiteley's TAD National Event round record was 152-47. That TAD won 76.4% of the time it came to the starting line at a national event. Lewis Bloom, anything to add?
Bob
Nitro Member
Justin, the most significant difference between drag racing and all of the other sports you mentioned is, the television networks pay for the broadcast rights. The NHRA pays the network to broadcast our sport. Another significant difference is, there are more sanctioning body licensed drivers in drag racing than in any other form of motorsports. The participation at the sportsman or entry level in drag racing blows all of the rest of them away. ...and an FYI, the Las Vegas divisional event last weekend had 836 entries!
Justin@NRE
Nitro Member
NHRA pays to broadcast because networks don't have a public or advertiser demand for it. That's the pure and simple truth. Why? Maybe because every county seat across the country has Baseball Fields, Basketball Courts, Football fields, AND a dirt circle track. NHRA has 121 member tracks across the country and Canada... There are over 700 dirt tracks across the US. There is no comparison in popularity, and mostly because its what people do or don't grow up with. The entire country grows up with stick and ball sports, and every kid has dreams of playing for their favorite pro team. Most counties in the US that went for Trump, kids grew up with weekly stock car races at their local track. Hell, the little town I'm from in Iowa had two dirt tracks running for a while in the 90's and early 2000's. Even if you didn't go to the races, everyone in a 10 mile radius could hear them. People who grow up watching cars go fast in circles are more likely to become fans of NASCAR.. Drag racing just doesn't have the same nationwide availability, and therefore popularity. And the opportunity to build more drag strips is less and less every year, and if anything, we're losing more and more of them to idiots that pitch a fit after they move in next to one.
cephus
Nitro Member
unfortunately the money is n bracket racing but its tough to swallow wen u got a 4:50 $50K car getting beat by a grocery getter 7:20 car and u like heads up going fast,, read about the latest Million at Mtg al won by a slow door car came in with a 1/2 ton pick-up truck pullin an open trailer that's real ROI !!
Justin@NRE
Nitro Member
I've seen guys go a lot more rounds in their pickup than in their race car at big bracket weekends. Truck may run 17's, but it's dead consistent.
