Is Pontiac going.... Now what? (1 Viewer)

[Jenn]

If I had to choose the GMC just looks better.

<gasp> I can't believe I'm hearing that from YOU!

 

[HEMI6point1]

<gasp> I can't believe I'm hearing that from YOU!

Well, I don't like the front styling of the new Silverados. The GMC is a lot nicer IMO. Only downside to both is the max gear ratio is 3.73 even on the duallie's, where as the Ford Super Duty's are available with 4.30's.

BTW the Denali line is considered by many to be "an Escalade on sale." A loaded Yukon XL Denali is close to $63K while the Escalade ESV is nearly $74K. You can use the money saved for mods like a supercharger.

 

[vegasnitro]

Resulting in the average assembly line worker continuing to make $75/hr while the rest of us pay for the bailout.

Jim, I don't know where you got that number, but it is WAYYY off. I have 2 VERY good friends that I went to high school with in Kentucky that work at the largest plant in the world, the Ford Kentucky Truck Assembly plant where they build everything from F250s/350s all the way up to the big rigs. We graduated in '92, they started at Ford in '93 and they make ~$28/hr. They are both in the UAW (obviously). They started at $19/hr in '93. Line supervisors make in the $40-42/hr range, but my friends are WAY down the seniority list for that type of promotion, even with 15 years in. With the recent economic downturn, they have been laid off for the most part since March, but with their UAW contract, they still draw 75% of their salary while laid off!!! That's right ... they get ~$22/hr to SIT AT HOME AND DO NOTHING. That is the real kick in the pants to me!!!

Now to the main point in this thread ... what will happen to all the Pontiacs in Pro Stock ... the same thing that happened when Oldsmobile pulled out ... NOTHING. All the guys running the Pontiac brand will move to another GM brand ... in this case ... Chevy. Or they will continue to run their Pontiacs ... per NHRA rules they will have 5 years before they age out. Where it will hurt is on the back end that we don't fans don't see ... like Jim Yates said ... no more free cylinder heads or engine blocks ... no more engineering support. It may force a couple of cars to park, but I think car counts will stay reasonably close to where they are now, there will just be less diversity in the cars we see on the track.

 

[none]

Jim, I don't know where you got that number, but it is WAYYY off. I have 2 VERY good friends that I went to high school with in Kentucky that work at the largest plant in the world, the Ford Kentucky Truck Assembly plant where they build everything from F250s/350s all the way up to the big rigs. We graduated in '92, they started at Ford in '93 and they make ~$28/hr. They are both in the UAW (obviously). They started at $19/hr in '93. Line supervisors make in the $40-42/hr range, but my friends are WAY down the seniority list for that type of promotion, even with 15 years in. .[/ QUOTE]

They are still way down the seniority list because although many workers have died, the union was able to negotiate for them to keep their jobs for a while longer.........

My dad used to say that unions are like drug addicts, too much is never enough........he used to say a lot more but no sense in getting the mods involved

 

[HEMI6point1]

Those guys work with dangerous machines all day, they deserve to make that much. Oh, and to say they don't deserve benefits is crazy!

Gotta love some people's mentality of "lets cater to the corporations and screw the employees."

 

[none]

or lets cater to the unions and then the corporations can't compete. Then all the jobs go to other countries and the house of cards all fall down......give me a break. Dangerous machines

 

[HEMI6point1]

Would you rather have them work in an "employment at will" type of atmosphere? Let me tell you, I work in such a state. It's not fun to constantly have this fear that your boss could (just as an example) fire you for smiling at her the wrong way.

 

[Johnny Mopar]

GM could not only keep Pontiac but even bring back Oldsmobile if they could kick the UAW to the curb and hire all new workers starting at a fraction of what a UAW worker does today and the economy is ripe for that. The UAW has struck so many times for increased wages, pensions, benefits, sick days, vacation days, holidays, mother-in-law's birthdays, etc. that competing with foreign automakers is a failed business plan any way you view it. Restructuring compensations from the top to the line workers would turn this auto industry so far around that Ford could even produce the Edsel again at a profit.

Without a restructuring, Pontiac will be this year's tragedy and we'll count the days for the rest of them until we are all driving Chinese junk.

Bobby,

You've hit the nail on the head! Decades of Union greed have created an invironment where our domestic manufacturers can't compete. I have an uncle (in-law) that was part of the Ford buyout of the St Louis plant a few years ago. He was tenured enough he said they couldn't fire him. He bragged about hiding while on the clock. He made over $70,000.00 a year...hiding! There are similar stories about the St Louis Chrysler plant...which is now closed. Go figure!

They've simply priced themselves out of the market.

 

[Jenn]

Would you rather have them work in an "employment at will" type of atmosphere? Let me tell you, I work in such a state. It's not fun to constantly have this fear that your boss could (just as an example) fire you for smiling at her the wrong way.

You have GOT to be kidding!?!?!

 

[clwill]

the Denali line is considered by many to be "an Escalade on sale." A loaded Yukon XL Denali is close to $63K while the Escalade ESV is nearly $74K.

And your odds of having the Denali stolen are about 1/10th that of the Escalade

 

[rollingthunder]

An while your at it take every bonus and perk from every management person in the auto industry. It is this kind of talk is why the unions are important. The complaining is coming from someone who make big money trying to keep the middle class down. There is no man worth 25 million dollars a yr to sit behind a desk and delegate what gets done and what doesn't get done. The idea of a dollar a year for the heads of the big 3 should hold true and the works can give up some. Soon or later the works have to stand up for themselves.

 

[HEMI6point1]

You have GOT to be kidding!?!?!

Are you referring to the work at will statement or the comment about my floor manager?

 

[Jenn]

Are you referring to the work at will statement or the comment about my floor manager?

Your 'work in fear' comment.

If you feel that your job is in such jeopardy, then you either know you aren't doing your job well enough that you can be fired so easily, or you've been warned about other items before.

There are some employees that at 7.20 an hour, are being paid 7 dollars too much. They don't want a job, they don't want to work, they just want money.

I have the right to fire employees that aren't doing their job up to standard regardless of their age or how long they've worked for me. If I've told them to shape up or ship off, and they don't. They will be shipped.

I don't want to give three chances or 300 chances to people who consistently screw up or disrespect myself, my customers or my other employees. If you give my customers attitude and I don't like it, I warn you, and you do it again, pack up your toolbox and pick up your check on Wednesday.

If an employee is guaranteed a job, regardless of his behavior, performance, or his appearance, how much regard do you think he'll put to those aspects?

How many times have people said to you 'Well, you can be a little bit late and be okay" and then you stop and get yourself a drink because you know you can be okay with being late?

 

[HEMI6point1]

Actually I'm well regarded by my co-workers and the managers as being one of the better techs, and I always get high customer service scores. It's just that I know I can be fired for anything, so that's why I said that.

 

[mick]

not very hard to find online - big three's wages + benefits + compensation
average in $70's/hour while toyota, nissan & honda average $50/hr.
with no plans for wage cuts for their USA plants / USA/UAW employees.

workers and managment, better figure it out quick; already moving
in same direction as television industry.
don't hear anyone bragging about their 'american made' TV anymore
.....and many other electronics for that matter.

 

[Vince]

not very hard to find online - big three's wages + benefits + compensation
average in $70's/hour while toyota, nissan & honda average $50/hr.
with no plans for wage cuts for their USA plants / USA/UAW employees.

You're right on target. ABC evening news just did a story about this. The UAW just had a big meeting to try and avoid losing 20-30,000 jobs next year as the big three are currently talking about. The UAW talked about all kinds of "concessions" that they would be willing to make to the manufacturers. Amazingly to me, none of the "concessions" involved cutting back their salaries or benefits. Heaven forbid they should work for a little less. The report stated that the "Big three" workers make an average of $74 per hour in wages + benefits, while the workers in the USA that are employed by the Japanese companies are making on average $44 per hour in wages and benefits. It comes down to approximately $1,500 per vehicle difference.

The one that really made me sit up and shake my head in disbelief is an agreement that a UAW worker who has been laid off can collect 95% of his salary while on layoff. Huh? Not a bad gig, collecting 95% of your salary for sitting at home. No wonder they're going bankrupt.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

 

[The Counterfeiter]

You're right on target. ABC evening news just did a story about this. The UAW just had a big meeting to try and avoid losing 20-30,000 jobs next year as the big three are currently talking about. The UAW talked about all kinds of "concessions" that they would be willing to make to the manufacturers. Amazingly to me, none of the "concessions" involved cutting back their salaries or benefits. Heaven forbid they should work for a little less. The report stated that the "Big three" workers make an average of $74 per hour in wages + benefits, while the workers in the USA that are employed by the Japanese companies are making on average $44 per hour in wages and benefits. It comes down to approximately $1,500 per vehicle difference.

The one that really made me sit up and shake my head in disbelief is an agreement that a UAW worker who has been laid off can collect 95% of his salary while on layoff. Huh? Not a bad gig, collecting 95% of your salary for sitting at home. No wonder they're going bankrupt.

Chris - any more questions about the $75/hr issue? My figure came from CNN.com/financial several weeks ago. One more time . . . if American manufacturers don't get out of these contracts, no amount of bailout will save them. The unions brought this on themselves with never ending demands to justify why members pay dues. As far as dangerous working conditions, have you ever seen what steel workers endure? Auto manufacturers have spent billions to make assembly lines safer and more ergonomic. As always - JMHO

 

[Demon]

Not the Chris you asked for,but I'll post my opinion... there is NO way that those workers are getting $75/hr.I'm willing to bet that figure also includes the benefits that the worker also pays part of.

My employer sends me a yearly statement saying how much my "salary" actually is because of their contributions,which includes SSI and the other benefits that I pay my share of,which most of it is 1/2.No complaints,but lets be real about what the actual pay is.

Can't really blame the unions either as they originated to protect the worker.Greed on BOTH sides is to blame for how things are today.

 

[clwill]

Not the Chris you asked for,but I'll post my opinion... there is NO way that those workers are getting $75/hr.I'm willing to bet that figure also includes the benefits that the worker also pays part of.

My employer sends me a yearly statement saying how much my "salary" actually is because of their contributions,which includes SSI and the other benefits that I pay my share of,which most of it is 1/2.No complaints,but lets be real about what the actual pay is.

I've been on the other side -- creating those Total Compensation statements for a Fortune 500. The number includes what they pay -- your salary and bonus, their match of your 401K (or your defined benefit plan), their 1/2 of FISA, their workers comp payments, their unemployment tax contribution, their part of the health insurance, disability, etc., and on and on. It doesn't include amounts you pay (e.g. your part of FISA, your copays, etc.). The reason we sent them is that many employees only think of their take home, but to the company it's often 3X that amount. At the company I worked for, salary and bonus was ~28% of the total compensation.

But, it doesn't matter what the number is, as long as the number for the big three vs. the rest is calculated the same. As it is, we're looking at something approaching twice the cost in Detroit. That's gotta hurt the company's competitiveness.

 

[Nitrohaulic]

Buick is the one that really has me confused. I can't think of one good reason to keep the badge. I would think Saturn would stay and Buick could go. There would be no need to sell the Solstice any longer , the Sky was better looking anyway(just a queer name). But hey, I'm not in marketing. Hummer & Saab dump for sure.

If you get rid of Buick, what will all those old timers over 50 buy? Have you EVER seen anyone under 50 buy a new Buick?

When I come up on a slow one and look in the back window, it's usually got the baseball cap with ears sticking out on one side and the gray ball/head of hair on the other.

Just cut all three by using the old bellhousing acronym. Buick, Olds, Pontiac. BOP What better corporate thinking than that? It's why some of us have jets.