Lets fix the problem with the wheels flying off... (1 Viewer)

[Johnny Ringo]

Having most likely "been there, done that" while Bruce was still diapers, I can assure you that the racers have corrected more problems on their own than tech inspectors have to date. Bruce....cover your mouth while yawning! LOL

 

[Jeff]

I side with the racers fixing most problems, government (be it Obama or SFI or XHRA techs) has its place but it is not the primary solution to many problems.

I don't own a full floating rear end, so I don't know the exact set up, but has it been confirmed that the wheel studs are/were the weak link and that they sheared off on both sides?

Is it possible that something broke internal to the rear end and the mass/momentum of the rear wheels (and car) firmly stuck to a very good track caused the wheel studs to shear as the internal rotation came to a sudden stop?

Should there be an artificial weak link inserted somewhere upstream of the wheels such that this type of failure doesn't cause a total loss of control of the vehicle?

I too bore of the emotional bashing, I like to read the stuff where smart people (often times those directly in "the know") teach us . . . and I'm sorry if I missed some content in this thread trying to skim past the less technical opinion.

 

[Paul]

The full story of why the wheels came off, or Scott's accident, or why Force's team chassis were breaking when no one else's were, will probably never be made public.

Virgil, I'm confused on why you feel this kind of secrecy is a good way to handle situations like this. Why wouldn't you want spectators, other racers, potential sponsors, etc. to know what steps are being taken to make sure something like this doesn't happen again?

In addition, this kind of information makes racing safer across the board if other sportsman chassis builders and parts suppliers can make use of it to build stronger chassis and better parts.

I don't see any reason for the secrecy, so if I'm missing something, please fill me in.

 

[willy]

Bruce, I've been a mechanical designer since 1972.

I happen to think Paul is making some genuinely valid points.

I think your rather sarcastic "blow off" of his post is somewhat insulting.

I happen to think he's made some good observations and points in his posts. Why are you so dismissive of them????

is this personal, or what????

I'm just asking.......

I see the same thing, David. Starts out with a yawn..then gives good input..then an "ok..if you say so". Paul makes valid points, Bruce..and Nancy had a valid point in her post..by the way. Maybe a little educational input would help..and you're in the know, right? Provide a little more insight please. You've provided excellent, inside, commentary..but it would be nice to see a little consistency..you've been all over the map here.

Thanks Virgil for your input..and I'm with Paul..why would there be any secrecy in the advancement of something safety? That makes it all look good doesn't it? Teams discovering and fixing?

 

[yoda]

 

[handsome]

the yawn was for all the upcoming ideas that everyone has to express before they think that racers and teams were actually looking into these problems.

 

[Silly Savage]

John Q Public is not entitled to know details about what is going on behind the scenes with professional teams or organizations. If and when they determine what caused the issues, they go to the MFG and if it is found to be a faulty item, it is addressed. If it is something caused because a teamed modified an item, it will be addressed with that team. When something like this happens, it doesn't automatically mean that EVERY wheel stud is bad out there. The studs used on a blown fuel car are not the same as the ones on a 12 second door slammer. Everything is relative. By the way, did anyone actually say that it was in fact the studs that broke and not the hub area of the wheel or a floater failure or a housing issue? I am sure when Dejora went into the nets at Englishtown, most specators spouted off that the chutes failed when in was acutally the rear end housing.

 

[Paul]

John Q Public is not entitled to know details about what is going on behind the scenes with professional teams or organizations.

JR, I'm going to have to differ with you on this one, when public safety is involved, and in this case it is, its foolish for the NHRA not to let the public know what happened and that they are takings steps to make sure this doesn't happen again.

Even when public safety isn't involved, its generally best to be open with situations like this. When the space shuttle's fuel tank exploded, do think it would have been best if NASA just handled it internally without telling the public what had happened and what they were doing to prevent it from happening again?

I guess if the NHRA had a reputation of really having their act together and being right on top of every part of their business, maybe I could take the "just keep your mouth shut and let them handle it" suggestions, but I'm light years away from feeling that way about it.

 

[Silly Savage]

JR, I'm going to have to differ with you on this one, when public safety is involved, and in this case it is, its foolish for the NHRA not to let the public know what happened and that they are takings steps to make sure this doesn't happen again.

So when Dixon crashed at Memphis a few years back and one of the tires/wheels landed out in the parking area, do you recall anyone having to explain THAT to the public.

Even when public safety isn't involved, its generally best to be open with situations like this. When the space shuttle's fuel tank exploded, do think it would have been best if NASA just handled it internally without telling the public what had happened and what they were doing to prevent it from happening again?

Comparing NHRA to NASA is ridiculous.....

I guess if the NHRA had a reputation of really having their act together and being right on top of every part of their business, maybe I could take the "just keep your mouth shut and let them handle it" suggestions, but I'm light years away from feeling that way about it.

Then why don't you take your ass over to Glendora and fill out an application...you'd fit right in over there....

 

[Paul]

So when Dixon crashed at Memphis a few years back and one of the tires/wheels landed out in the parking area, do you recall anyone having to explain THAT to the public.

JR, now I'm really confused, this is an example of how you think it should be handled, but you think I'm the one that should go to Glendora?

I'm also a little confused about your tone also as in telling me to "take my ass" to any particular place.

I don't have any axes to grind here other than being concerned about seeing another young promising driver get hurt, and I don't think I've been disrespectful to anyone in communicating my opinions.

So if you think I deserve instructions on what to do with any particular part of my anatomy, you should make it clearer why you think that is warranted.

 

[FC138fan]

And as far as engineers, we lost two front wheels at national events (one on each car) due to an engineer's design of a front spindle made mandatory by NHRA to replace our aluminum spindles that he said was not strong enough. Our aluminum spindles would bend (we bent several) but did not break (never broke one). His design would not bend and broke quickly.

Racers are street smart, when they see a weak link they come up with quick and inexpensive ways to fix the problem. Race cars are going as quick and as fast as they are because of the inginuity of the racers willing to try new things, seldom by the input of outside engineers.

I would think with the technology, power, and speeds of the past that "quick and inexpensive" way to fix the problem worked fine.

When you take a look at the power and energy involved today with taking these lightweight cars and accelerating them that fast that quickly I think you start to find that you will need "engineers" to come in and take a look at the problems that start to occur.

DISCLAIMER - I say "engineers" because I think racers are engineers as well. Expierence in some cases is worth just as much as education.

But the "engineer" I am referring to is the guy (or girl) who is not a racer, but the guy (or girl) who has studied metallurgy all through college, or has learned all about aerodynamics in a lab. Or the person who developed how to bond those Goodyears to the track better, or keep them from flying apart at high speed.

A simple fix such as make the studs bigger might work, but maybe an engineer should take a look at it, study the problem, develop a solution, look at the consequences to the rest of the car, then propose the solution. "Engineers" have the analytical skills that should be seen as a benefit to drag racers. Who knows maybe the problem isn't common sence, maybe some new lug nut grease is causing a chemical reaction that dissolves the threads on a microscopic level that caused the wheels to fly off...

- Can you tell I'm an engineer?

 

[Bobby Bennett]

Here's the latest ...

NO QUICK ANSWERS AFTER D-WILK?S CRASH

 

[Treeshaker]

Virgil, I'm confused on why you feel this kind of secrecy is a good way to handle situations like this. Why wouldn't you want spectators, other racers, potential sponsors, etc. to know what steps are being taken to make sure something like this doesn't happen again?

In addition, this kind of information makes racing safer across the board if other sportsman chassis builders and parts suppliers can make use of it to build stronger chassis and better parts.

I don't see any reason for the secrecy, so if I'm missing something, please fill me in.

These situations and the reason they occur are far from kept secret, but I see no reason to make a public statement about every detail that took place.
Even though it was reported that Daniel said he watched his crew torque the rear wheels, it has been assumed by many in this thread that the cause was the lug nuts were not torqued.

What is the benefit of public statements and opening a subject to public debate if the debaters do not want to bother with learning and understanding the facts and information given? What gives someone the right to express an opinion on someone else's program when they are unwilling to research the available information and take the time to formulate and express a valid solution?

Rest assured that the rear end and stud manufacturers, wheel manufacturers, chassis builders and participants who use these items have gathered the facts and information known and have made adjustments based on their knowledge to keep this situation from happening to them or their products. Besides the safety aspect for the driver, other participants and spectators, there was a very large monetary loss suffered by the team. As a participant, would you let this go unsolved? Would you wait for outside sources to give you a solution to the problem?

 

[DrRocket]

Here's the latest ...

NO QUICK ANSWERS AFTER D-WILK?S CRASH

A great piece, Bobby. Thanks for posting it.

That one picture really gets me: "I'm Ok, really, I'm OK.........."

And thank you, Virgil, for all of your input. It's greatly appreciated by us here on the Mater.....

 

[topfuel]

You can't go 'budget' on some items, especially when they are engineered wrong.

 

[Jake]

You can make this sport as safe as HUMANLY possible but you CANNOT fix this or any problem with 100% certainty that it won't happen again.

 

[Paul]

Here's what Tim Wilkerson said from the link above:

“I really don’t have an idea,” said Wilkerson, who was working Wednesday afternoon in preparation for this weekend’s NHRA Virginia Nationals. “With these back to back races, I barely have time to do anything. I have already talked to Stange, and he wants the wheels and the hubs.

“It’s hard to say [what happened] because other teams have broken studs from time to time. It happens from time to time, but that was pretty bizarre right there. We need to make sure that doesn’t happen anymore."

This makes a couple of clear points. Expecting the racers themselves to solve this problem, with all they have on their plates, is clearly not the most expedient way to fix this problem.

Sending them to the manufacturer is a step in the right direction, but to be fully candid, manufacturers have forces pulling on them from a lot of different directions, and while they can add a lot to fixing a safety issue like this you also need an independent party who purely has the racers best interests at heart making sure the best decisions are being made.

The NHRA should definitely have a safety head that actively performs this kind of function, and if they had that we wouldn't have seen this problem occur again.

Jared, your comment that-

You can make this sport as safe as HUMANLY possible but you CANNOT fix this or any problem with 100% certainty that it won't happen again.

is a good one, but this one of the cases were with a little effort we can make it very unlikely that we ever have wheel stud failures again.

Now that its pretty clear that the wheel studs failed, here's the 3 likely scenerios for the failures, and how they can be fixed.

Catastrophic Failure - this happens when a metal part is flat just not strong enough for its load, so even a brand new one can fail.

If this is the case, either the studs need to be made bigger or of a stronger material, or moved to a larger radius so they have less shear load.

Fatigue Related Failure - a metal part that is strong enough to take its basic max loads can still fail over time from fatique cracks that occur from the loads being repeatedly applied and released.

If this is the case, require that the studs be periodically replaced or magnafluxed for cracks. This is standard procedure in NASCAR, with the crew chief being required to sign off that this has been done.

Undertorquing - as was described by Strange in the linked article, an undertorqued fastener is subject to much higher loads than normal.

In any case, even if this wasn't the cause for this failure, I think NHRA should be doing spot checks on wheel torques in the staging lanes as even the strongest studs will be in trouble if wheels aren't torqued right.

These fixes just aren't that bad, and if put in place this problem would likely never occur again.

 

[scooter]

How about this:

To Arend, Schu, Virgil, etc- those of you with a hand deep in the game with a Nitro car-

Did you get any memo from ANYBODY telling you to look at your car's wheel studs AFTER Toliver's incident, with either results of the incident, or a spec that the association is looking for before you pull it to the lanes?

How about this week?

Nothing against you Martin but I`m thinking if you need a memo telling you to check a specific part after a well publicized accident pertaining to that part, Uuuummm maybe you dont need to be running this type of race car. Or maybe asking for a memo is the "someone else will think for me and therefore I have no further responsibility in the matter" mentality.

 

[Speed1288]

Has anyone thought of wheel tethers to prevent them from flying down the track? Or would that just cause more damage to the car?

 

[Paul]

Has anyone thought of wheel tethers to prevent them from flying down the track? Or would that just cause more damage to the car?

Ken, tethers have worked in other motorsports, but even I (as an admitted safety fanatic) think they would be overkill in this situation.

I think the steps I outlined above would fix the problem, we just need someone actively overseeing the situation and putting the steps in place, although I'm worried about this as I don't see that active guy currently in place in the NHRA.

Based on what comes out of the parts failure analysis, its possible that the staging wheel torque spot check is all that needs to be done.

Going back to some previous opinions, I think it would be counter to everyones best interest in this situation if the results of the analysis are kept secret, I don't see how that helps anybody.