Toejam
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It probably won't require a rule change, the teams will make this change on their own!
Lets fix the problem with the wheels flying off... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Paul
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It probably won't require a rule change, the teams will make this change on their own!
FC138fan
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I posted this on the other thread, but saw this one going after the fact. I didn't get a chance to read through all these posts, so sorry if I repeat someone.
Saw this through the chat about the incident. I was thinking (tear me apart for not being a racer, not being part of the NHRA safety team, no credibility, whatever) that one single axle held at each end by one "beefy" bolt would be less likely to fail because of shear forces.
Shear = force divided by area. If the bolts fail at a shear force of "x" lb/sq-in, increase the area you get the ability to handle more shear.
Maybe make one solid thicker axle where the ends where the hub attaches would have a star shaped cross section. One single "beefier" bolt with more cross sectional area to work with.
purple = axle
white = single bolt
blue = axle end that fits on wheel hub
Saw this through the chat about the incident. I was thinking (tear me apart for not being a racer, not being part of the NHRA safety team, no credibility, whatever) that one single axle held at each end by one "beefy" bolt would be less likely to fail because of shear forces.
Shear = force divided by area. If the bolts fail at a shear force of "x" lb/sq-in, increase the area you get the ability to handle more shear.
Maybe make one solid thicker axle where the ends where the hub attaches would have a star shaped cross section. One single "beefier" bolt with more cross sectional area to work with.
purple = axle
white = single bolt
blue = axle end that fits on wheel hub
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n/a
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No, I never suggested drilling 5 more holes in the current hubs. I suggested like others that they be replaced with new, upgraded units.
I'd think that the possibility of preserving any human life (and antron's and others totaled race cars) is worth considerably more, than the monetary cost of newly required hubs and wheels!! Besides the current 5 lug stuff would trickle down the lower classes. Its not going to the junk pile.
I'll close by agreeing with this statement.
Larry Fulton
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The Counterfeiter
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Well, that's a noble thought, but economics is going to get in the way. If NHRA mandates new wheels and hubs, the costs would be huge. Many fuel teams are just making it from race to race. Who is going to pay for the R & D needed to produce these new parts? And . . . how are they going to be tested?
Finally, I'd like to hear from you on which "lower classes" can utilize fuel hubs and wheels and how much they can afford to pay to buy used parts.
hotrod
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I haven't owned a funny car since the late seventies so I'm a little behind the times, but don't the alcohol cars use the same wheels?
They wouldn't need to upgrade.
They wouldn't need to upgrade.
Super Mod
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Lanny M at DSR is probably making a machine to simulate tire shake and will have the answer by the end of the week
The Counterfeiter
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Lanny M at DSR is probably making a machine to simulate tire shake and will have the answer by the end of the week
I believe Lanny is currently employed by JFR. And, as far as alky cars using the same wheels as fuelers, they probably already have wheels and don't need to buy used ones from fuel teams.
john
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Like everything else in drag racing, the current design has met its limit. Money is not going to stop them, too much more at stake. Expect to see big changes in the hub and wheel area soon. It may look like something off an earth mover (in alloys ) when they are done with it, but the guys that do this for a living will fix it. You can rest assured that will happen. And when they are done, they will push the cars quicker and faster and find the next weak link. This process will continue unchanged as it has since the beginning.
) when they are done with it, but the guys that do this for a living will fix it. You can rest assured that will happen. And when they are done, they will push the cars quicker and faster and find the next weak link. This process will continue unchanged as it has since the beginning.S&M
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I am not a racer, I am a fan.
From watching the video of wheel coming off, several times, it appears to me that this would have been just another racing incident had the car not made a hard left turn. If the car had not turned left the wheel would have stayed on the track.
When a wheel comes off or a tire blows, the frame drops to the track & the car becomes undrivable.
Since I see no way to guarantee that a wheel will never come off or tire blow out.
A simple fix would be to come up with a design of some kind to keep the frame from hitting the track, allowing the car to remain drivable.
I could see this being done by widening the willy bar & adding larger wheels, or adding a secondary set of wheels behind the slicks. I would think that wheels the size of the small front wheels that were used on top fuel dragsters several years ago would work.
To me this wold be a low cost fix.
I know, I am crazy.
From watching the video of wheel coming off, several times, it appears to me that this would have been just another racing incident had the car not made a hard left turn. If the car had not turned left the wheel would have stayed on the track.
When a wheel comes off or a tire blows, the frame drops to the track & the car becomes undrivable.
Since I see no way to guarantee that a wheel will never come off or tire blow out.
A simple fix would be to come up with a design of some kind to keep the frame from hitting the track, allowing the car to remain drivable.
I could see this being done by widening the willy bar & adding larger wheels, or adding a secondary set of wheels behind the slicks. I would think that wheels the size of the small front wheels that were used on top fuel dragsters several years ago would work.
To me this wold be a low cost fix.
I know, I am crazy.
Draw 3D
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They are also going to need drive axles.
Any testing would need to have SFI involved because they currently create the specification for wheels, SFI 15.3.
FC138fan
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How much does a set of rims, new axle and new hub cost? Is this not a one time cost?
How much does an entire vehicle cost when the old setup fails (ask Don S. and Tim W.)
Testing, why not set up a contract with some manufacturer who would pay for testing. If your going to do that, why not do a complete re-design to handle anything a fuel car could throw at it. Maybe the person who first put 5 studs or whatever on a fuel car didn't intend them to work with the modern vehicle.
If you want to run a fuel car *competitively in the NHRA I would think you better have deep pockets, and with all the other costs I would think a new rear end wouldn't break you.
How much does an entire vehicle cost when the old setup fails (ask Don S. and Tim W.)
Testing, why not set up a contract with some manufacturer who would pay for testing. If your going to do that, why not do a complete re-design to handle anything a fuel car could throw at it. Maybe the person who first put 5 studs or whatever on a fuel car didn't intend them to work with the modern vehicle.
If you want to run a fuel car *competitively in the NHRA I would think you better have deep pockets, and with all the other costs I would think a new rear end wouldn't break you.
Gary H
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In the end, there will always be a weak point that will break. Wheel studs, wheel itself or the tire.
n/a
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"Economics"... there's no economics when it comes to Drag Racing!
Everyone that can, will spend whatever it takes to be the quickest, or the fastest in their class. Hell man, you've got guys out here racing 'Stockers' that are $100,000 to construct.
If the rules and the regulators don't keep things in line, then the whole sport goes out of control, and it becomes the cubic money arena it is.
OK, so your right! Nobody wants the hand me down parts.
So here's my suggestion... throw it all in a pile and walk away from it to start over.
The bottom line fact is, the fuel cars are just to powerful, and to violent to continue to use the parts and pieces that are currently available. So you either have to reel back that power (which nobody wants to do) or you continue to fix / upgrade the weak links.
MR.Young your 1,456 posts here is very impressive.
I'm sure you are as passionate about drag racing as I'm, but don't make this into a personal attack on me or my opinions. We all want the same thing... we want drag racing to continue.
Larry Fulton
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When did you hear of a team sitting out because of an oildown fine when NHRA was charging $2500
All of the new updates that were mandatory this year another $5000-$10,000
And most teams are still racing in a horrific economic climate.
So far the cost to "fix" or upgrade this problem has cost a women her life.
IMHO, I think that cost was to great for all who love the sport.
Fire when ready, the pins are pulled
All of the new updates that were mandatory this year another $5000-$10,000
And most teams are still racing in a horrific economic climate.
So far the cost to "fix" or upgrade this problem has cost a women her life.
IMHO, I think that cost was to great for all who love the sport.
Fire when ready, the pins are pulled
Most of this talk is just silly. 99% of what's going on behind the scenes will never be known.
Just some things to think about.
If you mandate a larger bolt pattern, more bolts, or both, then you obviously would have new hubs. Well guess what mounts to those hubs. BRAKES!
So you'd be asking all of the brake manufactures, wheel manufactures, rear end manufactures to redesign everything. You realize that takes time, and a TON of money. All existing hardware, tooling, stock, would be scrap.
And it's really weird to me that most people cast off so effortlessly the notion that this is an issue that is isolated to a certain manufacture. Do the math, who's rear end's/hubs have been failing? Don't recite the excuses given publicly, just add it up. Wheels flying off vs. manufacture of rearend/hub assemblies.
It is all from a blind allegiance to a certain brand?
It's not the bolt's fault, nor the guy turning the wrench.
Business is booming for a few.
Just some things to think about.
If you mandate a larger bolt pattern, more bolts, or both, then you obviously would have new hubs. Well guess what mounts to those hubs. BRAKES!
So you'd be asking all of the brake manufactures, wheel manufactures, rear end manufactures to redesign everything. You realize that takes time, and a TON of money. All existing hardware, tooling, stock, would be scrap.
And it's really weird to me that most people cast off so effortlessly the notion that this is an issue that is isolated to a certain manufacture. Do the math, who's rear end's/hubs have been failing? Don't recite the excuses given publicly, just add it up. Wheels flying off vs. manufacture of rearend/hub assemblies.
It is all from a blind allegiance to a certain brand?
It's not the bolt's fault, nor the guy turning the wrench.
Business is booming for a few.
Super Mod
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Sounds like it's down to the studs to me.......material and replacement schedules.
TIM GIBSON SAYS:
“The first thing I would like to see the NHRA do is to have periodic inspections of critical drive line components,” said Gibson, who has run his Gibson Racing Wheels business in Huntington Beach, Calif., the past two years. “There also has to be some way to keep track of how long those parts get used. You can’t have parts that will last forever on a Top Fuel car.”
Gibson believes the NHRA should implement new safety checks and balances system with regard to some of the equipment on Top Fuel cars.
“The fix is so simple, they (NHRA) just need to have some inspection method to not allow worn out parts on Fuel cars,” Gibson said. “In my opinion, parts like that (bolts) ought to be dated, and (show) the last time they’ve were inspected. I’m not saying it is any body's fault, but you can’t run parts forever in fuel cars. The tire shake thing is seriously dangerous, and in my opinion, I don’t know if there’s any way to protect yourself if you’re in a tire shake and you decide to stay in it. The car is just going to fall apart around you. Unless you’ve experienced it (a tire shake), you just can’t imagine how violent it is.”
Gibson also thinks more vigorous tech inspections might be part of a safer solution.
“A clutch can, for example, has a date on it and it tells you that it was inspected a year ago, or whatever,” Gibson said. “I think all the critical drive line components need to be in that category, so you know that they’re not 20 years old.”
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We went through nearly three decades without any serious incidents but during that time the cars evolved into what they are today. As a result, we have a class nearly on life support, 1000 feet racing, on track and now off track catastrophies, and burdening cost that few can afford. Cure it all by taking horsepower away from the fuel cars so it's enjoyable again. The spec engine has been developed and tested. Start using it...now!
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The Counterfeiter
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Larry - I'm not attacking you, just asking some difficult questions. You are EXACTLY correct in stating that "Everyone that can" will spend whatever it takes. Unfortunately, that pretty much boils down to DSR and JFR.
Chris (welcome!) correctly stated that new bolt pattern or more studs will require a complete redesign of all drive components at a huge cost of time and money. And . . . Al's suggestion of tethers through the axle linking the wheels was well ahead of the announcement that Medlin (JFR) and Beard (DSR) are working on similar ideas. There are Maters who grasp the severity of this crisis and the fact that it has to be solved quickly without forcing a number of competitors who are just barely making it to events out of competition.
The Mater's a cool place - we can agree to disagree! -
