Hood scoops are back in Pro Stock! (3 Viewers)

[GumbyWVU]

As I’ve said before, once NHRA started their weight breaks in 1972, that were heavily in favor of the SBC, that effectively killed the Hemis.
Wally Parks later admitted that was a mistake.
How does mister red letter explain why only DRCE engines are now the only powerplant being used? Why did NHRA change the rules mandating the engine must match the car? They knew they the Fords and Mopars were not going to introduce new engine platforms.
So NHRA got away from the original intent of Pro Stock and changed the rules allowing any engine in any body, knowing only DRCE engines would be used.
Yes, Mopars had a good run in the early 500 c.i. era while NHRA may have left things alone for a while.
Allen and Roy Johnson did a great job representing Mopars, often times being the only Mopar, and it was hurtful when they decided to leave the class.
For those 34 years there really only one successful Mopar team.
After that, the RPM limit was instituted only because the DRCE engines were apparently killing their valve springs trying to wind that high. But the Mopars needed that extra RPM. Hence the rule change that adversely affected only the Mopars.
The spec fuel was another change that seemingly negatively affected only Mopars.
How about allowing the engines to run as many RPM as they want, and allowing the use of the fuel previously utilized?
I do have one question because I just don’t know the answer; has there ever been a rule change in Pro Stock that negatively affected only those with DRCE powerplants?
But, just like the discussion of wanting to return to the 1/4 mile for fuel cars, discussing wanting to see Pro Stock getting back to its roots, that poor horse is dead, and I’m not going to beat on it any more.

Not trying to poke/jab anyone, but I have an honest question - You state the fuel spec "seemingly" was negative towards Mopar.

It either did or didn't. My question - what were the specifics of said change and what evidence exists as to why would only Mopar be affected (if at all)? I'd genuinely like to understand.

 

[GumbyWVU]

As I’ve said before, once NHRA started their weight breaks in 1972, that were heavily in favor of the SBC, that effectively killed the Hemis.
Wally Parks later admitted that was a mistake.
How does mister red letter explain why only DRCE engines are now the only powerplant being used? Why did NHRA change the rules mandating the engine must match the car? They knew they the Fords and Mopars were not going to introduce new engine platforms.
So NHRA got away from the original intent of Pro Stock and changed the rules allowing any engine in any body, knowing only DRCE engines would be used.
Yes, Mopars had a good run in the early 500 c.i. era while NHRA may have left things alone for a while.
Allen and Roy Johnson did a great job representing Mopars, often times being the only Mopar, and it was hurtful when they decided to leave the class.
For those 34 years there really only one successful Mopar team.
After that, the RPM limit was instituted only because the DRCE engines were apparently killing their valve springs trying to wind that high. But the Mopars needed that extra RPM. Hence the rule change that adversely affected only the Mopars.
The spec fuel was another change that seemingly negatively affected only Mopars.
How about allowing the engines to run as many RPM as they want, and allowing the use of the fuel previously utilized?
I do have one question because I just don’t know the answer; has there ever been a rule change in Pro Stock that negatively affected only those with DRCE powerplants?
But, just like the discussion of wanting to return to the 1/4 mile for fuel cars, discussing wanting to see Pro Stock getting back to its roots, that poor horse is dead, and I’m not going to beat on it any more.

"They knew they the Fords and Mopars were not going to introduce new engine platforms."

.....but did they go ahead - at least Ford - and develop new ones anyhow? Again, just trying to understand the history here.

Is there evidence that NHRA did that knowing the claim made, that Ford/Mopar weren't going to develop new ones? Seems to me they would regardless because of overall changes in tech, the market, etc. I mean GM did, and why didn't the other two (or a "foreign" car manuf.) pursue their own version of DRCE?

I've heard these stories but would like to know more, not just the apocryphal aspect many seem to have. I'm sure others here would too.

 

[ironpony]

Not trying to poke/jab anyone, but I have an honest question - You state the fuel spec "seemingly" was negative towards Mopar.

It either did or didn't. My question - what were the specifics of said change and what evidence exists as to why would only Mopar be affected (if at all)? I'd genuinely like to understand.

The shape of the HEMI head did not squish the fuel enough to get a uniform burn pattern causing HP loss. It was also well known the HEMI was spinning up to a higher RPM to make a little more power, some say even more than 500 RPM more. Before the rule change the class was running very even, MOPAR won, GM won, GM more just based on car count.

 

[none]

Ted,

I agree that the weight break era was a nightmare, but as you stated it started 54 yeas ago. It ended 44 years ago. That has no bearing on what is happening today.

You also state that "They were heavily in favor of the SBC" If that's true then it didn't work very well. Because Bob Glidden won titles with a Ford in 74, 75, 78, and 80. He also won one in a Plymouth in 79, when he got pissed about the weight breaks on the Ford. Wayne Gapp (Pinto 73) And Don Nicholson (Mustang II 77) Also won championships. In the ten year weight break era GM only won the title three times. So as I said, if NHRA was making rules to help GM win, they sucked at it.

When the rules changed in 1982 everyone was on the same level field, and it was quickly determined that the traditional HEMI is not as efficient in a naturally aspirated gas burning platform. The Wedge is better. A big dome on the piston is not conducive to that style of engine for a couple of reasons, but it's the only way to get the compression you need. That's difficult (or impossible) to overcome. When Wayne County started winning that was a wedge, not because they didn't like the HEMI, because it wouldn't work.

GM also supported many different teams, while MOPAR usually just provided factory support for one. So there was much more R&D happening on the GM stuff.

When the rev-limiter rule came in the engines were in the 12,000 RPM range and everybody was spending a fortune on valve springs (not just GM) and with the new EFI package being implemented they decided to set a rev limit as well trying to save the teams money. And it worked for a short time. Racers being racers they just developed bigger cams. Not sure how many people are aware that 1.250 lift is a real thing.

And yes, it did hurt the MOPAR more, but I do not believe that was the intent of the rule, I don't think it was even considered. MOPAR was having the exact same spring issues (major expense) that GM was. MOPAR had won one championship in 22 years and that was 4 years prior. Why would that make anybody think they needed a rule to hurt them? MOPAR needed to develop a new cylinder head and they didn't do it.

The DRCE was introduced after the 500 CI era began, and there was no rule that applied to it, just as there was no rule when MOPAR introduced the HEMI 99. The only rule change since then is the one we are discussing now. And the EFI didn't help them. KB figured it out the quickest, but it did slow everyone down.

I agree fully on one point, Pro Stock left it's roots a long time ago, and it's not going back. But I for one still appreciate the performance of no power adders and spec fuel class.

And I would be happy to buy the first round if we ever had a chance to discuss it in person. The things that I learned and witnessed working in the Pro Stock shop are pretty amazing.


One quick add, the modern PS HEMI is not a HEMI at all, the only thing HEMI about it is the name.

Alan

 

[GumbyWVU]

The shape of the HEMI head did not squish the fuel enough to get a uniform burn pattern causing HP loss. It was also well known the HEMI was spinning up to a higher RPM to make a little more power, some say even more than 500 RPM more. Before the rule change the class was running very even, MOPAR won, GM won, GM more just based on car count.

Very interesting...Piston compression or just how the head itself "breathed"? And there was no way to modify it, like increasing the diameter of the ports? I wonder if Mopar looked at options for their heads. Very interesting. Engineering I find very interesting and I'm certainly not one but went to school with several guys who became one.

Now that you mention it, I think I do vaguely recall some issue about the heads back 10-12 years ago but I can't remember much about what it was.

 

[GumbyWVU]

Ted,

I agree that the weight break era was a nightmare, but as you stated it started 54 yeas ago. It ended 44 years ago. That has no bearing on what is happening today.

You also state that "They were heavily in favor of the SBC" If that's true then it didn't work very well. Because Bob Glidden won titles with a Ford in 74, 75, 78, and 80. He also won one in a Plymouth in 79, when he got pissed about the weight breaks on the Ford. Wayne Gapp (Pinto 73) And Don Nicholson (Mustang II 77) Also won championships. In the ten year weight break era GM only won the title three times. So as I said, if NHRA was making rules to help GM win, they sucked at it.

When the rules changed in 1982 everyone was on the same level field, and it was quickly determined that the traditional HEMI is not as efficient in a naturally aspirated gas burning platform. The Wedge is better. A big dome on the piston is not conducive to that style of engine for a couple of reasons, but it's the only way to get the compression you need. That's difficult (or impossible) to overcome. When Wayne County started winning that was a wedge, not because they didn't like the HEMI, because it wouldn't work.

GM also supported many different teams, while MOPAR usually just provided factory support for one. So there was much more R&D happening on the GM stuff.

When the rev-limiter rule came in the engines were in the 12,000 RPM range and everybody was spending a fortune on valve springs (not just GM) and with the new EFI package being implemented they decided to set a rev limit as well trying to save the teams money. And it worked for a short time. Racers being racers they just developed bigger cams. Not sure how many people are aware that 1.250 lift is a real thing.

And yes, it did hurt the MOPAR more, but I do not believe that was the intent of the rule, I don't think it was even considered. MOPAR was having the exact same spring issues (major expense) that GM was. MOPAR had won one championship in 22 years and that was 4 years prior. Why would that make anybody think they needed a rule to hurt them? MOPAR needed to develop a new cylinder head and they didn't do it.

The DRCE was introduced after the 500 CI era began, and there was no rule that applied to it, just as there was no rule when MOPAR introduced the HEMI 99. The only rule change since then is the one we are discussing now. And the EFI didn't help them. KB figured it out the quickest, but it did slow everyone down.

I agree fully on one point, Pro Stock left it's roots a long time ago, and it's not going back. But I for one still appreciate the performance of no power adders and spec fuel class.

And I would be happy to buy the first round if we ever had a chance to discuss it in person. The things that I learned and witnessed working in the Pro Stock shop are pretty amazing.


One quick add, the modern PS HEMI is not a HEMI at all, the only thing HEMI about it is the name.

Alan

Great info, thanks!

So what happened with the Ford stuff? I've had the impression that Ford in essence just kind of dumped Glidden there at the end. I also just assumed that Ford management just didn't like drag racing and threw their chips behind Nascar.